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Who are the ancient Macedonians ?

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who are the ancient Macedonians ?
    Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 06:32
Originally posted by krater

i dont know, it's common sense to say this is that based on people's lifestyle: the today's nations are based on their culture&lifestyle-mentality...


Culture, language, common background for a wide period of time. Or do you suggest there are pure races in this planet?

Originally posted by krater


 
as for the language: it's too early to say if the mk lng was greek&if it was was, as such, spoken by the masses...



You can't escape with such a quote. Elaborate please. You didn't answer my question just avoided it. How much is needed in order to justify what language was spoken in an area? Maybe, with your logic, the Akkadian was an imaginary language cause it is too early to say what languages the Akkadians spoke judging from the thousands inscirptions. And...Who are you to say to the linguist community if it is early or not?

Originally posted by krater



as for the religion, it could, to my mind, be observed the other way around: THE GREEKS ACCEPTED THE RELIGION FROM THE DORIANS: we know the notion of zeus is indoeuropean and stands for the hunter-people, as opposed to the ''mother/earth'' godess; the doric ''molecule'' came in greece, met the previous ''substratum'' there, gave it its religion, etc...



Since, you go in circles without reaching a point. I ask you to answer the following 3 questions based on your answer above. If you believe in a healthy discussion DO NOT AVOID MY QUESTIONS AGAIN.

a) But, in Mycenae they already believed in the gods before the "return of the heraclidae". How does your  theory fit in here?

b) Can you give me 1 respected historian claiming the separation between Dorians and other Greeks?

c) From what I understand you believe Macedonians were Dorians, but you're not convinced that Dorians are Greeks?

Originally posted by krater



yes, i didnt mean to point at the ''arduous geology'' of the gr/mk border, but at the fact that if gr/mk were ''the same'' (obviously, i mean, they shared the same religion, but is IT enough for them to have been greek?)...



I said they shared more than religion. Religion, language, culture...What else is needed?

Originally posted by krater


so how is it they differed so much if they visited the same oracles, shared ''the same'' (primitive) customs (which, by definition, have their origin in religion)...lack of conntact can't change the same people so much...moreover they shared the common basis of life-the religion...


Can you define "so much"? If you read  the whole post, nor I or Akritas mention they difered "so much". They developed in another way. Besides, I believe they used the Oracle of Dodona, instead of Delphi.

Originally posted by krater


you're right i've ''travelled through time'' lol. i should go no further then the early (post Roman) gothic italy being under the great cultural influence of byzantinum, right...
[QUOTE]

Italy being in cultural influence of Byzantium??? Shocked

Originally posted by krater


i think the main reason for the greek considering the macedonians greek is the common religion of ''the couple'', but religion is a poor nations' determinator, in my opinion (hebrews, eg)...


What is a nations determinator? Each city state or Kindom in Greece was a nation of its own. You mean, ethnic determinator.


http://mapp.naccho.org/mapp_glossary.asp

"The classification of a population that shares common characteristics, such as religion, traditions, culture, language, and tribal or national origin"

Do you suggest another determinator?

Originally posted by krater


as to the female names, i think ''hellen'' was a sign of the ''respectable''-civilized, gentle and cultivated world south of macedonia: just as some of the names within the germanic people near ''Rome''...


What? How is a named a sign of "respectable"-civilized and cultivated world???? Confused
 
[QUOTE=krater]
well, from ''topix'' the most striking would be the so called: 3rd philippic slave lies'': how come Demosthenes could have lied about Philip ii. and mk slaves? i mean the both peoples did trade-they knew each other. how can it be possible that not even the same religion codes werent enough to ''equal'' them? whatsmore-greek in Athens KNEW what the greek enemies were saying about the greek slaves, were all the greek slaves not good then. remember, all the greeks met alexander at chaeronea based on ''all those lies''...I MEAN, COMMON SENSE-HOW CAN IT BE?!


You're still there and go in circles when this is analyzed 21341234 in this thread. I'll put it this way...Demosthenis refered to Philip, not all Macedonians. End of story...Now, this whole paragraph has been answered briefly in this thread.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 06:36
Originally posted by krater

 
why pre-hellenic?
 
Aeolians were dorian?



Who said that? Don't put words in people mouth.

Originally posted by krater


 
i'm still not convinced by ''the rough terrain''...werent there mk pilgrimages to greece-wasnt the people making contacts, there shouldve been a greater sense of common sense with the mks from the gr side...


 
Open Google earth and have a look if you're not convinced. Some posts ago you seemed to be unaware of the geography of the area.

Originally posted by krater


so the olympics are no valid tool for ''the greekness of the macedons?


Who said that Krater? Why are you doing this?


Originally posted by krater


the intruiging/mystique pella catadesmosClap...
but it involves religion again, doesnt it, sorry, still doubt...Unhappy 


Yes it is a magical scroll...But it is not the religion that is important on this one. It is the language!


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 06:38
Originally posted by krater

Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by krater

Originally posted by akritas

krater what are the ancient Macedonians for you ?
 
i still an not 100% sureConfused


Tell us this 99% or 85% then.
 
alas, the roads of truth are dangerous, still am waiting for the answers...Unhappy


Look, we're not stupid. I think the possibilities are higher that you're more willing to believe the Macedonians, after the comming of the Romans went to Siberia and returned in the 7th century as Slavic people. Wink

Now please...I have quoted every single paragraph of yours...Do not avoid answering my questions again if you want a answers as you say.



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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 09:34
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by krater

i dont know, it's common sense to say this is that based on people's lifestyle: the today's nations are based on their culture&lifestyle-mentality...


Culture, language, common background for a wide period of time. Or do you suggest there are pure races in this planet?

Originally posted by krater


 
as for the language: it's too early to say if the mk lng was greek&if it was was, as such, spoken by the masses...



You can't escape with such a quote. Elaborate please. You didn't answer my question just avoided it. How much is needed in order to justify what language was spoken in an area? Maybe, with your logic, the Akkadian was an imaginary language cause it is too early to say what languages the Akkadians spoke judging from the thousands inscirptions. And...Who are you to say to the linguist community if it is early or not?

Originally posted by krater



as for the religion, it could, to my mind, be observed the other way around: THE GREEKS ACCEPTED THE RELIGION FROM THE DORIANS: we know the notion of zeus is indoeuropean and stands for the hunter-people, as opposed to the ''mother/earth'' godess; the doric ''molecule'' came in greece, met the previous ''substratum'' there, gave it its religion, etc...



Since, you go in circles without reaching a point. I ask you to answer the following 3 questions based on your answer above. If you believe in a healthy discussion DO NOT AVOID MY QUESTIONS AGAIN.

a) But, in Mycenae they already believed in the gods before the "return of the heraclidae". How does your  theory fit in here?

b) Can you give me 1 respected historian claiming the separation between Dorians and other Greeks?

c) From what I understand you believe Macedonians were Dorians, but you're not convinced that Dorians are Greeks?

Originally posted by krater



yes, i didnt mean to point at the ''arduous geology'' of the gr/mk border, but at the fact that if gr/mk were ''the same'' (obviously, i mean, they shared the same religion, but is IT enough for them to have been greek?)...



I said they shared more than religion. Religion, language, culture...What else is needed?

Originally posted by krater


so how is it they differed so much if they visited the same oracles, shared ''the same'' (primitive) customs (which, by definition, have their origin in religion)...lack of conntact can't change the same people so much...moreover they shared the common basis of life-the religion...


Can you define "so much"? If you read  the whole post, nor I or Akritas mention they difered "so much". They developed in another way. Besides, I believe they used the Oracle of Dodona, instead of Delphi.

Originally posted by krater


you're right i've ''travelled through time'' lol. i should go no further then the early (post Roman) gothic italy being under the great cultural influence of byzantinum, right...
[QUOTE]

Italy being in cultural influence of Byzantium??? Shocked

Originally posted by krater


i think the main reason for the greek considering the macedonians greek is the common religion of ''the couple'', but religion is a poor nations' determinator, in my opinion (hebrews, eg)...


What is a nations determinator? Each city state or Kindom in Greece was a nation of its own. You mean, ethnic determinator.


http://mapp.naccho.org/mapp_glossary.asp

"The classification of a population that shares common characteristics, such as religion, traditions, culture, language, and tribal or national origin"

Do you suggest another determinator?

Originally posted by krater


as to the female names, i think ''hellen'' was a sign of the ''respectable''-civilized, gentle and cultivated world south of macedonia: just as some of the names within the germanic people near ''Rome''...


What? How is a named a sign of "respectable"-civilized and cultivated world???? Confused
 
[QUOTE=krater]
well, from ''topix'' the most striking would be the so called: 3rd philippic slave lies'': how come Demosthenes could have lied about Philip ii. and mk slaves? i mean the both peoples did trade-they knew each other. how can it be possible that not even the same religion codes werent enough to ''equal'' them? whatsmore-greek in Athens KNEW what the greek enemies were saying about the greek slaves, were all the greek slaves not good then. remember, all the greeks met alexander at chaeronea based on ''all those lies''...I MEAN, COMMON SENSE-HOW CAN IT BE?!


You're still there and go in circles when this is analyzed 21341234 in this thread. I'll put it this way...Demosthenis refered to Philip, not all Macedonians. End of story...Now, this whole paragraph has been answered briefly in this thread.
 
well, yannis, now you mention mixing-previously you say it was a rough terrain: you're not helping me...Ouch
 
sorry, i didnt mean to say it ''is'' but it WAS to early to say mk were greek, as smn mentioned on topix tetonic people and celtic spoke similar back then-look at how they pronounced ''3'' eg...Confused
 
mycenae is on crete, right? indoeuropeans (dorians) couldve gotten there by sea-i think the greeks considered the cretans barbaric to, am i rioght?Confused YOU SEE Y, IM PUZZLED BY THE REALITY OF THE LIFESTYLE AS THE NATIONS ''TRADEMARK'' (germans, scadninavians egTongueClap)
but IF the majority of the scientific say ALL doroans were gr, again, who knows, right, i mean we should remain sceptical-no scepsis-no science, as everything bout mk been ''found'', who knowsWink 
 
(religion+language)+culture = mentality. what about the mk-doric warlike mentality, yannis... i'm getting nowhereConfused
 
well, in my opinion yannis, they differed SO MUCH that the gr even offered the pers a large army against alex...they heard d oration-and as at it, what about the 3rd philippic ''lies'' of d? pleaseShocked
 
well, y, sure the sacral architecture in venice, ravena etcShocked
 
no, who determined athenians what nation they were-to my mind the politicians. on what ground: the will of the people-that's what democracy is, right? again were back to sq1: d and the ''3rd ph slave ''lies''Sleepy
 
no, i certainly am not, but thats the problem the gr being mk by THE defionition fails in the folling- , traditions, culture, language, and tribal or national originOuch
 
what you wanna say is: there werent similar ''egs'' in the germanic frontier world from where the romans recruited thei auxiliariesWink?
 
END OF STORY YANNISOuchShocked? please d spoke of mk(''gr'') slaves, how could the gr go to war because of all these motivation ''lies'', i mean in the ath etc. assemblies there were people chosen by  and FOR the PEOPLE, so d's view was widely accepted amongst the grs.
please, this and all the attached to it is the main reason people doubt, as much, blieve in the grness of the mksOuchShockedConfusedUnhappyCool
 
 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 12:00
Krater, i think you fall in the case of spamming right now:

1) You refer only to Yiannis, ignoring what i have mentioned.

2) I asked you to answer on some specific questions, dealing with your opinion, if you want a healthy discussion and really want to get answers.

3) You go in circles mentioning again the 3rd Philippic, which has been debated to death in the thread from the beginning.

4) Your posts make no sense anymore. You claim things without having data/evidence or quotes by legetimate historians. In other words, playarism.

5) You're using sophism. You do not suggest or present an opinion. I see deliberately invalid arguments displaying ingenuity in reasoning.

I feel you avoid speaking to me right now, quoting my post but answering to Yiannis.

Later I will make a list on every matter discussed here and link to the page it is mentioned. I guess after that, we only have the choise to move on to any other NEW non discussed matters. This is a thread with essays on the matter. I think it is pitty not to refer to them and mention the same things on and on.


Edited by Flipper - 29-Oct-2007 at 12:21


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 17:46
I will now summarize this thread in sections for future use, to avoid loops and circles. This is an incomplete list, but i will fill up as much as I can. Akritas, as a thread starter It would be good to put the points before your first mentioned quotes as an index.

UPDATED


Page 1

- Major Ancient Sources related to their origins
- Self determination of the royal house
- Etymology of Makedonia
- Non autochthonus origins of Macedonians in the Macedonian area.
- Olympics: Participation of Pheidon, brother of Karanus in the first Olympics, Participation of Alexander I in the Olympics.
- Hellenodikai
- Establishement of the Kindom
- Demosthenes

Page 2

- Hellenodikai (continued)
- Alternative etymological suggestions
- Yauna Takabara, the persian term for describing the Macedonians
- Further analysis on ancient historians

Page 3

- Etymological analysis of the term barbaros and its usage.
- Further analysis on ancient historians
- Geography of Macedonia, migrations and prehistory
- Common symbols between Macedonians and other Greeks
- Coinage
- Modern Historians

Page 4

- Etymological analysis of the term barbaros and its usage (continued)
- Alexander I and the term Philellen
- Demosthenes motives

Page 5

- Hellenization theories
- Examples of no-Hellenic populations that were Hellenized and their characteristics.
- Migrations and geography
- Corinthian influence in Macedonia.
- First man named Alexander
- Macedonians VS Phrygians

Page 6

- Archeology in Macedonia
- Geography and boundaries
- Athens, Macedonia and their relations during the 5th centry
- Attested Thracian tribes in  Macedonia
- Corinthian coinage at Therma (Thessaloniki) and corinthian settlements in Macedonian districts.
- Geometric Macedonia and its findings (Tombs, Keramics).
- Comparisson of Mycenaean and Macedonian artifacts from the bronze age.
- Idiomatic macedonian words

Page 7

- After the Phrygian migration
- Macedonian cementaries 13th cent BC
- Idiomatic macedonian words
- More ancient sources
- Archeology in Macedonia
- Modern Archeologists/Historians

Page 8

- Hammonds work analysis
- Hellanicus time in Macedonia
- Mysians
- Modern and Ancient Historians
- Mycenaean artifacts in Macedonian settlements

Page 9


- Mycenaean Argos VS Macedonia
- Burial customs
- Timeframes
- Clarification of Makedon and Makednos

Page 10

- Mycenaean Macedonia continued

Page 11


- Thesis of the various theories presented
- Summary

Page 12

- Brasidas speech to the Acanthians and comparisson to Demosthenes speech.
- Analysis from modern historians about Demosthenes motives.
- Spartans and their views on their enemies.

Page 13

- Macedonian inscription where Damon son of Nicanor is honoured for serving his homeland (patrida) and his people (reffered as Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks).
- Analysis of the Hellenization argument (external article by Akritas)


More to come...












Edited by Flipper - 02-Nov-2007 at 11:33


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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 19:43
Good job Flipper Clap
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 06:50
Originally posted by Flipper

Krater, i think you fall in the case of spamming right now:

1) You refer only to Yiannis, ignoring what i have mentioned.

2) I asked you to answer on some specific questions, dealing with your opinion, if you want a healthy discussion and really want to get answers.

3) You go in circles mentioning again the 3rd Philippic, which has been debated to death in the thread from the beginning.

4) Your posts make no sense anymore. You claim things without having data/evidence or quotes by legetimate historians. In other words, playarism.

5) You're using sophism. You do not suggest or present an opinion. I see deliberately invalid arguments displaying ingenuity in reasoning.

I feel you avoid speaking to me right now, quoting my post but answering to Yiannis.

Later I will make a list on every matter discussed here and link to the page it is mentioned. I guess after that, we only have the choise to move on to any other NEW non discussed matters. This is a thread with essays on the matter. I think it is pitty not to refer to them and mention the same things on and on.
 
no flipper, sorry if you feel like thatUnhappy
 
i'm quite a bussy man and seems i answered yannis bioth his and your questions. as such a man i tend to save time. thought you'd be able to understand the ''big picture'' of my previous post, but seems i too ''am going in circles'' like some of the topix participants who're searching for the truth about mkOuchUnhappyCool
 
you mention historians? herodotus says mks say they're grs ''SO THAT I  CAN BE ABLE TO KNOW THEY'RE GR''. doesnt he IMply that he's got their word only here?Confused
arian talks about mk and gr using the word genesis and not fillaShocked
 
THE 3RD PHILIPPIC IS OF THE UTMOST IMPORTANCE HERE, flipper. it's a masterpiece, you say d lied, and succeeded in fooling his fellow deputies who, HELLOShocked, mustve AT LEAST known the people's view of the mks, yet d utters ''complete'' lies of ''greek'' ie mk slaves.  
 
are you trying to attack in order to defendShocked? some insecure people on topix do that, that's why i dont feel like going there anymoreUnhappy
 
i guess you could if you WISH call me ''a sophist'', but you still dont answer to my questions, sorry Unhappy...
 
ingenuity in reasoningClapAngry? who are you to talk like that to me and not answering my questions? i mean where's the ingenuity: what about the germanic auxilliaries in the roman army and the roman names they used? what about the gr-byzantium culture in italy (the parallel i used for mk)
what about the inappropriety of the use of religion in ethnicity determination? and the teutonic and celtic languages vs macedonian and greek? etc. I REALLY AM SORRY TO SAY all that is left unanswered-moreover NONE OF YOU PEOPLE has EVEN tried to answerUnhappy
 
youre intellectual, i can see that, still you give me links. cant you make summaries and thus answer my questions?Shocked whats with all that bitternessUnhappy for goodness sakeConfusedcall spade a spadeCool  
 
could you please suggest for a non-one-nationality led and moderated history forum? all of you are gr here right? please dont get xenophobic and paranoid-on topix your people tend to it- i'm not implying anything by the last questionUnhappy
 
 
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 06:57
Originally posted by Flipper

I will now summarize this thread in sections for future use, to avoid loops and circles. This is an incomplete list, but i will fill up as much as I can. Akritas, as a thread starter It would be good to put the points before your first mentioned quotes as an index.



Page 1

- Major Ancient Sources related to their origins
- Self determination of the royal house
- Etymology of Makedonia
- Non autochthonus origins of Macedonians in the Macedonian area.
- Olympics: Participation of Pheidon, brother of Karanus in the first Olympics, Participation of Alexander I in the Olympics.
- Hellenodikai
- Establishement of the Kindom
- Demosthenes

Page 2

- Hellenodikai (continued)
- Alternative etymological suggestions
- Yauna Takabara, the persian term for describing the Macedonians
- Further analysis on ancient historians

Page 3

- Etymological analysis of the term barbaros and its usage.
- Further analysis on ancient historians
- Geography of Macedonia, migrations and prehistory
- Common symbols between Macedonians and other Greeks
- Coinage
- Modern Historians

Page 4

- Etymological analysis of the term barbaros and its usage (continued)
- Alexander I and the term Philellen

Page 5

- Hellenization theories
- Examples of no-Hellenic populations that were Hellenized and their characteristics.
- Migrations and geography
- Corinthian influence in Macedonia.
- First man named Alexander
- Macedonians VS Phrygians

Page 6

- Archeology in Macedonia
- Geography and boundaries
- Athens, Macedonia and their relations during the 5th centry
- Attested Thracian tribes in  Macedonia
- Corinthian coinage at Therma (Thessaloniki) and corinthian settlements in Macedonian districts.
- Geometric Macedonia and its findings (Tombs, Keramics).
- Comparisson of Mycenaean and Macedonian artifacts from the bronze age.
- Idiomatic macedonian words

Page 7

- After the Phrygian migration
- Macedonian cementaries 13th cent BC
- Idiomatic macedonian words
- More ancient sources
- Archeology in Macedonia
- Modern Archeologists/Historians

Page 8

- Hammonds work analysis
- Hellanicus time in Macedonia
- Mysians
- Modern and Ancient Historians
- Mycenaean artifacts in Macedonian settlements

Page 9


- Mycenaean Argos VS Macedonia
- Burial customs
- Timeframes
- Clarification of Makedon and Makednos

Page 10

- Mycenaean Macedonia continued

Page 11


- Thesis of the various theories presented
- Summary



More to come...










 
as a history enthusiast-waiting for answers to mk questions-i'm really looking forward to it, thank you
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  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 07:52
Krater could you please, please, calm your aggressive tone. Also, please try to put forward your argument in a succinct manner, without using capitals and smilies like it's the summer of '69. That would be great thanks. This topic is being monitored. 
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 12:09
irrelevant posts have been hidden, this thread is under a close watch.

Krater you better listen to Knights.


Edited by Leonidas - 31-Oct-2007 at 12:14
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  Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 16:16

I was responding to the nature of the posts being offered Leonidas, I was essentially verbalising my irreverent attitude to the way the topic is being discussed by ironically posting a nonchalant response to a 'discussion' that is anything but nonchalant, and by nature pointless.

Or failing that, i'm sorry and won't do it again..

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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 17:54
Originally posted by Leonidas

irrelevant posts have been hidden, this thread is under a close watch.

Krater you better listen to Knights.
 
i would expect it to be so, leonidas.
 
if it suits you better i'd give up the emoticons-i'm a passionate history lover. you know, ''passion-emoticons''...
 
i have nothing to lose on this forum by doing so-only to gain: once ANYBODY AT LEAST tries and answer my questions...
 
if i'm not given the answers i desire, sorry-one '' was mk gr'' ''desperate sympathizer'' less for gr, i'm afraid...
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 18:03
Originally posted by Dolphin

I was responding to the nature of the posts being offered Leonidas, I was essentially verbalising my irreverent attitude to the way the topic is being discussed by ironically posting a nonchalant response to a 'discussion' that is anything but nonchalant, and by nature pointless.

Or failing that, i'm sorry and won't do it again..

 
sorry if i hurt your sense for ''perfection'', but the ancient macedonian times were far from perfect-i love the period-want to know as much about it as possible.
 
history is very interesting, wouldnt you agree? and as such causes his majesty THE QUESTION to arise. i dont believe in ''l'historie pour l'historie'' (is that how the french people would say-i can spell ''art''LOL, but am not sure for ''historie''-''histoire''Smile 
 
please, please, please someone answer my previos posts' questions or ''redirect'' me somewhere else...
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 18:12
Ok, krater I will answer you with all references from here. The answers are already in this thread, but I can understand it can be difficult to read a thread where each post could be two A4 papers. However, I expect you to answer my questions as well.

Originally posted by krater

you mention historians? herodotus says mks say they're grs ''SO THAT I  CAN BE ABLE TO KNOW THEY'RE GR''. doesnt he IMply that he's got their word only here?Confused


What are you trying to say? That Herodotus needed to make a poll or something? Maybe an inscription (page 13 on this thread) from Macedonia where the word "patrida" (homeland) is attributed to Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks would solve the problem?

Originally posted by krater


arian talks about mk and gr using the word genesis and not fillaShocked

 
I still don't understand what you mean here. Can you please post the quote, page and paragraph where he says something like that? Etymologically those things are unrelated since genesis means birth and fila means tribes.

Originally posted by krater



THE 3RD PHILIPPIC IS OF THE UTMOST IMPORTANCE HERE, flipper. it's a masterpiece, you say d lied, and succeeded in fooling his fellow deputies who, HELLOShocked, mustve AT LEAST known the people's view of the mks, yet d utters ''complete'' lies of ''greek'' ie mk slaves. 



How is a political speech of utmost importance and not a historic work
? In what way is it a masterpeace? Rhetorically I guess...

To analyze you the 3rd Philippic, i will start with the basics.

a) Demosthenes desperately attacks Philip on the 3rd Philippic while Philip is "knocking his door". In other words, when the situation gets really bad.
 
b) To avoid any confusions and the partial terminology of the term "barbaros", I'll refer to the following:

b.1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian
b.2) All Empires - "Who are the ancient Macedonians" page 3, post 1.

c) The political speech of Demosthenes is identical to Brasidas speech against the Athenians.

Before going further with that I will quote fellow Sharrukin, who presented a more skeptical view but about the early years, not that the Macedonians were not considered Greeks during Philips and Alexander the greats time.

Sharrukin on this thread pg. 4
On the other hand there is evidence from Thucydides that the Spartans and Athenians regarded each other as Greeks (4.20.4).  Again, since there is other sample evidence to show that both were regarded as Greek, the term "barbarian" must be seen in the light of political infighting, as a term of insult, marking off their enemies as "lower" than they.

Now, here comes some extracts from Brasidas speech. For full view refer to page 12 on this thread. Tell me if Demosthenes did not copy paste that Shocked

Acanthians, the Lacedaemonians have sent out me and my army to make good the reason that we gave for the war when we began it, viz. that we were going to war with the Athenians in order to FREE HELLAS


It will be a terrible thing if after this you have other intentions, and mean to stand in the way of your own and HELLENIC FREEDOM

And for myself, I have come here not to hurt but to free the Hellenes, witness the solemn oaths by which I have bound my government that the allies that I may bring over shall be independent; and besides my object in coming is not by force or fraud to obtain your alliance, but to offer you mine to help you against your Athenian MASTERS.

This would be heavier than a foreign yoke; and we Lacedaemonians instead of being thanked for our pains, should get neither honour nor glory, but contrariwise reproaches.

I shall do so without scruple, being justified by the necessity which constrains me, first, to prevent the Lacedaemonians from being damaged by you, their friends, in the event of your non-adhesion, through the monies that you pay to the Athenians; and secondly, to prevent the HELLENES from being hindered by you in shaking off their SERVITUDE. [4] Otherwise indeed we should have no right to act as we propose; except in the name of some public interest, what call should we Lacedaemonians have to free those who do not wish it?


You can read the whole speech of Brasidas here (History of the Peloponesean war Book IV) and see where Demosthenes got his masterpiece.

I will also post one quote from the page I mentioned, made by Errington in his work "A History of Macedonia, p4".

Accusations of Macedonians being barbarians started in Athens and they were the result of political fabrications based on the Macedonian way of life and not on their ethnicity or language.

Demosthenes traveled to Macedonia twice for a total of nine months.  He knew very well what language the Macedonians were speaking.  We encountered similar behavior with Thrasyboulos. He states that the Acarnanians were barbarians only when the Athenians encountered a conflict of political interest from the AcarnaniansThe Macedonian way of life differed in many ways from the southern Greek way of life, but that was very common among the Western Greeks such as Chaones, Molossians, Thesprotians, Acarnanians, Aetolians and Macedonians.

Now, i think those are enough sources to have a look on. As my last point I will mention again that Demosthenes, called Philip a barbarian, not the Macedonians. The fact that he mentions that you can't buy a good slave is irrelevant to the Macedonians. Does a market decide your background or what?

Originally posted by krater



are you trying to attack in order to defendShocked? some insecure people on topix do that, that's why i dont feel like going there anymoreUnhappy
 


No, i was sharp there cause this thread is full of precious data. Many of your questions are answered inside it and I would personally like to keep it clean and consise. That's why I would like if people were more carefull and precise and their answers, so that anyone can easily find his way through it. I asked specific questions to lead you to answers but they were ignored. Moreover I told you many times you can find the answers if you read this thread.

Originally posted by krater



i guess you could if you WISH call me ''a sophist'', but you still dont answer to my questions, sorry Unhappy...



I've answered the same questions 32548923572365935 times in my life. Moreover, i suggested you this thread which since you are a busy man you could read and save time (and mine as well) instead of asking the same questions already possed in the past.
 
Originally posted by krater


what about the inappropriety of the use of religion in ethnicity determination?


It depends the religion. The Greek and Jewish religion has a geneological character as well. Since the Macedonians never modified their religion like the Romans (origins of Latinus for example), they have not shown signs of rejecting it.

Originally posted by krater



and the teutonic and celtic languages vs macedonian and greek? etc. I REALLY AM SORRY TO SAY all that is left unanswered-moreover NONE OF YOU PEOPLE has EVEN tried to answerUnhappy



I do not know what you want to say here. Give examples please.

Originally posted by krater


youre intellectual, i can see that, still you give me links. cant you make summaries and thus answer my questions?Shocked whats with all that bitternessUnhappy for goodness sakeConfusedcall spade a spadeCool  


I explained to you  some paragraphs above. Please  understand my possition. You can see clearly i have spent uncountable hours writting for this forum.

Originally posted by krater


could you please suggest for a non-one-nationality led and moderated history forum? all of you are gr here right? please dont get xenophobic and paranoid-on topix your people tend to it- i'm not implying anything by the last questionUnhappy


This is not a non-one-nationality forum. It is not a greek forum. There are moderators who are Greek, Turkish, Afgan, South Americans, North Americans, Asians and so on. I'm can't remember all countries represented by the moderators. Besides, I have to say this is one of the few history forums on the net which has some serious moderation and strict rules. That is why i'm here.

The fact you see Yiannis and Leonidas here is because they've been around for a long time, they are respected and do their job correctly. Add  the fact that this is their area of responsibility, since it is the mediterranean part of All Empires.



I think i've answered you briefly now...I have given you enough refferences about the matter. If I have missed some other question let me know...BUT! Have a look at the previous pages in case the question has been answered or not.

Can you now please answer my three questions from my first post on this page?


Edited by Flipper - 31-Oct-2007 at 19:36


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  Quote gty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2011 at 08:27
The Greeks were only third in number in Alexandru army ,after Macedonians and Thracians , so the claim that Greeks conquered the Achaemenid is ridiculous, and Macedonians and Greeks considered themselves different nations in that era ,and probably were

Athenians and peloponesians are macedonians just like irish are gauls/french, related but not same





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