Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Arab and spanish

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 7>
Author
Ikki View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Guanarteme

Joined: 31-Dec-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1378
  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Arab and spanish
    Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 19:33
Ups i forget it, the entire argument of these crazy men fall at the moment that we can see that the invasion or the activities of arab Hispania are accounted by persons of that time as Venerable Bede, Etelbaldo of Mercia and specially the anonymous chronicle of the Mozarab (754) and too the arab-byzantine chronicle of 741.

The Mozarabic Chronicle (which i have in spanish) is never analized by our "friends".

About the coins: according with any sources the first coins are most in latin althought with arabs coins in 712, then there are many in latin-arab and finally ten years after the invasion only in arab. The only coins that i have seen carefully are from X century, totally arabs. This too destroy the theorie of our friend at the moment that we have a leadership of arabs before the XII century that he say.

Of course we have to the supporters of this theories deniying the accounts of the main arabs chronicles of the IX century about the invasion and the arribal of Ummayads etc, why?


Their thesis a totally unscientific, plagued of half trues, lies and omisions.


And please no more the evil argument of Iberia (Caucasus)-Iberia (Pennsula), specially about the germanics invaders are hilarant.
Back to Top
Ikki View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Guanarteme

Joined: 31-Dec-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1378
  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 19:39
Originally posted by konstantinius

I'm not particularly pro-Arab either but History is History and I won't allow falsifications if I can help it. Please help, how do I post my pics?


I'm not very sure about what do you want to say but as you or another guy said before, the only that we need is to see any book about arab Spain, and we will see a huge arab-islamic-hispanic civilization; anyone who have read about this can't have doubts.

Man, our friend worldhistory argument include that the goths never come here, because we are confusing with the Caucasus LOL Yes? And who are the warriors that defeat the romans in Adrianopolis, went to the West, sacked Rome, take south Gallie and then conquered Hispania from there (not Iberia by this time)?
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 20:32
Pyxis of al-Mughira made for the khalifal family AH 357 (968 AD)




Edited by konstantinius - 20-Oct-2006 at 20:33
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 20:41
The mihrab (indicating the direction of prayer) at the great Mosque in Cordoba. The building of the Great Mosque was initiated in 795 AD.


" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 20:47
The Courtyard of Lions, Alhambra Palace. This section was built by Yusuf I.
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
Ikki View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Guanarteme

Joined: 31-Dec-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1378
  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 20:49
Clap
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 20:51
Visigothic script from Smaragdus's On the Rule of St. Benedict, end of 9th c.


" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 20:56
On the left: Visigothic gold coin modelled after the Byzantine solidus with a "portrait" (left side) of King Wamba (672-680) and a Byzantine motif (right side) of cross on steps.

On the right: interior of the sanctuary at the Great Mosque of Cordoba.


" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 21:01
On the left: carved ivory box made for Almoqueira, prince of Cordoba, 967 AD.

On the top right: detail from veil in silk and gold bearing inscription with the name of Hisham II, 967-1009 AD. It is known as "Hisham's veil".
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 21:07
On the top right: marble trough with inscription refering to al-Mansur. It is dated 987-8.




Edited by konstantinius - 22-Oct-2006 at 08:06
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 21:12
Leaf from a Koran, 1000 AD.
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 21:24
Apologies for the multiple posts but I couldn't type after each picture and had to repost.
Anyway, it should be clear that there were both a Muslim presence in Spain prior to the 12th. c. and a Visigothic presence before that.
So, "worldhistory", if you're still out there, what's your version of Spanish history 300-900 AD?

This is why I'm going into archaeology, by the way. So i can grab revisionist charlatans like "worldhistory" by the ankles, turn them upside down, and shake hard untill all the petty change comes tingling to the floor.


Edited by konstantinius - 21-Oct-2006 at 06:49
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
Aktufe View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 05-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Aktufe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 23:17
Great pictures konstantinius!
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 01:38
Yes! Great pictures Konstantinius!
 
I don't know how someone can denies the Visigothic and Arabic past of Spain. Is like forgotting it Spain was Iberian, Celt, German, Jew and Gypsy as well.
 
The german part is easily seen in the warrior society of the reconquest of Spain, in its medioeval knights, castles, the terminology of war (Bandera, Bandido, Guerra, etc) and even in the physical aspects of many Northern Spaniards, Julio Iglesias included.
 
The Arab part not only impregnated the language (Spanish) and in Andalucian music, but is present in the architecture of Spain and the americas. Including in names like "Omar" (mine) and in such strange words like "Ojala", which means "I hope Allah do it", and which survived the Inquisition. And also in the physical aspect of some Southern Spaniards, Antonio Banderas included.
 
Omar Vega-Martinez, alias Pinguin
 
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 06:50
Cheers!
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
Worldhistory View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

suspended

Joined: 12-Oct-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 23:50
Originally posted by ok ge

Those nomadic Arabs were building new cities since the 8th century.
 
Of course they werent, they just took over existing cities and allowed the original citizens of those cities to continue with their ongoing culture. Like the Mongols, Saracen Arabs were nomadic and rural peoples without a stone building culture.

 

Arabic claims of being builders of cities mainly derives from them being overlords of genuine city building cultures like the Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians, Mesopotamians, Byzantines, Greeks, and Egyptians.

 

Nevertheless this is not the main point of the topic so Im not going to pursue it.



Edited by Worldhistory - 01-Nov-2006 at 23:51
Back to Top
Worldhistory View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

suspended

Joined: 12-Oct-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 23:54
Originally posted by konstantinius

Who ever said in this discussion that there were no cities in Spain prior to the arrival of the Arabs? Are you mad? Is this what you're on about, some kind of anti-Arab trip? You keep going on making things up that were never said.
 

Im certainly not anti-Arab. Youre just not used to discussing a topic with someone who is genuinely well informed on the topic of peninsula history. This is why you constantly resort to intimidating anyone with a different view.

 
Originally posted by konstantinius


As for the evidence that you ask, go to your local library and pick up any book on medieval Spain; you will find information you never imagined before. On my end, I'll try and post photos of the coins, albeit my lackof a scanner. I've seen  the book in the library here in SF; the document I have not personally seen and my information comes from  David Nicolle and Angus McBride's  "El Cid and the Reconquista, 1050-1492", part of Osprey's Men-At-Arms series, if it's any concern to you.  Unlike you,  I am not dillusional and don't have any reason to doubt the validity of their information.
 

So you aim to prove fantasies by providing more fantasies? Its no wonder you know absolutely nothing about genuine history. If you call a modern book written by English authors with a set anti-Catholic agenda, primary source then youre deluding yourself.

 

Quoting English historians on the topic of Spanish history would be like quoting a book on WWII Germany which was written by a Jew.

 

How about you read what Arabic and Persian historians recorded about Al-Andalus or is this too much to ask?

 
 
Originally posted by konstantinius

So, what's your version--short--of Spanish history between, say,  300-900  AD?
 

Its not my version; its whats actually recorded in the unedited and unaltered primary text documents.

Back to Top
Worldhistory View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

suspended

Joined: 12-Oct-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 23:58
Originally posted by pinguin

Indeed! Spain had one native born civilization, Tarsis or Tartessos. Afterwards Spain was a colony of Cartago, then of Rome, and it was a Visigothic state when the Muslims invaded. Muslims captured a civilization that has already all its cities build! Muslims just brough more tech and invested in public works and in water infrastructure for agriculture.
 
This is Tarsis, or Tartessos, the Iberian and Native civilization of Spain, that is contemporarty to the kingdom of King Solomon, and shows in the Bible
 
 

I think Spain as a civilization and a nation has been and continues to be envied around the world so lesser peoples like to invent stories to suit their fantasies.

 

Once again you people resort only to second hand edited information without quoting any primary sources. 

 

Youre just going back to more fantasies to prove a fantasy. Your realm is the world of child like fantasies and never documented historical facts.

 

Its no wonder thats all you can really do, you really cant quote a primary source document because it either runs counter to the self-serving fantasies you propagate or no such primary document exists in the first place.

 

Hence you live in the realm of fantasy and merely deceive others. Not only are you misledyou mislead.

 

The issue is that fanatics will go to any length to mix what is European history with their own Asiatic history. Again, the ancient Celtic city of Tartessos in Spain is conveniently being rebadged as Tarsis, a city in Turkey known as Tarsus, which is mentioned in one of the books of the Asiatic bible and so the fantasy circus rolls on from one child to another.

 

Ive spoken already about rebadging.

 

One doesnt need to mention Tartessos to find established stone cities in Spain since its well known from many sources such as Caesar, Strabo, Ptolemy and Pliny the Elder that Spain had many large and well established cities hundreds of years before any Arab incursion into Europe.

 

The claim that the Arabs introduced public works, science or agriculture to Spain is of course just more self-serving fantasies being piled up on top of other fantasies.

 
Back to Top
Worldhistory View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

suspended

Joined: 12-Oct-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:00
Originally posted by Ikki

Men, he is following the old theories of Olage then supported by a severals historians. The evolution of the groups that support their theories are very curious.

1. The ideas of Olage was of extreme right, deniying the arrival of arabs and giving to Al-Andalus a native origin plus relations with middle easterns.

2. The moderate arabs adopt the theory. Why? Moderates specially from western countries, never from the East and not islamic extremist (these last two groups are pride of the arab conquerors); because this concept of relation between Iberia and the Islam was a model for a pacific islamization of the West, perfectly accord with the mentality of the western muslims.

3. Extreme Left: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The extreme left has an special relation with the Islam, of sympathy of course; here we have too an antysistem feeling: deny the "official" history, include here the traditional Al-Andalus history, it is an exercise of self reinforcing.

4. Andalucian Nationalist: there is a small nationalist movement in Andaluca. They try to take for they the entire legate of Al-Andalus and other cultures of the iberian history; but of course, they don't want support an ancient invasion of the underdeveloped arabs. They was a great culture and took the better of the Middle East...


Here we have one of those guys.

 

The Mongols conquered large civilizations from China to Persia but it doesnt mean they themselves were an advanced or a great culture at least not in my definition of great culture for they lived in tents and didnt even have a writing system of their own. Their writing system was adopted from one of the cultures they conquered.

 

Its obvious you havent being paying attention. If you had, you wouldve noted that I dont deny the arrival of Arabs in Spain at all since primary source documents do evidence such an event but this event pertains from the 12th -13th century onwards in what was the province of Granada.

 

What I deny is the fantasy of the 711 AD invasion and subsequent conquest of Spain because there is not one single genuine primary source document that records this event. That is, without rebadging the name of Spain into Al-Andalus - a small island in the Mediterranean. Even then, theres not one genuine primary document to back up the 711 AD event the way its being propagated by anti-catholic English authors.

 
 
Back to Top
Worldhistory View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

suspended

Joined: 12-Oct-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:01
Originally posted by konstantinius

I'm not particularly pro-Arab either but History is History and I won't allow falsifications if I can help it. Please help, how do I post my pics?
 

Its people like you who have never read a primary document whos falsifying European history to suit your own personal fantasies.

 

For all your talk I still havent seen you quote one single primary source.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 7>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.070 seconds.