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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Arab and spanish
    Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:08
Originally posted by Ikki

Ups i forget it, the entire argument of these crazy men fall at the moment that we can see that the invasion or the activities of arab Hispania are accounted by persons of that time as Venerable Bede, Etelbaldo of Mercia and specially the anonymous chronicle of the Mozarab (754) and too the arab-byzantine chronicle of 741.
 
 

Youre a perfect example of what Im talking about, child like and gullible. Tell you what, how about you write here exactly what the Venerable Bede says about the supposed Arabic invasion of Spain. Please provide the name of the text, the book and chapter number so any reader in this forum can verify for him or herself.

 
 
Originally posted by Ikki


The Mozarabic Chronicle (which i have in spanish) is never analized by our "friends".

About the coins: according with any sources the first coins are most in latin althought with arabs coins in 712, then there are many in latin-arab and finally ten years after the invasion only in arab. The only coins that i have seen carefully are from X century, totally arabs. This too destroy the theorie of our friend at the moment that we have a leadership of arabs before the XII century that he say.
 

But its just hot air you provide, you provide not one single piece of hard evidence. Once again all you people do is refer to a self-serving fantasy to back up a self-serving fantasy.

 

You say youve destroyed my theory merely by only providing your own theories. Thats just laughable and its actually pathetic.

 

You all have been infected and live in the realm of fantasy because you talk about these primary sources and what they say but you lot never actually put here in black and white so we can verify it for ourselves in due course.


Originally posted by Ikki

Of course we have to the supporters of this theories deniying the accounts of the main arabs chronicles of the IX century about the invasion and the arribal of Ummayads etc, why?
 
Main Arab chronicles about Spain? Where are they? No one has ever seen them. Are they just chronicles of Armenian-Iberian history rebadged as Spanish-Iberian? Do these chronicles mention Al-andalus...show us examples of such chronicles.
 
Originally posted by Ikki

Their thesis a totally unscientific, plagued of half trues, lies and omisions.
 

We say the same thing about you lot.


Originally posted by Ikki


And please no more the evil argument of Iberia (Caucasus)-Iberia (Pennsula), specially about the germanics invaders are hilarant.
 
So someone with a different view is branded as evil. Needless to say this is the mind of a child we have here because anyone with a different view is classified as being evil. Its of course these very same people who easily subscribe to any self-serving fantasy.

 

I think your lips just move (or in this case your fingers just type) but theres nothing inside - more zombie than human.

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:12
Originally posted by konstantinius

Pyxis of al-Mughira made for the khalifal family AH 357 (968 AD)


 

I appreciate your effort for scanning and posting these pages so it saddens me that I must now show you the errors of your ways in such a public manner.

 
Nevertheless, bar ping-pong boy and evil boy, we're all grown ups here and we must procede.
 

This page of the book talks about events in the 11th century and provides no primary source documents for what it says. Is this what you call primary evidence of the 711 AD invasion and subsequent conquest of Spain?

 
How does a text talking about the 11th century prove the 711 AD event?
 
Youre merely quoting fantasies to prove fantasies.
 
 
 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:13
Originally posted by konstantinius

The mihrab (indicating the direction of prayer) at the great Mosque in Cordoba. The building of the Great Mosque was initiated in 795 AD.


 

Once again, this page only talks about 12th century Spain which I dont contest. I still fail to see how this page attempts to prove the 711 AD event. The English anti-Catholic author expresses his view on the Mosque without providing any primary source documentation. He also neglects to mention that the building prior being rebadged a Mosque was in fact already a Spanish temple of worship prior any Arab invasion.

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:14
Originally posted by konstantinius

The Courtyard of Lions, Alhambra Palace. This section was built by Yusuf I.
 

This picture proves nothing at all. Its merely rebadging existing Spanish buildings into Arabic sounding names.

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:22
Originally posted by konstantinius

Visigothic script from Smaragdus's On the Rule of St. Benedict, end of 9th c.


 

Once again I fail to see what this picture is supposed to prove. The author talks about 11th century events without documenting any primary sources and provides a partial picture of a 9th century text whose author writes about a text written in the 6th century Visigothic script without any translation.

 

What does the text On the Rule of St. Benedict by Smaragdus actually say? No one knows because that picture fails to show a translation.

 
St. Benedict was a Frenchman and wrote about events in Southern France. is this another example of rebadging where events of southern France are now conviniently placed as happening in Spain?
 

Does it say when the Arabs landed in Spain? No, it says nothing of the sort. The only reason it seems to be there in the book is to show an example of 9th century Visigothic writing.

 

Now, anyone with an IQ higher than a pin pong ball will realize that the author is inter-mingling non-Spanish history with Spanish history and hence the deception.

 

The text On the Rule of St. Benedict by Smaragdus from what has been shown above has nothing to do with Spain. However, by intermingling a photo of an unrelated Visigothic script with text mentioning Spain the author is able to deceive the reader into thinking one thing has to do with the other. Well, they dont!

 

Its called deception by association. A bit like a fan (the word derives from fanatic) having a photo taken with a movie star and then showing it around to his friends saying they dated for several years and had an intimate relation.

 
The author fails to mention that the text On the Rule of St. Benedict by Smaragdus has nothing whatsoever to do with Spain! The text does not come from Spain, it was not found in Spain, it does not mention Spain and St. Benedict was not from Spain and never went to Spain.

 

It's a 9th century manuscript mentioning 6th century events in France. How can this manuscript shed light about the fairytale 711 AD invasion of Spain

 

That text showing Visigothic writing has nothing to do with Spain. Yet, you ask why in that case did the author place that photo in the book.

 

The answer is simple to deceive gullible little children like yourselves.

 

LOL

 

 

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:28
Originally posted by konstantinius

On the left: Visigothic gold coin modelled after the Byzantine solidus with a "portrait" (left side) of King Wamba (672-680) and a Byzantine motif (right side) of cross on steps.

On the right: interior of the sanctuary at the Great Mosque of Cordoba.


 

This is a very good example of non-Spanish history being mixed with Spanish history. Note how the coin shown is actually Byzantine and not Spanish. The mosque is of course just a Spanish temple being rebadged as an Islamic Mosque and thats about it.

 

He clearly goes down the same self-serving track by misinterpreting the history Armenian Iberia with Spanish Iberia. The events mentioned in this page relate to the region of Syria and the middle-east and Ive already posted this very same example in an earlier post in this thread. The author then propagates the same fantasies you lot have been infected with and of course, like yourselves, he never provides any primary source document for critical analysis.

 

The authors final paragraph on this page is of course his personal theory which is not founded in any genuine document. Hence the circus rolls on.

 

By the way, anyone with any knowledge of Islamic mosques will tell you they dont use such colours in the interior - further proof the building is of native Spanish architecture being rebadged as something Arabic.

 

I ask for the Arabic supposedly coin minted in Spain and I get shown a coin which has Byzantium written all over it.

 

Don't tell me, another rebadge right...byzantine actually means Spain now.

 

Interesting how there's no one coin with the word Al-andalus on it but yet the fantasy of minted Andalusian coins continues.

 

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:29
Originally posted by konstantinius

On the left: carved ivory box made for Almoqueira, prince of Cordoba, 967 AD.

On the top right: detail from veil in silk and gold bearing inscription with the name of Hisham II, 967-1009 AD. It is known as "Hisham's veil".
 

Once again, just fantasies without a shred of primary source evidence. Yawn.

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:31
Originally posted by konstantinius

On the left: carved ivory box made for Almoqueira, prince of Cordoba, 967 AD.

On the top right: detail from veil in silk and gold bearing inscription with the name of Hisham II, 967-1009 AD. It is known as "Hisham's veil".
 

What does the inscription say? Does it say when the Arabs invaded Spain? No of course notthat would be too simple.

 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:33
Originally posted by konstantinius

Leaf from a Koran, 1000 AD.
 

This is the best of the lot, a picture of a leaf of the Koran. This is supposed to prove what exactly? Does the Koran say when Spain was invaded? No, it doesnt.

 

Its amazing how this picture alone is supposed to prove the supposed 711 AD Arab invasion of Spain.

 
Incredibly absurd.
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:39
Originally posted by konstantinius

Apologies for the multiple posts but I couldn't type after each picture and had to repost. Anyway, it should be clear that there were both a Muslim presence in Spain prior to the 12th. c. and a Visigothic presence before that.
 
 

Really, I saw not such proof at all. All I saw was rebadging of Spanish Churches as Mosques and other similar deceptions.

 

Its no wonder you all live in the realm of fantasy if this is the best you can come up with.

 
I asked for the coin minted in Corbova in the 800s and he shows me a Byzantium coin.
 
I asked for this 8th century Ebro document and he sends me picture of a leaf of a Koran from the year 1000.
 
Originally posted by konstantinius


This is why I'm going into archaeology, by the way. So i can grab revisionist charlatans like "worldhistory" by the ankles, turn them upside down, and shake hard untill all the petty change comes tingling to the floor.
 

But youre the one thats revising history and thats why you resort to archaeology and a picture of the Koran because archaeology can be easily manipulated by anyone with a self-serving fantasy.

 

Someone finds a cloth made out of silk in ancient Britain and thats itBritain must have been in ancient times ruled by the Chinese.

All I asked for to start with was this coin minted in Spain and this Ebro document.

Instead we got bombarded by pictures from a book written by an Englishman and the picture of a leaf from the Koran.
 
 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:47
Originally posted by pinguin

Yes! Great pictures Konstantinius!
 
I don't know how someone can denies the Visigothic and Arabic past of Spain. Is like forgotting it Spain was Iberian, Celt, German, Jew and Gypsy as well.
 
Now youre bringing Jews into the topic. Would this be another example of inter-mingling separate histories to suit your own personal fantasies?

 

What else are you selling today?

 
Originally posted by pinguin

The german part is easily seen in the warrior society of the reconquest of Spain, in its medioeval knights, castles, the terminology of war (Bandera, Bandido, Guerra, etc) and even in the physical aspects of many Northern Spaniards, Julio Iglesias included.
 

Simply incredible, Germans were now in Spain? So medieval knights and castles are of German origin now? Interesting considering the Germans were forest dwellers who lived in huts made out of wood. Incredible, the words Bandera, Bandido, Guerra, are now supposed to be German and Juilo Inglesis is now supposed to look like a German.

 

Well, thats that then, you of course have cracked it.

 
Originally posted by pinguin

The Arab part not only impregnated the language (Spanish) and in Andalucian music, but is present in the architecture of Spain and the americas. Including in names like "Omar" (mine) and in such strange words like "Ojala", which means "I hope Allah do it", and which survived the Inquisition. And also in the physical aspect of some Southern Spaniards, Antonio Banderas included.
 

Amazing, you people really are delusional. It seems every word in any language has an Arabic meaning at the end of the day and anyone and anything originates from Arabic.

 

Really, the word Ojala can mean I hope Allah do it? I fail to see where the word Allah is in Ojala, or is this another example of Asiatic rebadging? Its no wonder you lot think the Arabs invaded Spain in 711 AD, it seems one single word in any language can mean so much in the Arabic language.

 

Come on, Adolph Hitler was actually Arabic too right? Im sure his name means something in Arabic, if not, you can get something close right?

 

Oh I dont know, let me have a go at this game, let me see, Hitler = Hittite, thats it, that proves it everyone! Germans and Austrians are actually Arabs.

 

Antonio Banderas looks nothing like Osama Bin Laden but then again if whole nations, buildings and cities can be rebadged into being something called Arabic then I suppose people will also be rebadged as being Arabic.

 

Youre selling so much childish nonsense it begs belief.

 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:57

So at the end of all the hot air, we readers still fail to see one single coin saying Spain on it or that mysterious Ebro river land document of the 800s.

 

Thats all I really asked for but gee wiz, why am I not surprised?

 

Instead we were bombarded with crap and shoved a picture of a leaf of the Koran down our throats.

 

Interesting how you lot are running away from attempting to provide one single primary source document but merely talk about them and ask us all to take your word for it.

 
1)      What did the Venerable Bede say about Spain?
 
2)      Where is this Ebro document?
 
3)      Where is the document of this Etelbaldo of Mercia? Is he a cartoon character like Batman and Spiderman?
 
4)      Whats this Mozarabic Chronicle? Why dont you scan your book in the totality and place it somewhere so we can all access it.

 

At the end of the day, we've failed to see this minted coin of Spain and this Ebro document or any real historical quote of an 8th century Arab invasion of Spain.

 

The reason is simple...it does not exist.

 

I keenly await this Ebro document,this coin with "Spain" on it, this quote from Bede about Spain and copies of these other chronicles which supposedly mention an Arab presence in 8th century Spain.

 

I challenge you lot to provide these, and only these, historical texts and quotes.

 

 

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 01:03
Originally posted by konstantinius

On the left: Visigothic gold coin modelled after the Byzantine solidus with a "portrait" (left side) of King Wamba (672-680) and a Byzantine motif (right side) of cross on steps.

On the right: interior of the sanctuary at the Great Mosque of Cordoba.


 
The coin shown above is stated as being dated to the years 672-680. Now how in the hell is this an example of Arabic presence in Spain which supposedly only started 30 years later in 711 AD.
 
Would this happen to be another example of rebadging?
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 08:39
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Originally posted by pinguin

Yes! Great pictures Konstantinius!
 
I don't know how someone can denies the Visigothic and Arabic past of Spain. Is like forgotting it Spain was Iberian, Celt, German, Jew and Gypsy as well.
 
Now youre bringing Jews into the topic. Would this be another example of inter-mingling separate histories to suit your own personal fantasies?

 

What else are you selling today?

 
 
So you ignore the presence of Jews in Spain? That's a pitty. Jews lived in spain from Roman times to the XVI century. They are called Sephardites, and half of them were forced to assimilate to Christianity in the XV century, and the rest immigrated across the world. Sephardites are a very numerous groups of Jews.
 
If you don't know it is not my fault. Study!
 
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Originally posted by pinguin

The german part is easily seen in the warrior society of the reconquest of Spain, in its medioeval knights, castles, the terminology of war (Bandera, Bandido, Guerra, etc) and even in the physical aspects of many Northern Spaniards, Julio Iglesias included.
 

Simply incredible, Germans were now in Spain? So medieval knights and castles are of German origin now? Interesting considering the Germans were forest dwellers who lived in huts made out of wood. Incredible, the words Bandera, Bandido, Guerra, are now supposed to be German and Juilo Inglesis is now supposed to look like a German.

 
You are quite ignorant, it seem. Aren't you?
Read about the Visigoths. Read the Middle Ages history of Spain, and find what is the origin of words like "Bandera", "Banda" and "Bandido" in Spanish, and names like Rodrigo and Bernardo.
Look at how many blonds exist in Spain and Latin America. Find out about the times Germany and Dutchland were part of the Spanish Empire. See how many Germans live in Latin America.
 
Meanwhile, Shut up.
 
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Originally posted by pinguin

The Arab part not only impregnated the language (Spanish) and in Andalucian music, but is present in the architecture of Spain and the americas. Including in names like "Omar" (mine) and in such strange words like "Ojala", which means "I hope Allah do it", and which survived the Inquisition. And also in the physical aspect of some Southern Spaniards, Antonio Banderas included.
 

Amazing, you people really are delusional. It seems every word in any language has an Arabic meaning at the end of the day and anyone and anything originates from Arabic.

 

Really, the word Ojala can mean I hope Allah do it? I fail to see where the word Allah is in Ojala, or is this another example of Asiatic rebadging? Its no wonder you lot think the Arabs invaded Spain in 711 AD, it seems one single word in any language can mean so much in the Arabic language.

 
Antonio Banderas looks nothing like Osama Bin Laden but then again if whole nations, buildings and cities can be rebadged into being something called Arabic then I suppose people will also be rebadged as being Arabic.

 

Youre selling so much childish nonsense it begs belief.

 
You need a lot of study to do. If you really believe Spain is like that boring Northern Europe populated by the descendents of barbarians you are wrong. Spain has many roots and the Arab root is important.
 
Now for your racist classifications, Osama has Black Ancestry. He does not look "Moor" or "Arab" but Black like Michael Jackson (before surgery).
 
Any Moor (Moroccan Berber, Arab) look like Antonio Banderas.
 
Jesus! Go back to high school, please! LOLLOL
 
Pinguin
 


Edited by pinguin - 02-Nov-2006 at 08:44
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 21:54
I'm still waiting for this Arabic coin minted with the words "Spain" from the 800s.
 
Instead all I've seen is a Byzantium coin which has nothing to do with Spain dated to 680 AD, 30 years prior this fantasy Arabic invasion in 711 AD.
 
I'm still waiting for this Arabic Ebro document from the 8th century. Still haven't seen anything.
 
Still waiting for this quote from Bede which is supposed to mention Arabs in Spain. Still haven't seen anything.
 
The so-called 8th century Arabic invasion of modern Spain is a complete fabrication without any genuine proof.
 
The propagators of this fantasy rely on the majority of people being illiterate in the topic of history and gullible in nature.
 
The idea of an 8th century Arabic invasion of modern Spain is so full of crap it belongs to the realm of cartoon fiction for children - something English authors excell in.
 
The problem with you people is you're unable to differentiate between when an author is expressing his own views and when he's actually expressing passages from genuine historical primary sources.
 
 


Edited by Worldhistory - 02-Nov-2006 at 22:25
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 22:21
Originally posted by Worldhistory

I'm still waiting for this Arabic coin minted with the words "Spain" from the 800s.
 -... 
The idea of an 8th century Arabic invasion of modern Spain is so full of crap it belongs to the realm of cartoon fiction for children - something English authors excell in.
 
 
Take a look and be quite. I am only showing the bilingual coins of Al-Andalus. I don't know if you can but I do read "Spain" in the coins.
 
These two bilingual coins are from the times of the Governors (First century after the invasion)
 
 
This is from the Caliphat of Cordoba. Not bilingual though. Perhaps you speak Arab. But notice the Roman numbers.
 
 
 
This is from the Almoravid period.
 
 
Granada coin
 
 
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 22:43
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Worldhistory

I'm still waiting for this Arabic coin minted with the words "Spain" from the 800s.
 -... 
The idea of an 8th century Arabic invasion of modern Spain is so full of crap it belongs to the realm of cartoon fiction for children - something English authors excell in.
 
 
Take a look and be quite. I am only showing the bilingual coins of Al-Andalus. I don't know if you can but I do read "Spain" in the coins.
 
These two bilingual coins are from the times of the Governors (First century after the invasion)
 
 
This is from the Caliphat of Cordoba. Not bilingual though. Perhaps you speak Arab. But notice the Roman numbers.
 
 
 
This is from the Almoravid period.
 
 
Granada coin
 
  
Pinguin
 
 
So where do they say "Spain" on them? Or even Al-andalus? I see no dates on them either.
 
It's just another example of rebadging like the Byzantine coin shown above. These coins you're showing don't say either "Spain", "Al-Andalus" or even "Corduba" and they're not even dated.
 
You're just rebadging them by saying such and such coin is from the "Caliphat of Cordoba" but the coin itself says nothing of the sort.
 
You say "notice the Roman numerals" but I see none. All I see are coins with Islamic writing on them and they haven't even been translated from the original language.
 
The coins are just being rebadged as being Andalusian coins but the coins themselves say no such thing.
 
The last picture are coins dating from the 14th century. Once again you people resort to post 12th-13th century events and items to justify the baseless theory of an 8th century fantasy invasion.
 
Why are we being bombarded with either post 12th-13th items or items that have no dates or the word "Spain" on them to start with?
 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 22:50
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Take a look and be quite. I am only showing the bilingual coins of Al-Andalus. I don't know if you can but I do read "Spain" in the coins.
 
These two bilingual coins are from the times of the Governors (First century after the invasion)
 
 
 
But you're the one saying these coins are from the 8th century and that they are from Al-andalus while the coins say nothing of the sort.
 
There are thousands of such coins all over the Asian continent and one can rebadge them in any shape or form because they're not dated.
 
 
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 23:42
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Originally posted by konstantinius

Pyxis of al-Mughira made for the khalifal family AH 357 (968 AD)


 

I appreciate your effort for scanning and posting these pages so it saddens me that I must now show you the errors of your ways in such a public manner.

 
Nevertheless, bar ping-pong boy and evil boy, we're all grown ups here and we must procede.
 

This page of the book talks about events in the 11th century and provides no primary source documents for what it says. Is this what you call primary evidence of the 711 AD invasion and subsequent conquest of Spain?

 
How does a text talking about the 11th century prove the 711 AD event?
 
Youre merely quoting fantasies to prove fantasies.
 
 
 


It's not the 11th century. 967 AD is the end of the tenth.


Edited by konstantinius - 02-Nov-2006 at 23:52
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 23:46
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Originally posted by konstantinius

The mihrab (indicating the direction of prayer) at the great Mosque in Cordoba. The building of the Great Mosque was initiated in 795 AD.


 

Once again, this page only talks about 12th century Spain which I dont contest. I still fail to see how this page attempts to prove the 711 AD event. The English anti-Catholic author expresses his view on the Mosque without providing any primary source documentation. He also neglects to mention that the building prior being rebadged a Mosque was in fact already a Spanish temple of worship prior any Arab invasion.




????? My post is not refering to the text but to the photo. 795 AD is not the 12th c., it's the end of the 8th. Oh, and that's pretty close to 711, by the way.


Edited by konstantinius - 02-Nov-2006 at 23:51
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