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Who are the ancient Macedonians ?

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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who are the ancient Macedonians ?
    Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 00:20

[/QUOTE] krater
 
you say it was popular that macedonians were considered barbarian. are there some other examples where the same people is being considered as barbaric by its compatriots?Ermm
 
[/QUOTE]
 
A very good example would be the Spartans, who in fact, considered the whole of Greece, with the exception of themselves, as "barbaric".


Edited by Penelope - 27-Oct-2007 at 00:21
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  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 01:40
The same is the case for the Athenians, but the other way around. Athenian mindset saw Spartans as inferior, ill-educated machos - including the women! This state of mind is reflected in Aristophanes' play Lysistrata - the Spartan woman is portrayed with a "pirate"-like voice, who can't talk properly.etc. Quite a humourous play actually. I think the rivalry between a lot of the Greek City States meant they told themselves though all Greeks, that they in particular were superior. This same feeling of "barbarism" extended to foreign policy as well.
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 01:58
Originally posted by Knights

The same is the case for the Athenians, but the other way around. Athenian mindset saw Spartans as inferior, ill-educated machos - including the women! This state of mind is reflected in Aristophanes' play Lysistrata - the Spartan woman is portrayed with a "pirate"-like voice, who can't talk properly.etc. Quite a humourous play actually. I think the rivalry between a lot of the Greek City States meant they told themselves though all Greeks, that they in particular were superior. This same feeling of "barbarism" extended to foreign policy as well.
 
True indeed, and very well put, the Athenians also thought it barbaric for a nation to be ruled by Kings. Greeks were continuously calling other Greeks "barbarians". So it shouldnt really come as a surprise that the inhabitants of Macedon were labelled as such.
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  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 02:04
What was it about autocracy that the Athenians didn't like? Was it just that they didn't fancy the idea of sole (or in the Spartans case, dual) rule, being the "democratic" state they were? Plus, the five ephors could overrule the King/s as a whole couldn't they?
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 10:39
i dont know, people...you put the greeks, the spartans and the macedonians under one denominator: hellenes.
i couldn't really say if that'd be really justified: i mean the dorian warlike lifestyle common to both macedonians and spartans...
doesnt that cause you ask further questions?Confused
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 10:45
this ''barbarian'' term...must it have the same meaning when applied to dorians and (the rest of) hellenes?
i mean today's term ''yankees'': originally it was meant to describe the non-confederates, whereas today it's globally being used to denote the american people, am i right? Confused
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 10:54
Originally posted by Knights

What was it about autocracy that the Athenians didn't like? Was it just that they didn't fancy the idea of sole (or in the Spartans case, dual) rule, being the "democratic" state they were? Plus, the five ephors could overrule the King/s as a whole couldn't they?
 
i think athenians didnt like autocracy because it reminded them of sparta. the spartans, to my mind, were a different kind of people than the athenians. moreover i think it MUST HAVE BEEN BASED on negative experiences of the athenians with the spartans long time before written historyWink
spartans must have been some kind of a nail that penetrated through the hellenic area of greece.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 11:27
Originally posted by krater

i dont know, people...you put the greeks, the spartans and the macedonians under one denominator: hellenes.
i couldn't really say if that'd be really justified: i mean the dorian warlike lifestyle common to both macedonians and spartans...
doesnt that cause you ask further questions?Confused


To add something to Penelopes answer to you. The Aetolians were by far the most hated Greek nation. If the Philippic would tell something about the Macedonians, what the whole of Greece tells us about the Aetolians is that they were not just barbarians, but unhumans, or better said animals.

On this thread you will also see a post i've made about the speech of Brasidas of Sparta who uses exactly the same rhetoric like Demosthenes when he tryes to get allies against Athens.

The questions about common cultural characteristics between Macedonians and Spartan...Those have been answered as well here. There's nothing strange about the connection with the spartans. The Dorians founded Sparta. Many tribes of Peloponesus came from the north.

As for what you mentioned about grouping these people as Hellenes. I will give you a simple answer...There have been two groups of scholars in this issue. 1) A vast number recognising the Macedonians, as a separate Hellenic group, close to the Western Greeks, that was isolated and formed a culture of their own, 2) Some historians being skeptical if the Macedonians were Greeks, Thracians, Phrygians or a mix of all these, that was later Hellenized BUT who recognise (Like Borza) that the Royal House is of Greek descend.

If we take the second group of scholar, NONE have been able to prove there ever was a Hellenization. Simply because:

1) From the 13th century where the first Macedonian settlements appear, we have a culture close to the mycenaean. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

2) After the Hellenes passed from Linear B to the current alphabet, the Macedonians almost adapted it immediately. The Greek alphabet has been in use with a small delay in Macedonia. The earliest fragments of Macedonian writting is on personal belongings where people have written their name on. The oldest papyrus in Europe comes from Macedonia and is a mix of the native dialect and attic. The Attic elements at that early stage befor coine have been attributed to the fact that the man who wrote it was possibly schooled by Anaxagoras and therefore used a lot of attic in his writtings. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

3) The religion has been common for them at a very early stage. The only difference is for example that they worshipped Hercules from whom they believed they descended from. Similar behaviour is seen though in Samothraki. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

4) At the classical age theaters were spotted only in Greece. Much later you will find them in Rome and Thrace. While neighbouring Thrace has no theaters except from the Greek colonies, Macedonia has four of them. The famous work of Euripides "Bacchae" was written and performed in Macedonia. The work is written in Greek which means the audience could attend Greek performances and didn't need a special adjustments. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

5) As Sharrukin commented Alexander I had to proove his herritage to enter the Olympics. However, he was able to participate and so did other Macedonians as well, since the Hellinodikai (Greekness judges) allowed it. The existance of Hellinodikai was to verify if someone was Greek or not. Since they existed at the time of Alexander I, it means many other Greeks passed through their judgement, eather because they were accused because of jealussy or came from areas that were not very well known to some of the competitors that objected. A person that wanted to participate in the olympics needed a lot of time and foremost money to achieve something. Any hard competitor like Alexander I was a threat and forced some atheletes to do anything to keep him out of the contest. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

6) The symbols used from time to time are common with other Greeks. The Vergina star, appears first in the Trojan war, where the western Greek generals have the 16-ray star on the left shoulder and the 8-ray star on the right. See the picture of Achilleus in this thead. Most important though is the existence of the maianders in their art, shields and religious monuments. Except from the great religious value of the symbol to the Greeks, it is believed it is used in battle to distinct an ally from an enemy. In the trojan war various people are reported to be dressed "like Greeks" or in "the Greek fashion". Warlike Greek fashion always include maianders. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

There are more points but these are enough. In other words, you have no clear sign that there was a Hellenization. Just theories.

Now, please have a closer look on this thead. All details and answers are here.

Now how come, you focus just on this matter from all the subjects presented in All Empires?







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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 16:57
krater what are the ancient Macedonians for you ?
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 10:55
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by krater

i dont know, people...you put the greeks, the spartans and the macedonians under one denominator: hellenes.
i couldn't really say if that'd be really justified: i mean the dorian warlike lifestyle common to both macedonians and spartans...
doesnt that cause you ask further questions?Confused


To add something to Penelopes answer to you. The Aetolians were by far the most hated Greek nation. If the Philippic would tell something about the Macedonians, what the whole of Greece tells us about the Aetolians is that they were not just barbarians, but unhumans, or better said animals.

On this thread you will also see a post i've made about the speech of Brasidas of Sparta who uses exactly the same rhetoric like Demosthenes when he tryes to get allies against Athens.

The questions about common cultural characteristics between Macedonians and Spartan...Those have been answered as well here. There's nothing strange about the connection with the spartans. The Dorians founded Sparta. Many tribes of Peloponesus came from the north.

As for what you mentioned about grouping these people as Hellenes. I will give you a simple answer...There have been two groups of scholars in this issue. 1) A vast number recognising the Macedonians, as a separate Hellenic group, close to the Western Greeks, that was isolated and formed a culture of their own, 2) Some historians being skeptical if the Macedonians were Greeks, Thracians, Phrygians or a mix of all these, that was later Hellenized BUT who recognise (Like Borza) that the Royal House is of Greek descend.

If we take the second group of scholar, NONE have been able to prove there ever was a Hellenization. Simply because:

1) From the 13th century where the first Macedonian settlements appear, we have a culture close to the mycenaean. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

2) After the Hellenes passed from Linear B to the current alphabet, the Macedonians almost adapted it immediately. The Greek alphabet has been in use with a small delay in Macedonia. The earliest fragments of Macedonian writting is on personal belongings where people have written their name on. The oldest papyrus in Europe comes from Macedonia and is a mix of the native dialect and attic. The Attic elements at that early stage befor coine have been attributed to the fact that the man who wrote it was possibly schooled by Anaxagoras and therefore used a lot of attic in his writtings. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

3) The religion has been common for them at a very early stage. The only difference is for example that they worshipped Hercules from whom they believed they descended from. Similar behaviour is seen though in Samothraki. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

4) At the classical age theaters were spotted only in Greece. Much later you will find them in Rome and Thrace. While neighbouring Thrace has no theaters except from the Greek colonies, Macedonia has four of them. The famous work of Euripides "Bacchae" was written and performed in Macedonia. The work is written in Greek which means the audience could attend Greek performances and didn't need a special adjustments. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

5) As Sharrukin commented Alexander I had to proove his herritage to enter the Olympics. However, he was able to participate and so did other Macedonians as well, since the Hellinodikai (Greekness judges) allowed it. The existance of Hellinodikai was to verify if someone was Greek or not. Since they existed at the time of Alexander I, it means many other Greeks passed through their judgement, eather because they were accused because of jealussy or came from areas that were not very well known to some of the competitors that objected. A person that wanted to participate in the olympics needed a lot of time and foremost money to achieve something. Any hard competitor like Alexander I was a threat and forced some atheletes to do anything to keep him out of the contest. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

6) The symbols used from time to time are common with other Greeks. The Vergina star, appears first in the Trojan war, where the western Greek generals have the 16-ray star on the left shoulder and the 8-ray star on the right. See the picture of Achilleus in this thead. Most important though is the existence of the maianders in their art, shields and religious monuments. Except from the great religious value of the symbol to the Greeks, it is believed it is used in battle to distinct an ally from an enemy. In the trojan war various people are reported to be dressed "like Greeks" or in "the Greek fashion". Warlike Greek fashion always include maianders. (Analyzed briefly in this thread)

There are more points but these are enough. In other words, you have no clear sign that there was a Hellenization. Just theories.

Now, please have a closer look on this thead. All details and answers are here.

Now how come, you focus just on this matter from all the subjects presented in All Empires?





 
You mention curetes and leleges (aeolians). i looked in wikipedia and found they're closely connected-leleges are of doric stock as are the curetes. i'm still not convinced they shared the common lifestyle with the ''other'' greek, which would mean they were a separate genealogy entity.
 
you say they were isolated. why? i mean, there were no natural boundaries: the phenicians sailed the seas but they still knew they were from today's Lebanon, right?Confused
 
they worshiped hercules: i dont know if that means they were greek afterall: i would like to know if the prehistory indoeuropeans had a god figure who'd equall hercules. and some would argue that by means of worshipping hecules they wanted to distinguish themselves from the non-warlike people from the south-the greeks.
 
as for the theatre, i dont suppose there might have been use of macedonian actors or guesting acting troop?
 
yes but how can we take the olympics into a serious account if there was money ie. bribe involved: to my mind, alexander I was a monarch, determined macedonian (we know his dorian stock) and probably wealther than any of the athenians.Confused
 
as for the art/architecture/sun i'm not sure-americans on capitol hill eg. are using the historicism architechture: are they romans? also the italian military uses rooster's feathers as decoration, although the rooster is ''a trademark'' of the gaules.Confused
 
maybe they're were hellenized: that would explain for their choice of Hercules. Shame we don't know how the macedonian masses spoke (we dont know how the norman masses spoke either, for that matter).Confused
 
How come ancient macedonians? well, i'm a topix forum lover and one of the most visited forum is the macedonian, greek name issue. to my mind, a lot of plausible, thoughtprovoking thoughts arise there from the mk side. the greek participants fail to answer some delicate questions that have bearing to the matter in my opinion. i enjoyed the alexander movie of o stone: as much as i would like that macedonians were greek seeing it it doesn't fit in my picture. Ouch
i just want to know the truth on that matter of enourmous historical value. Wink
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 10:59
Originally posted by akritas

krater what are the ancient Macedonians for you ?
 
i still an not 100% sureConfused
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 11:25
Originally posted by krater

 to my mind, alexander I was a monarch, determined macedonian (we know his dorian stock) and probably wealther than any of the athenians.Confused
 
You pose so many questions, it's hard to focus. On the wealth issue, I have to say that Athenian economic power was unprecedented in the Greek world and it stemmed from shipping and commerce as well as contributions from allies. Alexander I was a poor relative in comparison.
 
This is an interesting article on Athenian navy. http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/rowing/trireme/thesis.html#fig2
 
Athens, in 431 had a surplus of 6,000 talents in their coffers. That was enough to finance the building of 6,000 triremes! In comparison that would means that a modern day American city of 300,000 citizens had a reserve of 3,000,000,000 USD in cash!
 
Try some books that will shed light on your questions on ancient Macedonians. Hammond, Droysen, Fuller come to mind and there're more.
 
 
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 11:39
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by krater

 to my mind, alexander I was a monarch, determined macedonian (we know his dorian stock) and probably wealther than any of the athenians.Confused
 
You pose so many questions, it's hard to focus. On the wealth issue, I have to say that Athenian economic power was unprecedented in the Greek world and it stemmed from shipping and commerce as well as contributions from allies. Alexander I was a poor relative in comparison.
 
This is an interesting article on Athenian navy. http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/rowing/trireme/thesis.html#fig2
 
Athens, in 431 had a surplus of 6,000 talents in their coffers. That was enough to finance the building of 6,000 triremes! In comparison that would means that a modern day American city of 300,000 citizens had a reserve of 3,000,000,000 USD in cash!
 
Try some books that will shed light on your questions on ancient Macedonians. Hammond, Droysen, Fuller come to mind and there're more.
 
 
 
yes, thank you, very plausible: anyhow the bribe is a hear-say issue to it attached is politics etc. so it wasn't necessarily bribe involved.Confused
how sure can we be of the judges independence at the time?
please, let's discuss it here, it's sunday. afterall we have this forum don't we? bur if you haven't got the time, it's ok then...Approve
please some of answers to the rest of the questions, should you be able to answer...Smile
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 11:58
Originally posted by krater

 
You mention curetes and leleges (aeolians). i looked in wikipedia and found they're closely connected-leleges are of doric stock
 
Leleges are supposivelly pre-Hellenic populations, such as the elusive "Pelasgian. They were not of Doric descent.
Aeolians were not Leleges.
 
 
Originally posted by krater

you say they were isolated. why? i mean, there were no natural boundaries
  
 
Roads were practically non-existrend, as we know them today, in ancient Greece. Most were merelly paths or dirt roads with limited accesibility and ability to transport large quantities of goods. That is why most of the communication was done by ships and the reason most successful cities possesed harbors. So most agricicultural communities were isolated and the rugged terrain of Greece was a factor.
 
 
 
Originally posted by krater

they worshiped hercules: i dont know if that means they were greek afterall: i would like to know if the prehistory indoeuropeans had a god figure who'd equall hercules. and some would argue that by means of worshipping hecules they wanted to distinguish themselves from the non-warlike people from the south-the greeks.
  
Hercules was worshiped throughtout Greece, Ionians, Dorians and Aeolians alike. One of the most important celebrations in the Greek world was held in Athens and another in Arcadia
 
Originally posted by krater

as for the theatre, i dont suppose there might have been use of macedonian actors or guesting acting troop?
  
Usually the plays and actors came from cities like Athens or Corinth.
 
Originally posted by krater

yes but how can we take the olympics into a serious account if there was money ie. bribe involved: to my mind, alexander I was a monarch, determined macedonian (we know his dorian stock) and probably wealther than any of the athenians.Confused
  You can never really be sure of anything, but we also have no accounts for the contrary. You are entering conspiracy theory arguments.
 
 
 
Originally posted by krater

Shame we don't know how the macedonian masses spoke (we dont know how the norman masses spoke either, for that matter).
 
We have records that suggest that Macedonian was a Dorian dialect. SOme loan words from Thracian and Frygian exist only to prove the above fact. All official epigraphy is in Greek. The only find we have of the language the common people used is the "Pella Katadesmos" a curse that was found in a Macedonian temple and it is in Greek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet
 


Edited by Yiannis - 28-Oct-2007 at 12:07
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 12:41
Originally posted by krater


 
You mention curetes and leleges (aeolians). i looked in wikipedia and found they're closely connected-leleges are of doric stock as are the curetes. i'm still not convinced they shared the common lifestyle with the ''other'' greek, which would mean they were a separate genealogy entity.


I did not mention curetes and leleges...Those were anyway not Dorians. The Dorians didn't share common lifestyle with all Greeks, but with other Dorians and other minor tribes that are clearly attested Hellenes. Now, can you tell me what is not Greek in the Dorians or generally in the western speaking dialect tribes? Their language which is the biggest language group of Greek together with Attic? Their religion, when the oldest pantheon temple was in their land? Their cellebrations? Their architecture? Their speeches? Can you give some examples on the Dorians and their time?

Originally posted by krater


you say they were isolated. why? i mean, there were no natural boundaries: the phenicians sailed the seas but they still knew they were from today's Lebanon, right?Confused


You obviously don't know the geography of the area. You have mount olympus and the pindus chain between north&west and south&east. In modern times, before the modern Egnatia road was built it took 7 hours from Thessaloniki to Ioannina (124 miles). 50 years ago, the trip by train from Athens to Thessaloniki (312 miles) was 19 hours due to the mountainous passages it had to pass, although the biggest part of the trip is plain. Do I need to say more?


Originally posted by krater


 
they worshiped hercules: i dont know if that means they were greek afterall: i would like to know if the prehistory indoeuropeans had a god figure who'd equall hercules. and some would argue that by means of worshipping hecules they wanted to distinguish themselves from the non-warlike people from the south-the greeks.


Cause they believed they descended from him. I mentioned it just for the record. Compare them to the Romans that adopted the same religion. What is the difference between the Romans and the Macedonians on religion? Can you tell me what you know about the Pantheon that makes you draw conclutions?
 
Originally posted by krater


as for the theatre, i dont suppose there might have been use of macedonian actors or guesting acting troop?


Why?  Do you suggest they were incapable of acting? That is a poor argument. Generally, wherever macedonians appear on panhellenic acts, they appear to speak Doric. Actors that are possing as non Greeks in an act use imaginary funny phrases and speak malformed Greek.

Originally posted by krater



yes but how can we take the olympics into a serious account if there was money ie. bribe involved: to my mind, alexander I was a monarch, determined macedonian (we know his dorian stock) and probably wealther than any of the athenians.Confused



a) Can you prove there was bribing to enter the contest? Besides, Alexander was questioned when arrived. He had to make a public speech. Did he managed to bribe the Hellenodikai while he was making the speech? What was he? A magician?

b) They were not wealther at that time at all. Athens and Corynth was by far the richest. Besides, Athens was not the one to decide for everyone. Remember that the olympics had participants from hundreds of places. Why do you focus on Athens?
 
Originally posted by krater


as for the art/architecture/sun i'm not sure-americans on capitol hill eg. are using the historicism architechture: are they romans? also the italian military uses rooster's feathers as decoration, although the rooster is ''a trademark'' of the gaules.Confused


Poor argument since you compare a timeframe that is huge. After how many years did the Americans decided to build the those? Are all houses in the US of Greek/Roman architecture? And even the Romans brough Greek architecturers to decorate Rome. Do you have a similar account for Macedonia?

Originally posted by krater


maybe they're were hellenized: that would explain for their choice of Hercules. Shame we don't know how the macedonian masses spoke (we dont know how the norman masses spoke either, for that matter).Confused


a) Noone has so far being able to proove they were Hellenized. Just in theory. Can you proove how they got suddenly Hellenized?

b) How much evidence is needed to justify what the masses spoke? Aren't thousand of inscriptions enough? There were women i Macedonia called Hellas, Hellen etc. Do you know many people calling their children after a foreign countrys name (as you suggest foreign)? Besides, you have the linguist community coining the native language as IEGB two years ago and giving it an ISO. Now, tell me what else do you need?

Originally posted by krater


How come ancient macedonians? well, i'm a topix forum lover and one of the most visited forum is the macedonian, greek name issue. to my mind, a lot of plausible, thoughtprovoking thoughts arise there from the mk side. the greek participants fail to answer some delicate questions that have bearing to the matter in my opinion.


Can you give an example of these questions? Comparing the 2 theories, which one has more evidence? Is it beyond compare or what?


Originally posted by krater


 i enjoyed the alexander movie of o stone: as much as i would like that macedonians were greek seeing it it doesn't fit in my picture. Ouch
i just want to know the truth on that matter of enourmous historical value. Wink


Even though Oliver stones movie is based on the word of Diodorus and Calisthenes it is still a movie. it would be funny to bring the movie as an issue to historical matters.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 12:44
Originally posted by Yiannis

The only find we have of the language the common people used is the "Pella Katadesmos" a curse that was found in a Macedonian temple and it is in Greek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet
 


That was 11 years ago Yianni. By that time it was the only one. Now there are more and amongst them the Derveni papiry which is the oldest papyrus ever found in Europe.

http://www.derveni.org/

The papyrus is a perfect example since the Macedonian nobleman was schooled probably in Athens or by an Athenian tutor (prob Anexagoras). He tryes to write in Attic but he constrantly falls into Western Greek idioms.


Edited by Flipper - 28-Oct-2007 at 12:47


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 13:06
Originally posted by krater

Originally posted by akritas

krater what are the ancient Macedonians for you ?
 
i still an not 100% sureConfused


Tell us this 99% or 85% then.


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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 00:07
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by krater


 
You mention curetes and leleges (aeolians). i looked in wikipedia and found they're closely connected-leleges are of doric stock as are the curetes. i'm still not convinced they shared the common lifestyle with the ''other'' greek, which would mean they were a separate genealogy entity.


I did not mention curetes and leleges...Those were anyway not Dorians. The Dorians didn't share common lifestyle with all Greeks, but with other Dorians and other minor tribes that are clearly attested Hellenes. Now, can you tell me what is not Greek in the Dorians or generally in the western speaking dialect tribes? Their language which is the biggest language group of Greek together with Attic? Their religion, when the oldest pantheon temple was in their land? Their cellebrations? Their architecture? Their speeches? Can you give some examples on the Dorians and their time?

Originally posted by krater


you say they were isolated. why? i mean, there were no natural boundaries: the phenicians sailed the seas but they still knew they were from today's Lebanon, right?Confused


You obviously don't know the geography of the area. You have mount olympus and the pindus chain between north&west and south&east. In modern times, before the modern Egnatia road was built it took 7 hours from Thessaloniki to Ioannina (124 miles). 50 years ago, the trip by train from Athens to Thessaloniki (312 miles) was 19 hours due to the mountainous passages it had to pass, although the biggest part of the trip is plain. Do I need to say more?


Originally posted by krater


 
they worshiped hercules: i dont know if that means they were greek afterall: i would like to know if the prehistory indoeuropeans had a god figure who'd equall hercules. and some would argue that by means of worshipping hecules they wanted to distinguish themselves from the non-warlike people from the south-the greeks.


Cause they believed they descended from him. I mentioned it just for the record. Compare them to the Romans that adopted the same religion. What is the difference between the Romans and the Macedonians on religion? Can you tell me what you know about the Pantheon that makes you draw conclutions?
 
Originally posted by krater


as for the theatre, i dont suppose there might have been use of macedonian actors or guesting acting troop?


Why?  Do you suggest they were incapable of acting? That is a poor argument. Generally, wherever macedonians appear on panhellenic acts, they appear to speak Doric. Actors that are possing as non Greeks in an act use imaginary funny phrases and speak malformed Greek.

Originally posted by krater



yes but how can we take the olympics into a serious account if there was money ie. bribe involved: to my mind, alexander I was a monarch, determined macedonian (we know his dorian stock) and probably wealther than any of the athenians.Confused



a) Can you prove there was bribing to enter the contest? Besides, Alexander was questioned when arrived. He had to make a public speech. Did he managed to bribe the Hellenodikai while he was making the speech? What was he? A magician?

b) They were not wealther at that time at all. Athens and Corynth was by far the richest. Besides, Athens was not the one to decide for everyone. Remember that the olympics had participants from hundreds of places. Why do you focus on Athens?
 
Originally posted by krater


as for the art/architecture/sun i'm not sure-americans on capitol hill eg. are using the historicism architechture: are they romans? also the italian military uses rooster's feathers as decoration, although the rooster is ''a trademark'' of the gaules.Confused


Poor argument since you compare a timeframe that is huge. After how many years did the Americans decided to build the those? Are all houses in the US of Greek/Roman architecture? And even the Romans brough Greek architecturers to decorate Rome. Do you have a similar account for Macedonia?

Originally posted by krater


maybe they're were hellenized: that would explain for their choice of Hercules. Shame we don't know how the macedonian masses spoke (we dont know how the norman masses spoke either, for that matter).Confused


a) Noone has so far being able to proove they were Hellenized. Just in theory. Can you proove how they got suddenly Hellenized?

b) How much evidence is needed to justify what the masses spoke? Aren't thousand of inscriptions enough? There were women i Macedonia called Hellas, Hellen etc. Do you know many people calling their children after a foreign countrys name (as you suggest foreign)? Besides, you have the linguist community coining the native language as IEGB two years ago and giving it an ISO. Now, tell me what else do you need?

Originally posted by krater


How come ancient macedonians? well, i'm a topix forum lover and one of the most visited forum is the macedonian, greek name issue. to my mind, a lot of plausible, thoughtprovoking thoughts arise there from the mk side. the greek participants fail to answer some delicate questions that have bearing to the matter in my opinion.


Can you give an example of these questions? Comparing the 2 theories, which one has more evidence? Is it beyond compare or what?


Originally posted by krater


 i enjoyed the alexander movie of o stone: as much as i would like that macedonians were greek seeing it it doesn't fit in my picture. Ouch
i just want to know the truth on that matter of enourmous historical value. Wink


Even though Oliver stones movie is based on the word of Diodorus and Calisthenes it is still a movie. it would be funny to bring the movie as an issue to historical matters.
 
i dont know, it's common sense to say this is that based on people's lifestyle: the today's nations are based on their culture&lifestyle-mentality...
 
as for the language: it's too early to say if the mk lng was greek&if it was was, as such, spoken by the masses...
as for the religion, it could, to my mind, be observed the other way around: THE GREEKS ACCEPTED THE RELIGION FROM THE DORIANS: we know the notion of zeus is indoeuropean and stands for the hunter-people, as opposed to the ''mother/earth'' godess; the doric ''molecule'' came in greece, met the previous ''substratum'' there, gave it its religion, etc...
 
yes, i didnt mean to point at the ''arduous geology'' of the gr/mk border, but at the fact that if gr/mk were ''the same'' (obviously, i mean, they shared the same religion, but is IT enough for them to have been greek?)...so how is it they differed so much if they visited the same oracles, shared ''the same'' (primitive) customs (which, by definition, have their origin in religion)...lack of conntact can't change the same people so much...moreover they shared the common basis of life-the religion...
 
you're right i've ''travelled through time'' lol. i should go no further then the early (post Roman) gothic italy being under the great cultural influence of byzantinum, right...
 
i think the main reason for the greek considering the macedonians greek is the common religion of ''the couple'', but religion is a poor nations' determinator, in my opinion (hebrews, eg)...
 
as to the female names, i think ''hellen'' was a sign of the ''respectable''-civilized, gentle and cultivated world south of macedonia: just as some of the names within the germanic people near ''Rome''...
 
well, from ''topix'' the most striking would be the so called: 3rd philippic slave lies'': how come Demosthenes could have lied about Philip ii. and mk slaves? i mean the both peoples did trade-they knew each other. how can it be possible that not even the same religion codes werent enough to ''equal'' them? whatsmore-greek in Athens KNEW what the greek enemies were saying about the greek slaves, were all the greek slaves not good then. remember, all the greeks met alexander at chaeronea based on ''all those lies''...I MEAN, COMMON SENSE-HOW CAN IT BE?!
 
so ALEX couldnt have cried the movie's ''famous'' ''for the glory of greece'', then?
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 00:23
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by krater

 
You mention curetes and leleges (aeolians). i looked in wikipedia and found they're closely connected-leleges are of doric stock
 
Leleges are supposivelly pre-Hellenic populations, such as the elusive "Pelasgian. They were not of Doric descent.
Aeolians were not Leleges.
 
 
Originally posted by krater

you say they were isolated. why? i mean, there were no natural boundaries
  
 
Roads were practically non-existrend, as we know them today, in ancient Greece. Most were merelly paths or dirt roads with limited accesibility and ability to transport large quantities of goods. That is why most of the communication was done by ships and the reason most successful cities possesed harbors. So most agricicultural communities were isolated and the rugged terrain of Greece was a factor.
 
 
 
Originally posted by krater

they worshiped hercules: i dont know if that means they were greek afterall: i would like to know if the prehistory indoeuropeans had a god figure who'd equall hercules. and some would argue that by means of worshipping hecules they wanted to distinguish themselves from the non-warlike people from the south-the greeks.
  
Hercules was worshiped throughtout Greece, Ionians, Dorians and Aeolians alike. One of the most important celebrations in the Greek world was held in Athens and another in Arcadia
 
Originally posted by krater

as for the theatre, i dont suppose there might have been use of macedonian actors or guesting acting troop?
  
Usually the plays and actors came from cities like Athens or Corinth.
 
Originally posted by krater

yes but how can we take the olympics into a serious account if there was money ie. bribe involved: to my mind, alexander I was a monarch, determined macedonian (we know his dorian stock) and probably wealther than any of the athenians.Confused
  You can never really be sure of anything, but we also have no accounts for the contrary. You are entering conspiracy theory arguments.
 
 
 
Originally posted by krater

Shame we don't know how the macedonian masses spoke (we dont know how the norman masses spoke either, for that matter).
 
We have records that suggest that Macedonian was a Dorian dialect. SOme loan words from Thracian and Frygian exist only to prove the above fact. All official epigraphy is in Greek. The only find we have of the language the common people used is the "Pella Katadesmos" a curse that was found in a Macedonian temple and it is in Greek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet
 
 
why pre-hellenic?
 
Aeolians were dorian?
 
i'm still not convinced by ''the rough terrain''...werent there mk pilgrimages to greece-wasnt the people making contacts, there shouldve been a greater sense of common sense with the mks from the gr side...
 
so the olympics are no valid tool for ''the greekness of the macedons?
 
the intruiging/mystique pella catadesmosClap...
but it involves religion again, doesnt it, sorry, still doubt...Unhappy 
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  Quote krater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 00:25
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by krater

Originally posted by akritas

krater what are the ancient Macedonians for you ?
 
i still an not 100% sureConfused


Tell us this 99% or 85% then.
 
alas, the roads of truth are dangerous, still am waiting for the answers...Unhappy
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