Algerian Genocide!!!

Originally posted by Maharbbal � Ankara should stay quite as the French government is their best ally in their bid for the EU.

Dude, I have farily short time so I will not be able to answer all of your points.

But..I wonder......are you for real?

I mean it was THE DOMINANT CLASS in France who always tried to hinder the Turkish accession to the EU..It  has always beenthe dominant class in  France who tries to bring the issues of Cyprus and Armenian allegations before Turkey.

and isnt it the dominant class in France who says that it will hold referendum so that Turkey can not join the EU?

BrO, You foind the oposition of Ankara disgusting.... But I, in the name of humanity, find the position of Paris ultra-disgusting.... No only became they are hostile to Turkey on every occasion, but the dominant class in Paris is clealy paving the way for making French and Turkish human beings enemies..

back to the thread, I think healing the past wounds will always be painful...

But this historical evidence shows us that at elat France has no moral authority to lecture the  others

No , no , do not deflect the issue , neither Turkiye nor France has totalitarian governments , we 're discussing about 2 secularist - law based Social Republician states here .

   

Mordoth...Do not even lose your time on an Armenian.It's not worth you know...Better talk to a wall,it makes more sense !!!Let them call it genocide or whatever as it will not change anything for us...
These people can only talk but do nothing..If they want to live in the past,let them live...I wonder what they will talk about 50 years later???
   Anyway my last word...if they were a little bit smart,their people in armenia wouldn't be eating their shoes for lunch!!!

This is not history, this is current affairs. Nothing but politics, and how nice to see that most just sit up and wag their tails when the politicians speak.

Marhabbal
Good joke unfortunately for you I know perfectly the story and I'd suggest you to reconsider your position. If you consider the Barbarossa brothers and the other Turkish Gazis were welcomed in North Africa, you should read the way they've taken Algier by force and beheaded some of the most influencial chiefs of the area...

In case you forgot Barbaross was invited by the Algerians to battle against the Spanish and French, they weren't a Colony, Algeria was not colonised, it was not culturally forced to change, Algerians caried on being Algerians.

Algers was not taken by force, would you stop trying to re-invent history.

Well proud or not it is still colonization...

Go find out what Colonization means before throwing such words around.

For the law you're right this law WAS disgusting. It had been canceled.

Cancelled? there still pushing for its recognition, if they get the chance they'd implement it tomorrow and teach about how glorious their "colonialism" was to little Algerian, North African and other African kids



For the colony this is a stupid comment. Belgium had only one and they killed one million people.

They killed a million Africans so oooh that's fine, lets forget about it.

Another case of hypocrasy and double-standards.

Mamikon
France was not intent on killing all the muslims of Algiers...

Since when did you become the expert, in areas they were intent of killing all Muslims to wipe out any form of resistance.

In the 30's 2 million 345 thousand hectars of land was taken from Algerians and given to European settlers a large chunk of which was free of charge, from every 6 Algerians one was killed.

Its not restricted to Algeria.

Look at what happened in Chad, 400 Leaders, Representatives and wise men killed in a single night, the kingdom of Chad taken over, all Mosques closed, Medresse's destroyed, a whole nation torn apart, massacres, mass-arrests, a colonial clampdown.

In Gabon, turning it into a slave port of human traficing and suffering.

What about the role of the French in the Ruwandan Genocide? many say France should be directly charged as being one of the parties responsible for it occuring.

I could carry on and on, what I'm highlighting is that France is in no position to jump on a moral high horse and start parading around telling other countries that they need to adress their history while France is the one who should sort out her own issues first before attacking others.

Leonadis
your right, germany is the country which others can learn from in my mind, it has faced and acccepted its ugly past.

Todayy you rarely hear, Germans comitted a Genocide, its always "Nazi's" did it, the Nazi's comitted the genocide, not all German people supported this or participated, ofcourse its also true.

However, when talking about Turkey, they say "TURKS" comitted Genocide, "TURKEY" did it and "TURKEY" must adress its past.

The reality is, nobody from that time is alive today, in that era they were OTTOMANS, it was the OTTOMAN STATE, there was no TURKEY, Turkey is a seperate entity which was founded in 1923.

Leonadis
as i am entitled to mine. Your a member that holds the british empire in a glory light in other threads but ready to jump up and down about the french?

Ok, lets make a comparison.

Look at ex-English Colonies

U.S.A, Canada, India, Australia.....

Now look at ex-French Colonies

Algeria, Benin, Burkino-Faso, Senegal, Chad, Cameroon, Gabon.....

It doesn't take a genius to work out, what-ever crimes the Brittish may have comitted they also did and have benefited those countries aswell and many of them are today either Super-Powers, developing powers or countries with some hope.

Now look at ex-French Colonies, there is no infastructure, no railways, state education systems teaching people their own native languages and so on. Many are third-world, totally exploited and had most of their intellects and leaders wiped out leaving them with little hope for the future.

The two are in-comparable, you can critisice the Brittish all you like, there will be points I'll agree on however, one has to be honest and objective and the reality is, Brittish Colonialism had a far better effect then French Colonialism.


Leonadis
Either way it is how they handle their own past that really seperates them. So really the question should be; Which states actaully ban the word 'genocide' for being used for certain parts of its own past and inprison members of its press and writers for expressing such views? i can say its not france

Saying a Genocide occured is not an arrestable offense, Orhan Pamuk was not arrested, put on trial or imprisoned, he didn't say there was a Genocide either he said massacres.

Its actually going to become an arrestable offense in France.

So whose got more freedom of expression?

Leonadis
geez we all know that everyone has right to finger point, but what your point? its doesnt seem to be about the Algerains or bloody european emperialism. I see politics, the type used by the turkish foriegn ministry and some very sad and immature point scoring

Not at all, Turkey didn't start this, it didn't cause this, France is being immature and pointing fingers and causing this whole scene.

Algeria is an ally of Turkey, it has asked Turkey to accept the Algerian Genocide, why shouldn't Turkey accept it as France has done to her about the Armenians. France put Turkey in this position, Turkey is justified in its actions now.

Leonadis
Turkey can get nothing out of this

Oh but your mistaken.

Not only Turkey but a large chunk of the world could get alot out of this.

French Colonialism only ended fifty or so years ago, people are still alive who witnessed it.

Countries, impovrished and exploited in Africa can file international law-suits against France demanding compensation and apologies.

Even Turkey can file complaints about WW1 War Crimes commited agains Turks in the French invasion.

For too long Turkey has just kept silent because of its EU aspirations, people now are fed up, EU support is below 40% the road to EU is more important than joining it.

What happened in Algeria was definately horrible, should be condemned, and France has not sufficiently dealt with it, but I'm getting pretty sick of people whose blind nationalism makes them deny or minimize all misdeeds done by their country in the past, while they continuously going around pointing their finger to other countries.

You've given a great description of exactly what France's official policy is.

Minimlise all its own crimes and go around pointing fingers at others.

Its France that began all this, so France shouldn't be suprised to get a mouthfull of its own medicene!

Mixcoatl
If all you want to do here is to say how great Turks were and how bad others

But who here has said this? who? what's all these accusations and defensive attitude about.

Nobody is sitting here claiming Turkey to be the Angels of the world.

Nobody has denied there were Armenians who were massacred and that the Ottoman State in its last years comitted injustices, that the Turkish state has had a bad policy regarding Kurds in the past.

Were just exposing France's deep rooted prejeduce, double-standards and hypocracisy.

Turkey isn't perfect, neither is France, so who is France to start telling Turkey to accept this and that when it doesn't even adress its own issues first.

Mahrbbal
I'm just shock that some of us openly declare themselves as nationalists when we know what kind of horror it brought to the world...

Just to celebrate France on last time (ok I'm a bite nationalist as well

What an ironic statement, condemning some for being open about their Nationalist tendancies while admitting your also Nationlist yourself.

One rule for some and another for others.

    

Edited by Bulldog - 09-Oct-2006 at 08:09

Being Patriotic, loving your country and people isn't a crime.

Being an ignorant, racist, biggot who must attack others, try to bring them down so they feel superior to them however, is an ugly human trait.    

Mordoth ofcourse you can be proud to be a Turk but it shouldn't let you be blind to the reality that nobody has a crystal clear history, everyone has comitted some crime in the past its human nature.

The issue being underlined here, is France taking this approach, acting as the moralistic leader of all that is good because its such an angelic country with such a clear guiltless past and thinking it can tell everybody else what to do.

Don't reply to their double-standards, prejecude and hypocrasisy by doing what they try to do by pretending thier all good and Turks are all bad.

Originally posted by Mordoth Bulldog ; First of all , you are absolutely true , but tell me a single nation WHO HA SNOT FOUGHT till their life-long period ... Please tell me one .   YEah , We , Turks-Bosniaks commited to strike for hundreds of Thousands of times maybe ; but it seems None of Our friends has seen the EXILE and EXPEL of Balcan Turks by Serbians-Greeks and other wannabe - independant states of late 19th century .

 

Originally posted by Mixcoatl I don't think France intended to wipe out all Algerians, so horrible as it was, it was not a genocide.

Exactly, the massacres were horrible and large in scale (yet nothing to be compared to what happened to the Armenians). But no policy of systematic cleaning.

So the difference is:

Turkey doesn't want to recognise a Genocide that is one and call it massacre and goes as far as putting a taboo on it and jailing people for insult to the Turkish nation.

France doesn't want to recognise a genocide that is not one and call it a massacre, which it is and doesn't go as far as putting a taboo on it, you won't be fined nor sued for calling it a genocide which has happened even in serious and well followed newspapers.

I have a question for Turkish forumers.

Edited by Leonardo - 09-Oct-2006 at 10:22