Who are the ancient Macedonians ?

Very good question... Ionia is a bit difficult though...You could in the same way doubt the Athenians based on what the Spartans thought about them and the opposite. You could doubt the Aeolians with the same logic.

What I think is wrong with the adepts of Macedonians=Greeks theory is that they exclude the posibility that Macedonians were not Greeks.

We have the examples of populations in Minor Asia which became Greeks by hellenization, why shouldn't happen the same with Macedonians, when even the Northerner Thracians were completely hellenized?

However, you can see that authors first seem to distinct them but later refer to them as Greeks (ex. Strabo).

This is not the case with Syracusians or other sure Greeks. I think is explainable: a hellenized population is considered by earlier authors as not-Greek and by later ones as Greek.

My question is, why does nobody dare to question Aristoteles as a Greek? He was from Macedonia... It was a city in Macedonia that preffered to be independent and democratic...That is why Philip burned it. The city is called Stagira and exists today... Olynthos is also a Macedonian city that got independence and entered the Athenian league...Now lets see...A city in Macedonia entering a Hellenic league? And oh yeah, they were members of the Panhellenion as well...So was the Kindom of Macedonia. For some reason when I do questions about Aristotle and his origins people change subject directly...

Stagira was founded in 665 by Ionian Greek colonists from Andros. How could be founded a Greek colony in Greek land? A similar history have had all the Greek cities in Chalcidice peninsula, including Olynthos.

Now tell me a good reason why the Macedonians would spead Hellenistic culture and not their own. Why would they care to adopt a "foreign language" and develop it? Besides, doesn't culture and speech define the Hellenes (Isokrates)?

Look my theory: Macedonians were not a Greek people but Thracians or other ethnic group (maybe a mixage of Thracians and Greeks) which got almost completely hellenized untill 5th century but they preserved the conscience of their non-Greek apartnence untill Alexander. Rome was not yet a great power, the most prestigious was the Greek people and civilization so the Macedonians wished to consider themselves Greeks and to spread the Greek culture.


If a people have Greek culture and language we may consider them Greeks but also we have to clarify their origin.

Remember that before the Hellenistic years and the years when Koine was the common language of the Greeks, the Persians called the Macedonians Yaunas. This was during the war between Greeks and Persians. Doesn't that mean that their pre-Koine language (Makedonisti) was considered Greek to the Persians?

I think yes. I think the original language of Macedonians vanished earlier.

Do you see any other conqueror to spread diffrent civilization from those that has?

Yes. The Romans of the Roman empire were, excepting the first centuries of their history, not the people from Rome but the different origin peoples from Italy and later from the whole Mediteranean area.

The ancient authors consider the Macedonians as Greeks.

From what I have read, I think only the late and uninformed of them considered this.

Can you show me one author that doubt the non-Greek origin of them?

Many. Look a small part of them in my message in this topic from 17 October 2006 at 6:31pm.

Can someone of the deniers of the macedonians' greekness explain me how had they hellenised from the evil greeks according to your opinion? Were they conquered by southern Greeks??

They were not conquered by Greeks but hellenized voluntary. We see how the voluntary hellenization of Thracians took place:

Most of the Thracians would eventually become Hellenized (in the province of Thrace) or Romanized (in Moesia, Dacia, etc.).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians



    

Originally posted by akritas Your source is known(even you avoided for obvious reasons to show it)  and I don't have time to debate one to one...I will stay in this

Originally posted by Menumorut We have the examples of populations in Minor Asia which became Greeks by hellenization, why shouldn't happen the same with Macedonians, when even the Northerner Thracians were completely hellenized?

It was the Carrians (GK. Karres)...An anatolian tribe that were considered Greeks after the 5th centrury.

As for the Macedonians we do not have a record like in the case of the Carrians that they became Hellenized...Thrace was Hellenized in many regions...The coast was Ionian so I'm not talking about that, but the rest of Thrace, which even though we have evidence that they were Hellenized , they are never mentioned as Greeks (I exclude the Ionian cities). This is not the case again with Macedonia.

This is not the case with Syracusians or other sure Greeks. I think is explainable: a hellenized population is considered by earlier authors as not-Greek and by later ones as Greek.

Wrong! You have very few records making geographic distinctions and you have many records recognising them in the same period.

Stagira was founded in 665 by Ionian Greek colonists from Andros. How could be founded a Greek colony in Greek land? A similar history have had all the Greek cities in Chalcidice peninsula, including Olynthos.

Cities are founded they do not exist forever. The rest is covered by Akritas post...And in the end, add that to the Greek presence in Macedonia.

Look my theory: Macedonians were not a Greek people but Thracians or other ethnic group (maybe a mixage of Thracians and Greeks) which got almost completely hellenized untill 5th century but they preserved the conscience of their non-Greek apartnence untill Alexander. Rome was not yet a great power, the most prestigious was the Greek people and civilization so the Macedonians wished to consider themselves Greeks and to spread the Greek culture.

Do you have evidence that shows any connection to the Thracians? See the Thracian writtings...Greek letters but a language that is not possible to comprehend by a Greek. But YES, there were Phrygian minorities amongst the Macedonians, this is even written in some Greek books. However, we have records of quite many number of Greek migrations to Macedonia, so why should Macedonians specifically be Thracians? Shouldn't the rest of the Greeks know that?

Now why would someone want to badly to consider himself Greek? There is no convincing theory. "Cause they admired the culture" is nonsence...Then what about Japanese who admire the western societies? Do they get American passports and stay in Japan?

If a people have Greek culture and language we may consider them Greeks but also we have to clarify their origin.

Correct...But how can you know that? The earliest findings are Mychenean. Before that we do not have any records...Besides mate, mine and yours origins if we look back 30 000 is around Caucasus and some other areas over there. If we look more back you and I came from Africa. So what??? Those people were Indoeuropeans ok, but nations are born from historical events, culture and common consciousness.

I think yes. I think the original language of Macedonians vanished earlier.

What do you base that thought on? Any empirical material?

The ancient authors consider the Macedonians as Greeks. From what I have read, I think only the late and uninformed of them considered this.

Try Hesiod...Just an example...



Edited by Flipper - 09-Jun-2008 at 14:55

Thanks  Flipper

Originally posted by Flipper Strabo again about Macedonia way back in time...(tired of repeating this)... Strabo Geography But over all the above mentioned it was the tribe called the Argeadae who made themselves supreme,as did the Chalcidians in Euboea. In fact, the Chalcidians in Euboea actually invaded the land of the Sithones where they jointly founded some 30 cities. Caranus also came to Emathia with a large band of Hellenes, being insctructed by an Oracle to seek a home in Macedonia. I don't know if that time is good for you? If you go further back then you have Macedon, son of Aeolus in Macedonia (Mychenean times). If you go way way way back you have the first Phrygian Kindom. No Macedonian Kindom...

Anton my answer in Strabo quote given 3 posts earlier

Edited by akritas - 25-Oct-2006 at 15:37

Originally posted by akritas Anton my answer in Strabo quote given 3 posts earlier   Ooops! Sorry. That sounds like an explanation indeed!     and you are OFF THE TOPIC as I explained you via PM in a message that I do not deleted   Did you mean that one where I promissed you to flame? I do not consider it as a private

It was the Carrians (GK. Karres)...A Tyrhenian tribe that were considered Greeks after the 5th centrury.

We also could mention Frygians, Lydians, Lycians, Cilicians, Galatians and other nations.

As for the Macedonians we do not have a record like in the case of the Carrians that they became Hellenized...Thrace was Hellenized in many regions...The coast was Ionian so I'm not talking about that, but the rest of Thrace, which even though we have evidence that they were Hellenized , they are never mentioned as Greeks (I exclude the Ionian cities). This is not the case again with Macedonia.

That because Thrace was not in direct contact with the Greek regions, like Macedonia so the native culture and language was preserved later.

After hellenization, Thracians started to be called Greeks, like Macedonians after Alexander, they lost their national identity.

According to Esychius Thracians are called Ionians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Thrace

Cities are founded they do not exist forever.

Could you give examples of Greek cities which have been founded in greek land by not-Local population?

Do you have evidence that shows any connection to the Thracians?

The non-Greek words of late Macedonian language could be explained elseway?

See the Thracian writtings...Greek letters but a language that is not possible to comprehend by a Greek.

Only four Thracian inscriptions have been found ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language ) but the Greek inscriptions in Thracia, before the Macedonian conquest, is great.

Now why would someone want to badly to consider himself Greek?

Living in the closeness of Greek land and their cities considered the most civilised by all the peoples, would be inapropiate to wish to preserve and even promote your Barbarian culture, in the conception of that time.

Correct...But how can you know that? The earliest findings are Mychenean. Before that we do not have any records...

I cann't believe the earliest findings are Mychenean, it should be stone age.

Besides mate, mine and yours origins if we look back 30 000 is around Caucasus and some other areas over there. If we look more back you and I came from Africa. So what??? Those people were Indoeuropeans ok, but nations are born from historical events, culture and common consciousness.

So, the History is an inutile science? Not a good idea, especialy on a history forum.

What do you base that thought on? Any empirical material?

We cann't think that Greek was the language from imemorial times. If we try answer when started Greek to be spoken there, we find these posibilities:

1.-It was spoken from Mycenian times by Greek speaking tribes, ancestors of Macedonians

2. -It was spoken from a later period, replacing the former language sometime in the centuries BC.

I think the first variant cann't be accepted because such a greta longeivty of Greek communities would lead to creation of city-states like in other Greek lands, especialy in a region like Macedonia with such contacts and posibility of comerce.

Originally posted by Flipper @ Akritas >> Well...I don't know what I should say now. This was a discrace...

Edited by akritas - 25-Oct-2006 at 16:08

I guess I have a lot of catching up to do, but, oh well.  At this point, because there is now a lot of overlap, I will only address bits of various threads, since there has been duplication of material already covered.