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Who are the ancient Macedonians ?
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    Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 21:08
Flipper

Originally posted by Sharrukin


And as I've already explained, the earliest context of which the term "barbarian" was used was to describe non-Greeks. Strabo was quite clear to have stated that it was his opinion to his definition of "barbarian". Ultimately, Strabo, being 1st cent. AD is far too late an authority to give us the meaning of "barbarian" in the 5th century BC. Isocrates, likewise.


And I have explained that the exact name for foreigner is "mi ellin" (foreigner, not greek), or "allodapos" (a non greek person born in another country), or "Xenos" (stranger, foreigner). The term barbarian has characterized greeks that didn't not meet up the cultural advancement of the other city states/kindoms. In other word uncivilized or uncultured persons. This was in general the view of the greeks towards foreigners as well. They were uncivilized to them and therefore barbarians. That doesn't mean that other greeks were not characterized as barbarians.

And again...Πας μη Έλλην βάρβαρος. This means "all foreigners are barbarous", not "all foreigners are foreigners".


And again, from the very beginning of the archaic literary record, the term "barbarian" was used to describe non-Greeks. All other terms are much later in date.

Originally posted by Sharrukin

We've also agreed that this was also among Hammond's last things he wrote as well, and just as he had changed his opinion on certain things from previous writings, so he had changed his opinion on the archaeological evidence as well. He did not consider Vergina "Greek", either in the Brygian Lauzits or the Illyrian Glasinac periods. He was quite clear on that. It is you who did not understand what Hammond was trying to say.

But Hammond changed from a skeptic view to a possitive view didn't he?


Hammond was always positive about the Hellenic origin of the Macedonians, but just as the archaeological evidence had become more available, and carefully studied, the less he became willing to judge it as being Greek, at least until the time of the arrival of the Temenidae (c. 650 BC).

On the contrary. You've virtually ignored the majority of the archaeological evidence. The written history (i.e. by Macedonians) is only 4th century in date and later. The archaeological evidence shows a mix of Greek and other Balkanic influences. Most of the Greek toponyms are later than the 4th century BC. In the earliest period we know of toponyms of non-Greek origins in the majority, such as the names of districts which were based on the names of tribes. Some of the names of the earliest cities could either be Greek or other IE. The blanket statement "We dont have any evidence that used diffrent cultural elements from the Greek" ignores much physical evidence.

This one is a tricky answer. No answer at all i would say, just a loop. You have earlier findings. The balcanic findings are placed in other dates that do not affect the comming of the macedonians. The non-Greek toponims later change and fit the periods we have examined.


Yes, we do have non-Greek traditions dating from earlier periods, but they continue to persist into the Temenid period. According to the art historian Olga Palagia of the University of Athens, the Macedonians were like "a sponge, absorbing a variety of surrounding cultures." (Borza, 1999, pages 32-33, personal communication). These influences then steadily wane in the wake of Hellenization until sometime in the Hellenistic period, when Macedonia becomes just as Greek as the south.    

Another, view that is never examined by the skeptics is: How did the macedonians look upon the other greeks?[/quotes]

You mean "How did the Macedonians look upon the Greeks". On the contrary!!! Skeptics mark this question as central to their way of thinking!!!

They always attach themselves to certain quotes while we have macedonian inscriptions where they include themselves as "We and the rest of the greeks".


The habit is not unique to skeptics. The other side does this very famously as well, even more so. And you quote wrongely: It is not the "Macedonians" which quote this way, but only the Macedonian king. It is "<insert king's name here> king of Macedonia and the rest of Greece". This in no wise says anything about how Macedonians saw themselves. This was just the declaration of the king who claimed Hellenic ancestry. Ironically, this title was only true during the time of Macedonian domination of Greece. When Philip IV was defeated by the Romans, it was the Greeks which demanded that he "withdraw from the whole of Greece" (Polybius 18.9). Now, when we don't have anything to show that the Macedonians regarded themselves as Greeks, the Greeks themselves, on their independence of the Macedonians saw the Macedonians as occupiers of all Greece. Macedonia, to the Greeks was another land.

[quote]Not to mention that the word "Patrida" is also used when reffering to Hellas. Lets flip the story now and see what the ONES had to say about themselves. We have no clear statement where they refer to themselves as something else that Greeks.


Again, only the Macedonian king used that term. Nothing is said about how the Macedonians saw themselves as Greeks.
    

Edited by Sharrukin - 18-Dec-2006 at 21:18
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akritas

Originally posted by Sharrukin

And as I've already explained, the earliest context of which the term "barbarian" was used was to describe non-Greeks. Strabo was quite clear to have stated that it was his opinion to his definition of "barbarian". Ultimately, Strabo, being 1st cent. AD is far too late an authority to give us the meaning of "barbarian" in the 5th century BC. Isocrates, likewise.

I know your opinion. You are a from few people that I have met and rejected Strabo as "modern".!!!!Actually Flipper had given the theorotical explaination of the ""pas mi Hellen barbaros"".


But you do realise that Strabo (in his own context) is not giving anything to justify his conviction except by stating that it was his opinion, right?   We already have 8 centuries before him, as to how the term "barbarian" was used, enough for scholars to define the term quite clearly!!! That evidence contradicts Strabo, so we must take his statement just the way he said it, as his opinion.


Originally posted by Sharrukin


We've also agreed that this was also among Hammond's last things he wrote as well, and just as he had changed his opinion on certain things from previous writings, so he had changed his opinion on the archaeological evidence as well. He did not consider Vergina "Greek", either in the Brygian Lauzits or the Illyrian Glasinac periods. He was quite clear on that. It is you who did not understand what Hammond was trying to say.

I didnt say that. I said that in Vergina there were cemeteries that had all these civilizations.Like these cemeteries we have found the periods of the suzerain cultures in South central Macedonia. In page 6(middle) was clear.So I repeat it again....

well we must summirized as about the arguments.I mean in those that beleive in the Settlement..

Cemeteries.We have the abatement of the Brygian (Phrygian as you said) archaelogical findings until theirs disappeared in 7th century.


They disappeared about 800 BC, followed by the Illyrian evidence.

The muceneans findings are the same.


The Mycenaean evidence is considered either as "imports" or as "imitations", prior to the Brygian Lausitz period.

The Lausitz ceramica evidence.


Which is Brygian.

The ancient writings (Caranus or Perdikas) that spoke for migration and conquered the Emathia.Of course we have and the testimony of the poets that speak for the genealogical tree of the Greek tribes as you explain with your given quote.(two testimonies).


Let's be precise on this. Those legends are not "ancient writings", they are "traditions". The "Caranus tradition" is discounted by most specialists in Macedonian studies, including Hammond. Hence, no "Macedonian kingship" before about 650 BC. Therefore, no overlap with the preceding Brygian and Illyrian periods.

The initial arcaheological findings of the Colonies. Like your Corinthian artifact piece.Strabo was clear for that.(book 7)


I do not deny a Greek presence before the Temenid period. As a matter of fact, even I've given a catalogue of various Greek influences in Macedonia. This actually proves my point: there were Greek influences from various quarters during the period when Macedonia was predominantly non-Greek in culture in the earlier Iron Age. Hellenization can be better explained by these various lines of Greek presence without having to postulate a Greek identity to the Macedonians.

The gradual restoration of contacts between these areas, after their weakening during the Submycenaean period, is one of the basic elements of development in Greece during the Dark Age and Geometric period.As I said Greeks meet Greeks.


Of which there is no evidence.

The growth of trade created opportunities for contact with other peoples, facilitated cultural interaction and contributed to the Renaissance inaugurated from the 2nd quarter of the 8th cent B.C.

A fairly one-sided point-of-view. Hammond characterised the earlier "sub-Mycenaean" period (Lausitz) as a period of relative prosperity and political organization. It was only in the Illyrian period that life became much more simpler, with tribal units replacing local provincial organization, while on the coast we have Greek colonies.


Finally I want to add that the settlements of the Dark Age and Geometric period can be distinguished into two classes: permanent and temporary.Will be following another analysies but I want first to hear the opposite opinion, these that still claim that the Macedonians were not Greek tribe.


See above.

Just to mention ......we speak for the Macedonians and not for the Macedonian State or Kingdom


That is right, we are speaking about the period before the Macedonian Kingdom (beginning about 650 BC). It therefore becomes quite academic when we consider that where some of the Macedonians were located, these regions were part of the earlier non-Greek cultures.

after 8th cent the non-Greek civilizations were desapperead.


Utterly false. In the 8th century, Macedonia was dominated by the Illyrian Glasinac Culture (c. 800-650 BC). Perhaps a remnant of that influence were the Macedonian Lyncestians, said by Strabo as being Illyrian. In the earlier Macedonian period, non-Greek traditions were still quite strong. It was only in the Hellenistic period when the Greek tradition predominated.


Originally posted by Sharrukin


On the contrary. You've virtually ignored the majority of the archaeological evidence.

The archaelogical evidence is this that given the Greekness of the Macedonia.


Then you have a one-sided view of evidence. Unfortunate.

I never ignored, it seems that you ignore it.


I never denied the Greek influence. But, I would rather view things in proper context, in proper balance.   

Did you ever go in Thessloniki or Vergina museum ?


No, but so what? Even museums will only show a fraction of what they have collected, and for better or for worse, what is displayed does not necessarily represent the true proportion of those sites actually contain.

The paradise of the Macedonian civilization.
Pro Vergina findings the opposite site was stayed in the non-Greekness of the Macedonians until 4th cent.Now they stay in pro-5th century.


I did not understand what you were trying to say. Can you please rephrase it?


Originally posted by Sharrukin


The written history (i.e. by Macedonians) is only 4th century in date and later. The archaeological evidence shows a mix of Greek and other Balkanic influences. Most of the Greek toponyms are later than the 4th century BC. In the earliest period we know of toponyms of non-Greek origins in the majority, such as the names of districts which were based on the names of tribes. Some of the names of the earliest cities could either be Greek or other IE. The blanket statement "We dont have any evidence that used diffrent cultural elements from the Greek" ignores much physical evidence.

Do you have more old from the 5th(not 4th) written history ? If you havent then I would like to stay in those that they existing.


Here's what I'm saying. We do not have a "history written by Macedonians" until the 4th century BC (i.e. Ptolemy I). Anything before that was written by Greeks.

You spoken for toponyms. Why the Macedonians changed the major toponyms from non-Greek names to Greek ?


No, they didn't. Please specify. We do know that Greek place-names proliferate much later, especially in places where non-Greek tribes used to inhabit, but like I've written much earlier there had been a Greek presence in Macedonia since at least the 8th century. Greeks were settling in various places in Macedonia along side non-Greek peoples. Like today, a travellor in these mountainous regions can visit four different villages speaking four different languages. Why there were later Greek place-names can be better explained by Greek settlements rather than by Macedonian conquest.
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Originally posted by Sharrukin



And again, from the very beginning of the archaic literary record, the term "barbarian" was used to describe non-Greeks. All other terms are much later in date.



You miss the fact that the word is a repetition of "βαρ" and therefore synomym to τραυλίζω (stutter). From a linguistic perspective it is absurd to have a repetitive word meaning something else, while you have the word Ξένος/Ξήνος which litterarly means stranger.

And even if that was the case, the statement about them was made when earlier and at the same time the word was used against other Hellenes. In other words it falls in the categories mentioned in the quotes in my previous post.

Originally posted by Sharrukin

Hammond was always positive about the Hellenic origin of the Macedonians, but just as the archaeological evidence had become more available, and carefully studied, the less he became willing to judge it as being Greek, at least until the time of the arrival of the Temenidae (c. 650 BC).



The archeological evidence on the specific areas of their motherland change drastically in the specific time we examine. He doesn't state anything opposite to his previous opinion which makes the above statement an hypothesis not a fact. There is a full report on Achaic artifacts I will extract gradually (600 pages).

On the contrary. You've virtually ignored the majority of the archaeological evidence. The written history (i.e. by Macedonians) is only 4th century in date and later. The archaeological evidence shows a mix of Greek and other Balkanic influences. Most of the Greek toponyms are later than the 4th century BC. In the earliest period we know of toponyms of non-Greek origins in the majority, such as the names of districts which were based on the names of tribes. Some of the names of the earliest cities could either be Greek or other IE. The blanket statement "We dont have any evidence that used diffrent cultural elements from the Greek" ignores much physical evidence.

This one is a tricky answer. No answer at all i would say, just a loop. You have earlier findings. The balcanic findings are placed in other dates that do not affect the comming of the macedonians. The non-Greek toponims later change and fit the periods we have examined.


Yes, we do have non-Greek traditions dating from earlier periods, but they continue to persist into the Temenid period. According to the art historian Olga Palagia of the University of Athens, the Macedonians were like "a sponge, absorbing a variety of surrounding cultures." (Borza, 1999, pages 32-33, personal communication). These influences then steadily wane in the wake of Hellenization until sometime in the Hellenistic period, when Macedonia becomes just as Greek as the south.    



Again, only the Macedonian king used that term. Nothing is said about how the Macedonians saw themselves as Greeks.



We're not talking anymore about Macedonian King quotes but for random inscriptions and dedications. Since I'm at work, i will start with the following conserning a general.

Δάμων Νικάνορος Μακεδὼν ἀπὸ

Θεσσαλονίκης v Κόϊντον Καικέλιον

Κοΐντου Μέτελλον, στρατηγὸν ὕπατον

Ῥωμαίων, vvvv Διὶ Ὀλυμπίωι

ἀρετῆς ἕνεκεν καὶ εὐνοίας ἧς ἔχων διατε-

λεῖ εἴς τε αὑτὸν καὶ τὴν πατρίδα καὶ τοὺς λοιποὺς

Μακεδόνας κ̣αὶ τοὺς ἄλλους Ἕλληνας.

Patrida: Is used when reffering to your country.
Tous loipous Makedonas kai tous allous Ellinas: The Macedonians and the other Greeks.

His sympathetic action to the motherland, the Macedonians and the other Greeks. Macedonians and the other Greeks having the same motherland. Obviously Hellas. He doesn't include himself only but the rest of his people.

More to come...


Edited by Flipper - 19-Dec-2006 at 04:08


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Originally posted by Sharrukin


But you do realise that Strabo (in his own context) is not giving anything to justify his conviction except by stating that it was his opinion, right?   We already have 8 centuries before him, as to how the term "barbarian" was used, enough for scholars to define the term quite clearly!!! That evidence contradicts Strabo, so we must take his statement just the way he said it, as his opinion.

Flipper answered you in this issue as about the barbaros etymological meaning.The people that they know and use the Greek language know very well the meaning of the barbaros in ancient times.
Originally posted by Sharrukin


They disappeared about 800 BC, followed by the Illyrian evidence.

..and Greek ones.I gave you many examples
Originally posted by Sharrukin


The Mycenaean evidence is considered either as "imports" or as "imitations", prior to the Brygian Lausitz period.

When we say Mycenean, we mean that these artifacts had the same manufacture way, manner e.t.c. Is not mean that was mucenean.Why must repeat the same thinks
Originally posted by Sharrukin


Which is Brygian.

I am not doubt
Originally posted by Sharrukin


Let's be precise on this. Those legends are not "ancient writings", they are "traditions". The "Caranus tradition" is discounted by most specialists in Macedonian studies, including Hammond. Hence, no "Macedonian kingship" before about 650 BC. Therefore, no overlap with the preceding Brygian and Illyrian periods.

If I follow your logic then and the Athenean or the Spartan legends were not ancient writings, but Greek traditions.The Salamian battleship never happened because we have no archaelogical evidence. Was just a Greek tradition. Herodotus and Thucydides limit themselves to these traditions whenever they happen to speak of the Macedonians past and the foundations of their realm while Euripides makes of the Macedonian legendas he does of others belonging to Greek prehistory, a subject for dramatic poetry.
Historians, chroniclers and biographers from the middle of the 4th century on, caught up in the dazzle of events almost beyond human ken, which occurred during the reigns of Philip and Alexander destined to change the fate of Greece and the whole course of her history, had but to collect, or on occasion to link in a more fascinating way, the legends and traditions concerning the founder of the glorious, and by then renowned Argaed dynasty, to the beginning of the state, for which so splendid a destiny has been reserved.
Originally posted by Sharrukin


Of which there is no evidence.

The growth of trade created opportunities for contact with other peoples, facilitated cultural interaction and contributed to the Renaissance inaugurated from the 2nd quarter of the 8th cent B.C.

A fairly one-sided point-of-view. Hammond characterised the earlier "sub-Mycenaean" period (Lausitz) as a period of relative prosperity and political organization. It was only in the Illyrian period that life became much more simpler, with tribal units replacing local provincial organization, while on the coast we have Greek colonies.

We speak for the Macedonia core and not the whole Macedonia boundaries as built in Philip reign.
Originally posted by Sharrukin


No, but so what? Even museums will only show a fraction of what they have collected, and for better or for worse, what is displayed does not necessarily represent the true proportion of those sites actually contain.

the problem is these museums(Greek) show only the Greek,Illyrian and Brygians fractions.We dont have find something diffrent.
Originally posted by Sharrukin


I did not understand what you were trying to say. Can you please rephrase it?

I was tried to say that before Vergina findings the people that had support the non-Greekness of the ancient Macedonians were many and the period include the pro-4th century period. After the Vergina this period now beggining in 5th cent and before.

as about the Macedonian names and "Ptolemy" history I will answer you soon.









    
    

Edited by akritas - 19-Dec-2006 at 08:12
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Sharrukin, all your efforts for an argument that dies at around the point when ancient Macedon became Hellenized thousands of years ago. Smile  Perhaps, instead of basing arguments on names people called each other, it's better to study the physical evidence; the ruins, artifacts, the design of ancient Pella, how it's inhabitants lived, etc, because these things can't lie, and prove that regardless of what ancient Macedon was before, it became Hellenized thousands of years ago.  I think your arguments would be useful in describing the ancients of what is today called FYROM.
 
Rgds. 


Edited by Hellios - 19-Dec-2006 at 08:48
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I said
Originally posted by akritas


You spoken for toponyms. Why the Macedonians changed the major toponyms from non-Greek names to Greek ?

and you answer
Originally posted by Sharrukin


No, they didn't. Please specify. We do know that Greek place-names proliferate much later, especially in places where non-Greek tribes used to inhabit, but like I've written much earlier there had been a Greek presence in Macedonia since at least the 8th century. Greeks were settling in various places in Macedonia along side non-Greek peoples. Like today, a travellor in these mountainous regions can visit four different villages speaking four different languages. Why there were later Greek place-names can be better explained by Greek settlements rather than by Macedonian conquest.


Makedonia
Previous name was the "Thracian" Emathia

Aige
Previous name was the Brygian Bedy

All the cities that built from the Macedonians before Alexander (and after Alexander in Greece) had Greek names Europos, Petra, Dion, Douriopos, Pydna, Gortynia, Aelon, Atalante, Omolio and of course only Greek archaeological findings.

Macedonians that built or found from them outside from Greece cities , they had mix culture. Greek + domestic=Hellenistic.

And as I said in the beginning of this thread it is difficult to believe that, at that time, a Greek royal household was in a position to conquer and rule over an alien people which spoke a different language, while surrounded by a local military aristocracy-also speaking a different language-which never desired to remove the foreign ruler, It is not only nalve to accept such an idea, it would also compel us to accept a fact for which one could not easily supply an analogy from some other country.
And dont compared me again different civilizations (Russians!!!) and the most important in different geographical boundaries than the Haemus peninsula.
Originally posted by Sharrukin


Here's what I'm saying. We do not have a "history written by Macedonians" until the 4th century BC (i.e. Ptolemy I). Anything before that was written by Greeks.

And what was the supported tradition that Ptolemy spoken then ? o
ne from the major source of the Plutarch and Sicelus!!!!




    

Edited by akritas - 19-Dec-2006 at 11:17
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Originally posted by Sharrukin


Here's what I'm saying. We do not have a "history written by Macedonians" until the 4th century BC (i.e. Ptolemy I). Anything before that was written by Greeks.


And the Macedonians didn't seem to argue about it Big smile
They could have rewritten it.


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Originally posted by Sharrukin

Here's what I'm saying. We do not have a "history written by
Macedonians" until the 4th century BC (i.e. Ptolemy I). Anything before
that was written by Greeks.

And what do you really mean?That the Greek historians falsified the truth and appeared Macedonians as Greeks?...for what reason...just to give arguments to a future Greek state to claim Macedonia?

     
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"Here's what I'm saying. We do not have a "history written by Macedonians" until the 4th century BC (i.e. Ptolemy I). Anything before that was written by Greeks."

And, before and after this Macedonian history was Greek, right, mr Sharoukin? Does ANYONE argue that after 4c Macedonians' history is Greek ??

Resepct yourself !!
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Originally posted by Sharrukin

Here's what I'm saying. We do not have a "history written by Macedonians" until the 4th century BC (i.e. Ptolemy I). Anything before that was written by Greeks.
 
In ancient Macedon, especially Pella, they not only wrote, but did many more things that prove they were Hellenized, willingly it seems, according to archaeology & anthropologic evidence; they became Hellenic since ancient times, before Ptolemy.
 
Perhaps you're right about ancient Macedon being among the last places to become Greek, but it happened, thousands of years ago, which is why I said earlier; how far back to you wanna go?  If you want, we can go back far enough to say ancient Vikings were African.
 
Early "Persia" was just a small part of what's today known as Iran - why don't you try going around saying ancient Iran did not become Persian thousands of years ago? Smile


Edited by Hellios - 20-Dec-2006 at 09:18
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Hello, I'm new to the forum. The subject of the ancient Macedonians interests me very much. As far as I can tell through my own research here is what we know about the ancient Macedonians culture/ethnicity;
 
1. The name in which they identify themselves has Greek terminology
 
Mak= tall or high, either referring to the highland mountains of the region, or that the Macedonians were taller. I've read some on this forum reject the notion that having a Greek terminology need not make the Macedones Greek, and the analogy of the Ethiopians being used, but this is what the ancient Greeks new these people as, not what they called themselves. We know that the Macedonians called themselves as such. It would be strange that a people be totally Hellenized to such a degree that they changed their ethnic name, with no evidence of a past identification.
 
2.  Ancient Greek historians also considered Macedonia part of the Greek world.
 

On the geography of Macedonian

The great philosopher Aristotelis (Aristotle) considers the rivers in Macedonias as "rivers in the Greek world"

    "Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope. ..."
    (Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)

    "The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."
    (Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)
 
 
 
The regional names in the original Macedonian kingdom are in Greek terminology
 
Anthemous
Almopia
Amphaxitis
Bisaltia
Botiaia
Chakildiki
Edonis
Elimeia
Eordaia
Krestonia
Lynkests
Mygdonia
Odomantis
Orestis
Paionia
Pelagonia
Pieria
Sintiki
Thassos
Tymphaea
 
 
3. They are connected to other Greeks through myth. Macedon and Magnese were brothers, yet I have never heard anyone ever question the ethnicity of the Magensians.
 
 And she of Zeus the lightning-bearer gave birth
to two sons, one was Magnes and the other
Macedon who loved horses, these two who lived
in the region of Pieria and Olympus.
 
 
The relationship between the Macedonians and the Magnesians was familiar to the ancients, for Hesiod portrays Makedon and Magnes as brothers. It is confirmed by the fact that the name of both peoples is derived from the root mak - high, tall and by the circumstance that the Macedonians and Magnesians celebrated a festival called the Hetaireidia, unknown elsewhere.
 
 
 Diodorus of Sicily in his historical description in relation to Crete:

    and it is said that the third race, the Dorians,
    reached Crete under the leadership of Tektamos,
    the son of Doros. And indeed it is said that the
    greater part of these peoples were gathered in
    the region around Mount Olympus.
 
Strabo, referring to early tribal movements, informs us that when the Lapiths brought pressure to bear on the Aeneans and the Perrhaebi, a section of the latter retreated around the western parts of Olympus where they became proschoroi Makedosi that is neighbors of the Macedonians (3). The mythical first king of the Macedonians, Karanos (according to Pausanias), after a battle set up a triumphal trophy in accordance with the age old customs of his Argive forebears. At night a lion descended from Olympus and destroyed it. From then on, by order of Karanos, the Macedonians never again set up victory trophies
 
4. Their kings claim descent through royal Greek lineage
 
This early settlement of Macedonians near Olympus is indirectly confirmed by Thucydides who places Pieria as first among the conquests of the Temenidae. The original nucleus and center of power of the Temenidae was the kingdom of Lower Macedonia. Lower (kato) was called the coastal Macedonia of the plains, while upper (ano) was used in reference to mountainous western Macedonia.
 
 
5. Names of Macedonian people have Greek terminology. A few Thracian and Illyrian names have been discovered in Macedonia, which would be very logical given it's geographic position, but no names of "Macedonian" origin have been recorded.
 
Here are some examples:
 
Ifestionas - Alexander's closest friend
Aristotelis - Famous phiosopher, born in Stageira
Hermias - Philosopher
Anaksarxos - Philosopher
Marsias - Writer
Zoilos - Writer
Zeuxis - Painter from Heraclea
Leocharis - Sculptor
Lysippos - Sculptor
Deinokratis - He helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt
Antipatros - Historian
Calisthenis - Historian
Aristoboulos - Historian
Aristokritos - Actor
Thessalos - Actor, friend of Alexander's
Argeos - Rival of king Philippos
Pausanias - The man who killed king Philippos
Eumenes - Alexander's secretary
Lyssimachos - Alexander's bodyguard
Kassandros - Army general, founded the city of Thessaloniki
Ptolemeos - Army general
Antigonos - Army general
Selefkos - Army general
Perdicas - Army general
Admetos - Army commander
Krateros - Phalanx commander, close friend of Alexander
Arrianos - Cavalary commander
Philotas - Cavalary commander
Cleitos - Cavalary commander
Nearchos - Navy commander
Neoptolemos - Arrmy officer
Python - Army officer
Hippostratos - Army officer
Permenion - Army officer
Attalos - Army officer
Kleitarxos - Army officer
Polyperchon - Army officer
Aristandros - Army seer
Polycratis - Soldier
Bolon - Soldier
Koinos - Soldier
Iolaos - Soldier

Callisthenis
Xenokratis
Deukalos
Arrhideos
Charidimos
Parmenion
Antiochos
Krateros
Kalas
Perseas
Meleagros
Arpalos
Eumenis
Leonatos
Assandros
Memmon
Akylos
Adymos
Pefkolaos
Olganos
Praxinos
Paterinos
Sekoundos
Paramonos
Sekoundos
Ermias
Podaleirios

 
 
 
6. The calendar months are made up of Greek terminology with many months having similarities with other Dorian Greek calanders, and to a lesser extent Aeolian. To my knowledge only one month has an Ionian connection, Epidaurion. The relevance of this is that many assume Greek colonies "Hellenic" influence over Macedonia, we would see more Ionian terminologies in Macedonian months, place names, surnames.........Yet we continue to find Doric examples in the Macedonian gloss.
 
 
  • Δίος (Dios, moon of October)
  • Απελλαίος (Apellaios, moon of November, also a Dorian month - Apellaiōn was a Tenian month)
  • Αυδναίος or Αυδηναίος (Audnaios or Audēnaios, moon of December)
  • Περίτιος (Peritios, moon of January)
  • Δύστρος (Dystros, moon of February)
  • Ξανδικός or Ξανθικός (Xandikos or Xanthikos, moon of March)
    • Ξανδικός Εμβόλιμος (Xandikos Embolimos, intercalated 6 times over a 19 year cycle.
  • Αρτεμίσιος or Αρταμίτιος (Artemisios or Artamitios, moon of April, also a Spartan, Rhodian and Epidaurian month - Artemisiōn was an Ionic month)
  • Δαίσιος (Daisios, moon of May)
  • Πάνημος or Πάναμος (Panēmos or Panamos, moon of June, also an Epidaurian, Miletian, Samian and Corinthian month)
  • Λώιος (Lōios, moon of July - Ομολώιος, Homolōios, was an Aetolian, Beotian and Thessalian month)
  • Γορπιαίος (Gorpiaios, moon of August)
  • Υπερβερεταίος (Hyperberetaios, moon of September - Hyperberetos was a Cretan month)
    • Υπερβερεταίος Εμβόλιμος (Hyperberetaios Embolimos, intercalated once over a 19 year cylce.
    •  
    7. From the time of Alexander I, there is proof of Macedonians competing in the Olympics, and other Pan Hellenic games.
     

    1. King Alexandros I in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE. He run the Stadion and was placed very close second.

    2. King Archelaos Perdiccas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BCE and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.

    3. King Philip was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.

    4.Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BCE.

    5. Damasias of Amphipolis won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BCE.

    6. Lampos from Phillipi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BCE.

    7.Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE.

    8.Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE.

    9.During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BCE and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BCE, a woman from Macedonia won the competition. Pausanias mentions that: it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi from the seashores of Macedonia.

     
    8. Obviously, they worshipped Greek Gods
     
    Two quotes from Plutarch's "Alexander"

      "Philip, after this vision, sent Chaeron of Megalopolis to consult the oracle of Apollo at Delphi, by which he was commanded to perform sacrifice, and henceforth pay particular honour, above all other gods, to Zeus;"

      "He [Alexander he Great] erected altars, also, to the gods, which the kings of the Praesians even in our time do honour to when they pass the river, and offer sacrifice upon them after the Greek manner."
    Diodoros of Sicily also makes clear that the Macedonnians worshiped the twelve Greek Gods:

    Histories, Chapter 16, 95.2

      "Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip included in the procession statues of the twelve Gods brought with great artistry and adorned with a dazzling show of wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along with these was conducted a thirteenth statue, suitable for a god, that of Philip himself, so that the king exhibited himself enthroned among the twelve Gods."
    Histories, Chapter 16, 91.5-6

      "He (King Philip) wanted as many Greeks as possible to take part in the festivities in honour of the gods, and so planned brilliant musical contests and lavish banquets for his friends and guests. Out of all Greece he summoned his personal guest-friends and ordered the members of his court to bring along as many as they could of their acquaintances from abroad."
     
    The main thing that sets the Macedonians apart from the other Greeks is their proximity to Illyria and Thrace. It would be quite logical that there was a cultural intermingling between them.
     
    Here are some ancient quotes of how Macedonians thought of themselves.....
     
     
    ...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
    but how different is their cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
    pay--- and not much of it at that; WE on the contrary shall fight for
    GREECE, and our hearts will be in it    .
    As for our FOREIGN troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
    Agrianes     --- they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
    Asia.
     
    Arrian (The Campaigns of Alexander) Alexander talking to the troops before the battle. Book 2-7 Penguin Classics. Page 112. Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.

     

    Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did US great harm, though WE had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...]
     

    (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)
     
     
    On this occasion, he [Alexander] made a very long speech to the Thessalians and the other Greeks, and when he saw that they encouraged him with shouts to lead them against the Barbarians, he shifted his lance into his left hand, and with his right appealed to the gods, as Callisthenes tells us, praying them, if he was really sprung from Zeus, to defend and strengthen the Greeks.
     
    [Plutarch. Alexander (ed. Bernadotte Perrin) XXXIII]
     
    Alexander called a meeting of his generals the next day. He told them that no city was more hateful to the Greeks than Persepolis, the capital of the old kings of Persia, the city from which troops without number had poured forth, from which first Darius and then Xerxes had waged an unholy war on Europe. To appease the spirits of their forefathers they should wipe it out, he said.
     
    (Quintus Curtius Rufus 5.6.1)
     
     
    As for Alexander, it is generally agreed that, when sleep had brought him back to his senses after his drunken bout, he regretted his actions and said that the Persians would have suffered a more grievous punishment at the hands of the Greeks had they been forced to see HIM on Xerxes' throne and in his palace.
     
    (Quintus Curtius Rufus 5.8)
     
     
    But he said, If I were not Alexandros, I should be Diogenes; that is to say: `If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things HELLENIC, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, TO PUSH THE BOUNDS OF MACEDONIA TO THE FARTHEST OCEAN, AND TO DISSEMINATE AND SHOWER THE BLESSINGS OF HELLENIC JUSTICE and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and DESIRE THAT VICTORIOUS HELLENES SHOULD DANCE AGAIN in India [...]"
     
    [Plutarch's Moralia, On the Fortune of Alexander, 332A (Loeb, F.C Babbitt)]
     
     
    There a man appeared to them, wearing a Greek cloak, and dressed otherwise in the Greek fashion, and speaking Greek also. Those [Macedonians] who first sighted him said that they burst into tears, so strange did it seem after all these miseries to see a Greek, and to hear Greek spoken. They asked whence he came, who he was; and he said that he had become separated from Alexander's camp, and that the camp, and Alexander himself, were not very far distant. Shouting aloud and clapping their hands they brought this man to Nearchus...
     
    Arrian, "The Indica" XXXIII
     
     
     


    Edited by chicagogeorge - 07-Feb-2007 at 18:01
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    Posts: 207     		  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 20:20
    I know that the subject of how Persian thought of Macedonians came up on previous pages,  yauna takabara, which meant Greeks wearing the hat was discussed.........
     
    Here is an interesting passage I came across posted on a different website.....Maybe it was posted by one of the forumers here:)
     
    Mardonius says Macedonians are Greek
     
     
    Whereupon Mardonius took the word, and said: "Of a
    truth, my lord, thou dost surpass, not only all living Persians, but
    likewise those yet unborn. Most true and right is each word that
    thou hast now uttered; but best of all thy resolve not to let the
    Ionians who live in Europe- a worthless crew- mock us any more. It
    were indeed a monstrous thing if, after conquering and enslaving the
    Sacae, the Indians, the Ethiopians, the Assyrians, and many other
    mighty nations, not for any wrong that they had done us, but only to
    increase our empire, we should then allow the Greeks, who have done us
    such wanton injury, to escape our vengeance. What is it that we fear
    in them?- not surely their numbers?- not the greatness of their
    wealth? We know the manner of their battle- we know how weak their
    power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our
    country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had
    experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of
    thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a
    little short of reaching Athens itself    , yet not a soul ventured to
    come out against me to battle    . (SS 2.) And yet, I am told, these
    very Greeks are wont to wage wars against one another in the most
    foolish way, through sheer perversity and doltishness. For no sooner
    is war proclaimed than they search out the smoothest and fairest plain
    that is to be found in all the land, and there they assemble and
    fight; whence it comes to pass that even the conquerors depart with
    great loss: I say nothing of the conquered, for they are destroyed
    altogether. Now surely, as they are all of one speech, they ought to
    interchange heralds and messengers, and make up their differences by
    any means rather than battle; or, at the worst, if they must needs
    fight one against another, they ought to post themselves as strongly
    as possible, and so try their quarrels. But, notwithstanding that they
    have so foolish a manner of warfare, yet these Greeks, when I led my
    army against them to the very borders of Macedonia    , did not so much as think of offering me battle. (SS 3.) Who then will dare, O king! to
    meet thee in arms, when thou comest with all Asia's warriors at thy
    back, and with all her ships? For my part I do not believe the Greek
    people will be so foolhardy. Grant, however, that I am mistaken
    herein, and that they are foolish enough to meet us in open fight;
    in that case they will learn that there are no such soldiers in the
    whole world as we. Nevertheless let us spare no pains; for nothing
    comes without trouble; but all that men acquire is got by
    painstaking."


    Edited by chicagogeorge - 05-Feb-2007 at 21:15
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    Posts: 207     		  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 20:23
     I've also read time and again oponents of Macedonians being part of the Greek ethnos using ancient quotes that distinguish Macedonians from Hellenes. The vast majority of references could be explained as political alliance or rhetoric by the author, depending on each example. On that basis, then the following "nations" or "tribes" should be excluded from being considered Hellenes;
     
     
     

    Athenians:

    • "When the estrangement which had arisen between the Athenians and the Hellenes became noised abroad, there came to Athens ambassadors from the Persians and from the Hellenes. [Diodoros of Sicily 11.28.1]

     

    • "...the Hellenes gathered in congress decreed to make common cause with the Athenians and advanced to Plataia in a body..." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.29.1]

     

    • "He soothed the Athenians' pride by promising them... that the Hellenes would accept their leadership..." [Plutarch, Themistokles 7]

     

    • "...the Athenians, because of their policy of occupying with colonists the lands of those whom they subdued, had a bad reputation with the Hellenes;..." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.23.4]

     

    • "And we decided upon a twofold revolt, from the Hellenes and the Athenians, not to aid the latter in harming the former... " [Thukydides, 3.13; Oration of the Mytilenaians]

     

    • "When the Athenians attacked the Hellenes, they, the Plataians... Atticized. [Thukydides, 3.62; Theban Accusations]

     

    • "The Athenians... by this denerous act they recovered the goodwill of the Hellenes and made their own leadership more secure." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.29.8]

     

    • "And this was the first naval victory that the city [Athens] had against the Hellenes, after the destruction." [Plutarch, Phokion 6]

    Spartans/Lakedaimonians:

    • "...the Lakedaimonians, fearful lest Themistokles should devise some great evil against them and the Hellenes, honoured him with double the numbers of gifts..." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.27.3]

     

    • "In this year [475 BCE] the Lakedaimonians... were resentful; consequently they were incensed at the Hellenes who had fallen away from them and continued to threaten them with the appropriate punishment." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.50.1]

     

    • "In a single battle the Peloponnesians and their allies may be able to defy all the Hellenes, but they can not carry a whole war..." [Thukydides 1.141; Oration of Pericles]

     

    • "When the Eleians not only paid no heed to them [the Lakedaimonians] but even accused them besides of enslaving the Hellenes, they dispatched Pausanias, the other of the two kings, against them with 4,000 soldiers." [Diodoros of Sicily 14.17.6]

     

    • "But Pausanias, the king of the Lakedaimonians, being jealous of Lysandros and observing that Sparta was in ill repute among the Hellenes, marched forth with a strong army and on his arrival in Athens brought about a reconciliation between the men of the city and the exiles. [Diodoros of Sicily 14.33.6]

     

    • "He says... the Lakedaimonians... gave to the Hellenes to taste the sweet drink of freedom..." [Plutarch, Lysandros 13]

     

    • "Agesilaos was accused... that he exposed the city [Sparta] as an accomplice in the crimes against the Hellenes." [Plutarch, Agesilaos 26]

     

    • "...the Lakedaimonians, who were hard put to it by the double war, that against the Hellenes and that against the Persians, dispatched their admiral Antalkidas to Artaxerxes to treat for peace." [Diodoros of Sicily 14.110.2]

     

    • "The Lakedaimonians... used their allies roughly and harshly, stirring up, besides, unjust and insolent wars against the Hellenes,..." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.1.3]

     

    • "At this time the kings of the Lakedaimonians were at variance with each other on matters of policy. Agesipolis, who was a peaceful and just man and, furthermore, excelled in wisdom, declared that they should abide by their oaths and not enslave the Hellenes contrary to the common agreements." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.16.4]

     

    • "Thus, the Hellenes were wondering what the state of the Lakedaimonian army would be had it been commanded by Agesilaos or... the old Leonidas." [Plutarch, Agis 14]

     

    • "Even though the Lakedaimonians had combated the Hellenes many times only one of their kings had ever died in action..." [Plutarch, Agis 21]

    Greeks of Asia Minor, the Aegean islands, Krete, Cyprus, Central Greece, the Ionian Sea and the West:

    • "The Athenians... reasoned that, if the Ionians were given new homes by the Hellenes acting in common they would no longer look upon Athens as their mother-city." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.37.3]

     

    • "...and as for the Hellenes, they were emboldened by the promise of the Ionians, and... came down eagerly in a body from Salamis to the shore in preparation for the sea- battle." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.17.4]

     

    • "Now the Samians and Milesians had decided unanimously beforehand to support the Hellenes..." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.36.2]

     

    • "...although the Ionians thought that the Hellenes would be encouraged, the result was the very opposite." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.36.2]

     

    • "When the Samians and Milesians put in their appearance, the Hellenes plucked up courage,... and Aiolians participated in the battle,..." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.36.4-5]

     

    • "When the Aiolians and Ionians had heard these promises, they resolved to take the advice of the Hellenes..." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.37.2]

     

    • "The Kretans, when the Hellenes sent to ask aid from them... acted as follows..." [Herodotos 7.169]

     

    • "The King [of Persia], now that his difference with the Hellenes was settled, made ready his armament for the war against Cyprus. For Evagoras had got possession of almost the whole of Cyprus and gathered strong armaments, because [king] Artaxerxes was distracted by the war against the Hellenes." [Diodoros of Sicily 14.110.5]

     

    • "The Lokrians... when they learned that Leonidas had arrived at Thermopylai, changed their minds and went over to the Hellenes." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.4.6]

     

    • "Now the Phokians had chosen the cause of the Hellenes, but seeing that they were unable to offer resistance... fled for safety to the rugged regions about Mount Parnassos." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.14.1]

     

    • "The Thebans, anticipating the arrival of a large army from Hellas to aid the Lakedaimonians [controlling the citadel of Thebes, the Kadmeia], dispatched envoys to Athens to remind them... and to request them to come with all their forces and assist them in reducing the Kadmeia before the arrival of the Lakedaimonians." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.25.4]

     

    • "All the Hellenes gladly received the proposal [of Artaxerxes, the Persian King], and all the cities agreed to a general peace except Thebes; for the Thebans alone, being engaged in bringing Boiotia under a single confederacy, were not admitted by the Hellenes because of the general determination to have the oaths and treaties made city by city." [Diodoros of Sicily 15.50.4]

     

    • "Since the Lakedaimonians made peace with all the Hellenes, they were in war only with the Thebans..." [Plutarch, Pelopidas 20]

     

    • "... the recorders of the Amphictyons [the hieromnemones] brought charges against the Phokians and... if they did not obey, they should incur the common hatred of the Hellenes." [Diodoros of Sicily 16.23.3]

     

    • "And Gelon replied with vehemence: `Hellenes,... you exhort me to join in league with you against the barbarian...' [Herodotos, 7.157]

     

    • "Gelon [the ruler of the Greek city of Syrakousai]... was making ready... to join the Hellenes in the war against the Persians." [Diodoros of Sicily 11.26.4]

     

    • "This is how they (the Kerkyraians) eluded the reproaches of the Hellenes. [Herodotos, 7.168]

     



    Edited by chicagogeorge - 07-Feb-2007 at 07:26
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    Posts: 207     		  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 12:44
    A nice video archive from the encyclopedia Britannica describing the shrine of Demeter at Dion, Macedonia circa 600 bc.

    http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/art-84145

    I guess you will have to copy the link since I cannot hyperlink it for some reason



    Edited by chicagogeorge - 11-Feb-2007 at 12:52
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 02:17
    Originally posted by Sharrukin.
     
    1.  Despite his Greek name, Alexander was written off as a "barbarian" by the Greek athletes, the cream of the crop of Greek society. 
     
    a.  Hence, it was a popular view that the Macedonians were considered barbarians. 
     
     b.  it was not enough to have a Greek name.  They were not impressed that this Macedonian had a Greek name.  In their point of view barbarians can bare Greek names."
     
    Sharrukin, I know this is what you posted from the beginning of the thread, but I have to ask you a few simple questions!
    Where exactly does Herodotus say that the Greek competitors called Alexander a "Barbarian"? From my book I only see the word "Foreigner". The word "Xenos" has a meaning of being a stranger but it also means someone foreign or strange to the lands of Olympia or Sparta or Athens!
     
    So if they did not know who he was would they not question his credentials? After all Alexander at that time was probably not well known by most Greeks.
     
    Finally, can you tell me the CONTEXT for the only 2 instances that the Macedonians or Philip were called "Barbarians"? You know one for certain, Demosthenes, but what was the other one? The CONTEXT is VERY important in order to make an argument using that term! What I mean is what was the political situation at the time the Macedonians or Philip were called "Barbarian"?
     
     
     
     
     


    Edited by Brasidas - 13-Feb-2007 at 02:19
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    		  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 02:40
    One further thing in Herodotus he uses the word "Makednons"(plural) Now "Makednos, n, -on" = Tall, Long. But that is in its singular form.
     
    So the term "Makednons" according to you is supposed to mean "The Talls" or "The Longs"
     
    Herodotus states as follows in Book 1 pg.22
     
    "...the neighborhood of Ossa and Olympus; driven from there by the Cadmeians they settled in Pindus and were known as Macednons; thence they migrated to Dryopis, and finally to the Peloponnese, where they got their present name of Dorians."
     
    So according to you this should actually be translated to;
     
    "... the Cadmeians they settled in Pindus and were known as The Talls; thence they migrated to Dryopis,..."
     
    Herodotus uses the term "Makednons" as a Tribal name not as a descriptor of what they looked like!
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    Posts: 1460     		  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 16:16
    Whenever the issue of ancient Macedonian greekness arises, i notice the same contradiction over and over. Until now as we all know all the archaeological inscriptions found and mostly Pella's curse tablet of 4th cent. BC, which is the only ancient 'Macedonian' text we have, are proving that Macedonians spoke a dialect related to North-West Greek, and this is a something the entirety of the scientific community agrees on.

    Now, if archaeologists discover eg. an inscription written in a different language, and its older than the existing ones, this is obviously evidence that Macedonia had a language/dialect which was not greek.

    But if they dont, as they havent found all these decades, this is only taken as evidence, that ancient Macedonia was simply 'Hellenized'.

    In other words, according to what people claim, if they find archaeological discoveries, older than the existing in a different language that's proof Macedonia wasnt greek and if they dont, its proof Macedonia was 'hellenized' therefore it wasnt greek again.

    Same contradiction exists with other arguments i read every now and then about Alexander declaring in every chance he was given that he was greek. The explanation of some is usually that Alexander was doing "propaganda".

    All these examples, mean exactly, nothing at all could be accepted as evidence that Macedonians were of greek origin since only evidence that they were not is counted.

    It is logical that in order to perform a genuine discussion of a theory people must permit the possibility of evidence that would count against it. If you do not, the discussion cannot be genuine or constructive, because a discussion that is run with the presumption that nothing could count as a failure of a point is no real discussion at all, but rather its a joke.

    Beware of the above guys, next time anyone will use the "Hellenization" argument against you

    http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ancient-macedonian-history/1822-hellenization-argument-contradiction.html#post15752
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    Posts: 1813     		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 11:56
    Correction Akritas.

    We have 3 Macedonian texts:

    1) Pela katadesmos http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=153368

    2) The arethousa tablet http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=153618

    3) The Derveni papyrus which is however mixed attic and macedonian. It is also the oldest papyrus in Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derveni_Papyrus

    In any case the pre-Attic period is characterized by a Western Greek language.

    When Pella katadesmos was found back in 1986, the linguists agreed that more than one inscription on the same dialect had to be found in order to hammer what macedonian is. 20 years later the language received the XMK ISO code and was classified as a Greek subgroup. Generally speaking a lot of the info on the net is outdated.


    Edited by Flipper - 18-Feb-2007 at 11:58


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    Posts: 4613     		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 06:43
    Originally posted by liburni

     well done brasidas!
    i agree with u couse not only alexander was called as barbarian but also all the others "nations" were called so by HERODOTIS......:>THIS means clearly that they weren"t greece people
    the politicans have made the history as they wanted it and not according to facts.
    if barbarian were not greek,what other tribus takes this nick that time except illyrians that lived near them????DisapproveQuestion....and also had their identity and culture as well????!!!!
    the others must think at lest according to your point of view and not almost from the books written rercently.............
    i suggest you read the whole thread before dropping in. AFAIK 'Barbarian' and its use isn't always ethnic, it may also be political or a dialectal put down. Either way the debate isn't as simple as that one argument


    Edited by Leonidas - 26-Feb-2007 at 06:50
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    Posts: 1813     		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 09:53
    Ehm, Liburni...I don't think you got Brasidas very well. Read again. Not only Brasidas but the whole thread. We don't want to go in circles. We've covered things never covered before and in a very specific manner when providing information.

    Respect that and please keep the same line.


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