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Democracy,compatible with huge population

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Democracy,compatible with huge population
    Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 20:24

opuslola, I should never be the subject of a post, unless the thread is about me.  This thread is not about me.  This thread is about democracy and the challenge of governing a large mass.  The USSR and US have gone about this challenge differently, and it would be nice to discuss this difference.  Ideally the workers in the soviet union had economic power through a democratic process.  US industry is modeled after England's autocracy, and the average citizen  sure as hell has not had economic power since WWII, because big business is not controlled by the vote of the masses, and big business rules.  Walmart has the power to close down domestic industries and force companies to establish factories over seas, and few small locally owned stores can successfully compete with Walmart.   We are in an economic crisis and don't have a clue to how to manage it.  So much for our great democracy.  This is the New World Order, and you are not the one with the power. 

As we move from a labor intense industrial economy to a low labor intense technological society, we face major problems.  Since the economies of all industrial nations depends on energy and oil is the most important in the mix of energy for industrial nations, facing the finite reality of oil is a major problem.  Are you prepared to discuss this?  If not, then why to do you think you have anything like political or economic power?  Maybe you and your neighbors can vote on gay rights and the dog catcher, but is this really having political and economic power?   Our voting rights are  like giving a kid a bucket of water and paint brush to help paint the house, and if you think you can argue against this point, please do! 
 
Technocracy has been a controlling factor in our economy since WWII, shouldn't we discuss this?  Or how about defining what is the responsibility of government and who does have the power, and what it is that gives anyone power?  Come on, do you have anything to say about any subject related to the subject of this thread?   
 
About trying to figure me out, life is not a matter of black and whites, but like quantum physics, or if you like, the gods, we can best speak of our reality in complex concepts, that are blends of simpler concepts.   It is many things coming together in different mixes.   What is the best way to empower the people, so that they can best govern themselves?   Name and define a concept, any concept, then we might have a discussion.    The number of people who show up at a demonstration or polical rally, really doesn't matter much.    However, the number of people who shop at Walmart instead of a locally owned store, might explain something relevent to the subject.   Are you going to hire a local tailor to make your clothes, or buy what you need at Walmart?   How do you vote with your money?   What is the source of your money and what gives you the power to get that money from the source?  
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 20:30
Originally posted by opuslola


Just when can I be expected to report to your progressive re-education camp?


Never, because it such things dont, and wont, exist. The only people who believe in such fantasies are those who want an excuse to commit horrible crimes in the future. You want to believe that minorities and progressives are a threat because, in your ideal world, you'd simply like to do away with all of them.

The parallels between Hitlers movement and Becks movement are amazingly similar:

-find scapegoats
-manipulate the masses with fear mongering
-create hate and anger
-convince the majority that minorities are out to get them and destroy their country
- etc.. etc...

Dont you find the similarities astonishing?

Just look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you so blindly believe and follow a man like Beck when neither he nor you have any evidence to back up any of the outrageous beliefs who hold on to.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 31-Aug-2010 at 20:30
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 21:23
When I look at my face in the mirror, I see an aged Native American with most of my life behind me!

You also wrote a series of things designed to make me look like a racist pig! Because you equated Beck's movement with that of Hitler!

You then wrote; "Dont you find the similarities astonishing?"

Absolutely not! There exist no similarities between the two other than those that exist in your warped and racist, hateful mind!


And angered I am!

As I have stated numerous times in the past, you are the "Troll under the Bridge!"

And, you should be banned!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 21:27
Carolus, I am sorry but I still cannot define just where you stand? Maybe you are standing in the middle of the road?

Perhaps, you should step to one side or the other before you get run over?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 23:40
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by opuslola


Just when can I be expected to report to your progressive re-education camp?


Never, because it such things dont, and wont, exist. The only people who believe in such fantasies are those who want an excuse to commit horrible crimes in the future. You want to believe that minorities and progressives are a threat because, in your ideal world, you'd simply like to do away with all of them.

The parallels between Hitlers movement and Becks movement are amazingly similar:

-find scapegoats
-manipulate the masses with fear mongering
-create hate and anger
-convince the majority that minorities are out to get them and destroy their country
- etc.. etc...

Dont you find the similarities astonishing?

Just look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you so blindly believe and follow a man like Beck when neither he nor you have any evidence to back up any of the outrageous beliefs who hold on to.
 
Okay who is Bek scapegoating? 
 
What does Beck say we have to fear?
 
Who or what is suppose be the target of hate and fear? 
 
What did a minority do that threatens the mojority?
 
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 00:00
Originally posted by opuslola

When I look at my face in the mirror, I see an aged Native American with most of my life behind me!


Native American...sure.

Originally posted by opuslola

Because you equated Beck's movement with that of Hitler!


If the shoe fits. Plus, Beck makes the perfect Nazi Aryan.LOL

Originally posted by opuslola


Absolutely not! There exist no similarities between the two other than those that exist in your warped and racist, hateful mind!


Denial denial denial.....

Originally posted by Carol

 
Okay who is Bek scapegoating?


Liberals, progressives, minorities
 
Originally posted by Carol


What does Beck say we have to fear?


"communism", "socialism", Islam, blacks, illegal immigrants, gays, healthcare, etc...
 
Originally posted by Carol


Who or what is suppose be the target of hate and fear?


Those who do not agree with the conservative ultra religious conservative world view
 
Originally posted by Carol


What did a minority do that threatens the mojority?
 


Beck and conservatives are claiming that minorities are planning on setting up death camps, re-education camps, (like the one Opuslola mentioned), secret armies, taking money away from whites to give to minorities, killing white babies, etc... etc...

Remember when Hitler also blamed minorities for Germany's problems and decay, and how Hitler scared the masses into following him and over looking mass murder and genocide? Is this where Beck is headed? I think so.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 01-Sep-2010 at 00:12
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 00:16
Originally posted by opuslola

Carolus, I am sorry but I still cannot define just where you stand? Maybe you are standing in the middle of the road?

Perhaps, you should step to one side or the other before you get run over?
 
Hum where do I stand?  I belief democracy is to be understood as rule by reason.  It is based on the belief that humans can learn and reason, and that the universe is the result of cause and effect, which we can understand by studying nature.   That when humans come to understand the causes and effects, they can govern themselves.   Democracy leads to the highest morality, because it is understood if we do wrong, bad things will happen, and that is why we should choose for what is right.   Our liberty is all about the choosing what is right.   That does not mean being passive or tolerant when someone chooses what is wrong.  When someone chooses wrong, s/he must be held accountable for the consequences.  What happens to us, is the result of our choices, not a God's whims.  
 
There are two ways to have social order, culture or authority over the people.  We speak poorly of the Soviet Union because athough it practiced a degree of democracy, it was actually very authoritarian, and so was the German republic authoritarian.   However, we did model our industry after England's autocracy and Christianity supports autocracy, so without education for democracy, the US can not possibly manifest democracy.   For economic and religious reasons, it is autocratic, and the further we get from education for democracy, the more authoritarian we become. 
 
Please understand we are having a disucssion of if democracy is compatiable with a huge population, without mentioning any democratic principles and how they are manifest.  We aren't even near the road,  Opuslola, but complete lost in a desert with terrorist and demons, and throwing stones at each other.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 01:17
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by Carol

 
Okay who is Bek scapegoating?


Liberals, progressives, minorities
 
Originally posted by Carol


What does Beck say we have to fear?


"communism", "socialism", Islam, blacks, illegal immigrants, gays, healthcare, etc...
 
Originally posted by Carol


Who or what is suppose be the target of hate and fear?


Those who do not agree with the conservative ultra religious conservative world view
 
Originally posted by Carol


What did a minority do that threatens the mojority?
 


Beck and conservatives are claiming that minorities are planning on setting up death camps, re-education camps, (like the one Opuslola mentioned), secret armies, taking money away from whites to give to minorities, killing white babies, etc... etc...

Remember when Hitler also blamed minorities for Germany's problems and decay, and how Hitler scared the masses into following him and over looking mass murder and genocide? Is this where Beck is headed? I think so.
 
Beck sounds pretty bad.  We have so much work to do.  The Christian agenda is not compatible with democracy.  
 
I did not personally experince Hitler and NAZI Germany.  I do know Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire, and the Protestant Reformation Movement, and that it was not lack of Christianity that made Germany our enemy.  I do know the US has adopted the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purpose. 
I know when Reagan said we do not need to conserve, he was lying to us.  The only way to meet our growing need for oil, was to import it, and our need to important oil, became our need to be the same New World Order leader that Hilter's Germany attempted to be.  You know the New World Order that Bush Senior bragged is ours, and George Bush Junior and Cheney tried to promote, labeling it the New American Century Project, and planning the military control of mid east oil countries long before 9/11.   
 
I know, Iran had a democratically elected leader and the Eisenhower administration used the CIA to incite a rebellion and replaced him with the US pick for leader of Iran and that this guy was a brutal leader, and unlike the Iraqi, the Iranians rebelled against this US picked leader and threw him out.   This was not the only brutal leader backed by the US.  Saddam was also supported by the US, and Ben Laden was supported by the US.  When Bush talked about the US leading the New World Order, he was talking about the US being a Military-Industrial Complex capable of defending its economic interest around the world, with completely knieve US citizens paying the tab. 
 
I know if it had not been for Eisenhower establishing the Military-Industrial Complex, our reality would be completely different today. 
 
I know when Reagan took office, research on poverty disappears from the abstracts and there is a complete shift to research on welfare fraud.   Within a year the result of biased research was used to scapegoat the poor for our ecomonic troubles, as surely as Germany scapegoated the Jews.  Both the German and US agend was to slash domestic budgets and pour money into military spending, so that the military could be used for economic purpose.  That is, for the control of the New World Order. 
 
It is difficult to discuss such things when this information is unfamiliar to those I try to discuss such things with.   I think we really need to ask what is the responsibility of government, before we can tackle the question of this thread.   Is it the responsibility of a democratic government to use its military force to defend the nation's economic interest around the world, and who pays for this? 
For darn sure the agenda of the Republic party has not been happy families and living within our means.   Texas oil backed Eisenhower, Reagan and Bush and Bush.   Texas education strongly promoted racism and is Christian controlled.   Beck's agenda should get international attendion, because it is the foundation for war.  
 
Opuslola, you seem proud to tell us you are Native American.  What is your tribe and how do the tribal values square with the Christian New World Order? 
 


Edited by Carol - 01-Sep-2010 at 01:27
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 01:27
Originally posted by opuslola

I would rather be called "foolish" by you than "God" by another! After all you have self appointed yourself as the "only recognized expert" at this site!

Hail TGS, Hail, TGS!. etc.!

Just when can I be expected to report to your progressive re-education camp?
 
 
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 07:05
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Hitler's party NSDAP had 36,8 % of votes in 1932 elections, so not majority. Hitler also lost presidential elections with Paul von Hindenburg.
 
That was in 1933. By 1939, The Germany people, for the most part, supported Hitler.
 
 
Yeah, but all those who didnt support Hitler were by 1939 dead, in concentration camps or abroad. That helped to increase people's support. But still there was hidden opposition which was looking for cooperation with the British and trying to kill or remove Hitler from power - eg. admiral Canaris and his men.
 
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by Mosquito

 
 As for the bolsheviks they didnt have majority in all the Russia, they just had the support of soldiers and navy in St. Petersburg what gave them power in the way of armed rebellion.


Again, this is wishful thinking. The Bolsheviks had the support of the majority of the Russian people, which included the military and navy. In fact, the Bolsheviks had so much legitimacy amongst the people that a coalition of Western powers aiding the White Army could not defeat them.
 
 
Yeah, and because of that great support of the people the Bolsheviks had to create Vecheka and introduce the great terror. I would rather say that all the leftist parties had together the majority so Bolsheviks had first to murder all other socialists. And dont forget that Poland could have finished the Bolsheviks. Polish leader marshal Pilsudski has stopped his armies after victory because he considered that time white Russia as worse enemy of Poland than the Bolsheviks. He just refused all French and British proposals.
 
 


Edited by Mosquito - 01-Sep-2010 at 07:11
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 10:38
It seems hard to really grasp the entire revolution and civil war that existed in Russia.

But, perhaps the human experience such as is found in in the nnovel, "Dr. Zhivago", or "Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (born 1918), author, Nobel Prize for Literature, 'One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich'", or any of Ayn Rand's works would be a fine place to begin an investigation?

Certainly it would be hard for anyone to really investigate the internal mechanisms of the various Socialists factions, the Red and White armies, etc., since so much information has probably been destroyed in the intervening years.

Edited by opuslola - 01-Sep-2010 at 10:44
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 11:00
TGS wrote above;

"Beck and conservatives are claiming that minorities are planning on setting up death camps, re-education camps, (like the one Opuslola mentioned), secret armies, taking money away from whites to give to minorities, killing white babies, etc... etc...

Remember when Hitler also blamed minorities for Germany's problems and decay, and how Hitler scared the masses into following him and over looking mass murder and genocide? Is this where Beck is headed? I think so."

I will just substitute a few words and explain what the Obama administration has done or plans to do.

Obama, or his minions and advisors, are claiming that White Christians are planning on setting up death camps, re-education camps, (like the one Opuslola mentioned), secret armies, taking money away from Government programs to give to faith based groups, killing non-producing babies, etc... etc...

Remember when Woodrow Wilson also blamed minorities for America's problems and decay, and how Wilson scared the masses into following him into WW I, and over looking mass murder and genocide? Is this where Obama's advisors are headed? I think so.


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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 11:31
Considering the very title of this thread, "Democracy, compatible with huge population", it might be somewhat enlightening to see and listen to this video?

I call it Marx, Engels, Stalin, Hitler, progressives, Fabians and G. Bernard Shaw!

Perhaps it might explain my constant reference to death camps, or re-education camps, as a tenent of Progressivism?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw7DtjO4V6c&feature=related

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 13:07
 Opuslola, now you are taking ignorance way too far.  FEMA camps have been a reality long before Obama took office.  If you want to discuss them along with Home Land Security and parallels with NAZI Germany, I am open to such discussion.  Before the second world war, people in the US did not think in these terms, however, the war got our attention, and we recruited as many Germans who could help us imitate Germany as we could.  The CIA and FEMA and our space program and weapons technology are some of the results.  This includes changes in public education, and changes in governments relationships with the media and research. 
 
But to twist all this into Obama's death camps, is gross ignorance, and for what purpose?  I wonder why someone has started rumors like this?  I have dial up and U tube takes too long to down load.  Perhaps you can tell me who twisting the truth of FEMA camps, into "Obama's death camps" and all that racist BS?    I am reminded of the books that warned of the dangers of government's new powers.  Such books were the result of government changes brought about during the Roosevelt administration, with the help of Hoover.  May be that is where we should start this discussion?  Apprepriate infromation is surely needed.  FEMA camps could become the horror of the NAZI Germany, but they are not Obama's creation.  Nor is there any  rational reason to fear Obama would use them for racist purposes.  What we should fear is the mass ignorance that leads to believing the BS some people are spreading around.   
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 13:27
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Hitler's party NSDAP had 36,8 % of votes in 1932 elections, so not majority. Hitler also lost presidential elections with Paul von Hindenburg.
 
That was in 1933. By 1939, The Germany people, for the most part, supported Hitler.
 
 
Yeah, but all those who didnt support Hitler were by 1939 dead, in concentration camps or abroad. That helped to increase people's support. But still there was hidden opposition which was looking for cooperation with the British and trying to kill or remove Hitler from power - eg. admiral Canaris and his men.
 
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by Mosquito

 
 As for the bolsheviks they didnt have majority in all the Russia, they just had the support of soldiers and navy in St. Petersburg what gave them power in the way of armed rebellion.


Again, this is wishful thinking. The Bolsheviks had the support of the majority of the Russian people, which included the military and navy. In fact, the Bolsheviks had so much legitimacy amongst the people that a coalition of Western powers aiding the White Army could not defeat them.
 
 
Yeah, and because of that great support of the people the Bolsheviks had to create Vecheka and introduce the great terror. I would rather say that all the leftist parties had together the majority so Bolsheviks had first to murder all other socialists. And dont forget that Poland could have finished the Bolsheviks. Polish leader marshal Pilsudski has stopped his armies after victory because he considered that time white Russia as worse enemy of Poland than the Bolsheviks. He just refused all French and British proposals.
 
 
 
War is insanity and  the BS Opuslola is spreading is how such wars happen.  Another forum put my post about the Military Industrial Complex in the conspiracy forum and than banned me for protesting this, on the grounds it was disrespectful and discredited what I was saying.  Eisenhower was public and clear about the reality of the Military Industrial Comlex.  The changes in government power are something we should discuss.  However, we need to be rational about this, and we need to be well informed with facts.  We need to trust whatever changes are made, they are made with good intensions, and then wiegh the benefits against possible problems.  We need to be aware that these changes come about over a period of time, due to world changes or consciousness changes that can not be avoided.  They are like Pandora and the box of miseries that can not be stuffed back into the box once they escape.  We need to be well informed, just as much as the people of Iraq and Afghanistan who caught up in a changing world they do not understand.  Failure to be well informed and spreading BS like  Opuslola has done, can lead to mass hysteria, especially when an economy is detriotating and stress is building.   Under these conditions people cling to what matters most to them, be this a religious belief or a racist belief or economic/social justice belief, and hysteria can spread like wild fire. 


Edited by Carol - 01-Sep-2010 at 13:30
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 14:40
Originally posted by opuslola

Considering the very title of this thread, "Democracy, compatible with huge population", it might be somewhat enlightening to see and listen to this video?

I call it Marx, Engels, Stalin, Hitler, progressives, Fabians and G. Bernard Shaw!

Perhaps it might explain my constant reference to death camps, or re-education camps, as a tenent of Progressivism?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw7DtjO4V6c&feature=related

 
I would like to see it but this video is not avaible for ppl watching you tube in my country. Is it possible to watch it not on you tube? (its against Polish law to spread nazi and communist ideology).
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 14:54
Originally posted by opuslola



Obama, or his minions and advisors, are claiming that White Christians are planning on setting up death camps, re-education camps, (like the one Opuslola mentioned), secret armies, taking money away from Government programs to give to faith based groups, killing non-producing babies, etc... etc...


Never has Obama made such claims. You are delusional, seriously, your must not be sane if you believe any of Beck's racist neo-Nazi ideology.

Originally posted by opuslola


Remember when Woodrow Wilson also blamed minorities for America's problems and decay, and how Wilson scared the masses into following him into WW I, and over looking mass murder and genocide? Is this where Obama's advisors are headed? I think so.




Again, never happened.

On the other hand, however, BECK AND NEOCONS HAVE MADE SUCH CLAIMS. The new Hitler and the new NAZI'S are forming right in front of our eyes, Opuslola will let it happen and gladly join, so its up to us to prevent the future massacres and genocides from happening.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 15:17
TGS wrote;

"On the other hand, however, BECK AND NEOCONS HAVE MADE SUCH CLAIMS. The new Hitler and the new NAZI'S are forming right in front of our eyes, Opuslola will let it happen and gladly join, so its up to us to prevent the future massacres and genocides from happening."

So, TGS are you personally going to eliminate me and others like me? Or will you depend upon the Facists in the Democrat Party to do it for you? Of course if you and those Facists like you actually do "prevent us from doing some future act", then you will likely not use the words "massacre" or "genocide" when these deeds occur, I would bet you would be more Fabian in your explanations, stating that "re-education" could not be obtained with these people, and euthanasia was administered to the poor beings for the good of society as well as their own!

Yeah, that will make it all seem much cleaner and refreshing to the other little Facists who will follow you!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 15:27
Mosquito wrote;

" (its against Polish law to spread nazi and communist ideology)."

But, Mosquito, it is anti-communist and Nazi! What a shame you cannot see it!

Look just try to search for George Bernard Shaw,and his speeches, etc.? In the video, he merely suggests that Non-producing people should be exterminated!   

But G. Bernad Shaw is also a hero of modern "Progressives!", W. Wilson and other modern progressives loved him and the Fabian Society!

By the way he also promoted the development of a humane gas to exterminate the un-useful!

Regards,

Sorry your society is so "supressive!" It will be the same here soon if people like TGS are allowed to control everything! A whole lot of American freedom of speech is already discounted and rejected as being "not politically correct!"

See, soon we might well have the same restrictions as does your state!

Regards,

Let Freedom Ring!
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 15:30
Originally posted by Carol

Democracy leads to the highest morality, because it is understood if we do wrong, bad things will happen, and that is why we should choose for what is right.  
 
Your version of democracy seems pretty authoritarian as well.  For example,  an elite cadre of paternalistic scholars guides society towards the "right" choices based on a "scientific" reason analysis of cause and effect. Then factor in the possibility of the exclusion of contrary views (To be part of the scholar elite, one's reason must always yield pre-conceived results). 
 
Sure, conservative Christianity tends to be authoratarian, but then so are many secular progressives (freedom to make the "right" choices only).
  
Originally posted by Carol

However, we did model our industry after England's autocracy and Christianity supports autocracy, so without education for democracy, the US can not possibly manifest democracy.  
Your thought process seems to be....  
- "Democracy" under a particular definition is a worthy goal that leads to morality and harmony with nature. 
-Christianity inhibits man's march towards the goal
-Christianity must be supressed to realize this goal, even if a large number of the population freely chooses it.  They have made the "wrong" choice so their choice is not valid and does not represent "democracy".  
 
Originally posted by Carol

Hum where do I stand?  I belief democracy is to be understood as rule by reason.  It is based on the belief that humans can learn and reason, and that the universe is the result of cause and effect, which we can understand by studying nature.  
 
We may or may not be able to learn good government by studying nature as nature is morally neuteral.  It may be advantegous for a pack of animals to abandon those who are elderly, young,  handicapped or low IQ as they inhibit the efficiency of the pack. Should we do likewise?     
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 01-Sep-2010 at 21:03
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