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    Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 12:45

To get the mood of the Christians knights that forced the Moors out of Spain, I believe nothing reflects it better than that Santiago Matamoros (Saint James, the Killer of the Moors). Legend says Santiago appeared in the battlefields fighting against the Moors and turning the balance in benefit of the Christians. He was the military saint of the Reconquest and also of the Conquistadors of the Americas, and there are quite a lot of Latin American cities called in his name: Santiago.

 
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 01:03
Good painting. I like the Spanish, for what they achieved.
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  Quote Tipu Sultan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 13:10
Good painting. I like the Spanish, for what they achieved.

i understand your point.
Smile
i think we should watch the documentary when the moors ruled in europe they deal with these kinds of paintings,etc.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 13:20
Curiously enough, you can still find stamps with the figure of Santiago Matamoros in the religious articles sales of any Catholic country, particularly in Latin America Wink
 
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 00:10
Of course this is an idealized picture. 11th-12th c. caballeros looked nothing like that.  
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 14:10
I suspect, is a barroque view.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 17:30
That's barroque of the 18th century. I am not sure if it is Latin American Barroque or Spaniard.
 
Here it is another one. The image of Santiago Matamoros (Saint James Killer of Moors) is quite common in Catholic iconography.
 
In fact Santiago de Compostela is dedicated to this saint (or myth, whatever)
 
(Notice that the "Moors" are not Black Africans Big smile like Afrocentrists pretend. In fact they were Arabs, Berbers but mainly Iberians)
 
 
 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 01:33

Interesting topic this but can anyone show here some quotes from primary source documents about the so-called 711 AD invasion of Spain.

There's a lot of talk but no hard genuine proof.
 
There's a school of thought saying that such an invasion never happened in the 8th century but it was much later in the 12th century and that historians have confused an Arab invasion of Iberia (modern day Armenia) with Spanish Iberia.
 
The same goes with the so-called Gothic presence in Spain, it seems the Gothic presence in Spain (Iberia) was actually in Iberia (Armenia) right in the region where the Gothic peoples originated from.
 
 
 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 01:35
The Moors were Iberians, that's nonsense.
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 01:39
Originally posted by pinguin

Well, I believe this map explains more easily the big failure of the Almoravides. Most of the territories were back in Christian hands after theirs government. 1492 was the fall of Granada, but by then Al-Andalus was just a shadow of its former glory.
 
Pinguin
 
But the thing is no primary sources back up such claims made by these pictures. They're just guesses and estimates made by modern historians (usually non-Europeans).
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 13:16
Originally posted by Worldhistory

The Moors were Iberians, that's nonsense.
 
"Moors" is the Christian Spaniards called the Muslims. The Spanish Muslims called Christians "Romani" (Romans).
 
Yes, the Christian Spaniards were as much Ancient Romans as the Muslims Spaniards were North Africans LOLLOLLOL
 
Actually, the only "scientists" that believes the Moors of Spain were black people are Ivan Van Sertima and Clyde Winters. The same time believe Shang chineses were blacks, too. I guess there is an agenda in there Big smileBig smile
 
The truth is the numbers of Berbers in Spain was quite minor. Al Andalus was an Arab society with a multinational Muslim minority in control. Most of the people was Iberian. Most of those Iberians converted to Islam.
 
Pinguin.
 
 
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 18:52
Oh my God, i suspect which books ant theories you are reading Worldhistory, please becareful and take information from other places.
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 23:29
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Worldhistory

The Moors were Iberians, that's nonsense.
 
"Moors" is the Christian Spaniards called the Muslims. The Spanish Muslims called Christians "Romani" (Romans).
 
Yes, the Christian Spaniards were as much Ancient Romans as the Muslims Spaniards were North Africans LOLLOLLOL
 
Actually, the only "scientists" that believes the Moors of Spain were black people are Ivan Van Sertima and Clyde Winters. The same time believe Shang chineses were blacks, too. I guess there is an agenda in there Big smileBig smile
 
The truth is the numbers of Berbers in Spain was quite minor. Al Andalus was an Arab society with a multinational Muslim minority in control. Most of the people was Iberian. Most of those Iberians converted to Islam.
 
Pinguin. 
 
You're all like gullible little children being fooled by common circus clowns.
 
First of all, the Spaniards didn't call Muslims "Moors", Muslims were called Musulmanos. "Moors" isn't even a term original to Spain but introduced much later by historians. The term Moors originates from the word Maur-itania.
 
Ancient manuscripts which talk about the 730 AD Arab invasions of Southern Italy and Southern France refer to the invaders as Saracens but never Moors.
 
Secondly, the rebadging of Spain as something called Al-Andalus is simply an example of unbridled fantasy. Al-Andalus was an island in the Mediterranean, modern day Sardinia.
 
It was the islands of southern Italy that were invaded by Saracens in the 8th century and not Spain.
 
There was never any Gothic presence in Spain but only in Gallia (France and Italy)
 
An invasion of a portion of Spain did occur but this was much later in the 11-12th centuries and this was in the region of Grenada.
 
Historians have been inter-miggling seperate historical events and rebadging it into one convinient fantasy.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 23:56
Originally posted by Worldhistory

 
You're all like gullible little children being fooled by common circus clowns.
 
First of all, the Spaniards didn't call Muslims "Moors", Muslims were called Musulmanos. "Moors" isn't even a term original to Spain but introduced much later by historians. The term Moors originates from the word Maur-itania.
 
My dear friend, you are absolutely wrong. I am a Spanish speaker and I do have an inside view to Spanish language and culture that allow me to say with property that the word MORO (Moors) was used to name ANY MUSLIM in Spain by the PEOPLE, not by the historians.
 
The term Mauritanea was refered in the ancient times to the territory that today is known as the Maghreb, but not to the Subsaharan country that today is called Mauritania. So a Mauro was a Maghrebian (Morrocan, Algerian, Tunisian). Now, MORO it is usually applied IN SPANISH as a synonim of MOROCCAN or ALGERIAN.
 
The English term MOOR and the ancient term MAURO, are not exacly the same that the term MORO in Spain. So when you read "The Moors of Spain" please be kind to translate "The Muslims of Spain".
 
 
 
Ancient manuscripts which talk about the 730 AD Arab invasions of Southern Italy and Southern France refer to the invaders as Saracens but never Moors.
 
  
 
It may be so. Actually the invaders of Spain were Arabs and Berbers of North Africa, Caucasians both.
 
 
  
Secondly, the rebadging of Spain as something called Al-Andalus is simply an example of unbridled fantasy. Al-Andalus was an island in the Mediterranean, modern day Sardinia.
 
 
There you are ABSOLUTELY wrong. Al-Andalus is the name Arabs gave to Spain. It comes from Vandalus, the name of the german tribe that was on power before the Muslim invasion. Even more, today the Spanish province of Andalucia mantain the name Al-Andalus alive.
 
 
  
It was the islands of southern Italy that were invaded by Saracens in the 8th century and not Spain.
 
 
There was a parallel invasion to Sicily but they were in Spain at the same time.
 
 
   
There was never any Gothic presence in Spain but only in Gallia (France and Italy)
 
 
Were did you get that?
 
 That's really ridiculous and reveals lack of knowledge. Don't you know about Visigothic Spain? Don't you know there are lots of words of German origin in Spain? Don't you know there are many blond Spaniards as well?
 
 
An invasion of a portion of Spain did occur but this was much later in the 11-12th centuries and this was in the region of Grenada.
 
  
 
Absolutely upside down. That invasion of the Almoravides it was only some military campains where Africans troops were sent to Iberia to STOP Al-Andalus to fall under Christian hands. They have absolutely NO IMPACT into the historical events. Moreover, the Christians recovered almost all Spain for themselves at those times. Only the kingdom of Granada remained in Muslim hands for some centuries more.
 
 
[QUOTE]
Historians have been inter-miggling seperate historical events and rebadging it into one convinient fantasy.
 
Absolutely agree. You should go back to history books, then. And please avoid Afrocentric scholars that promote fantasies.
 
Pinguin


Edited by pinguin - 16-Oct-2006 at 00:01
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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 08:58
Originally posted by ok ge

While some (minority) Muslim states restricted non-Muslim activities under their domain,  Muslim spain allowed even for Christians to build new churches. Also, the common behavior of the Muslim army is to well treat the new subjects to comfort their fears, win their support, and decrease chances of uprising when the country is freshly conqeusted.
 
Some of the texts I have read contradict this. Particularly the ones concerning Almanor.
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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 09:00
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

Nearly all of Spain and Portugal came under Arab control. Their rule was relatively peaceful and uncontested. 
 
In reality, Visigothic Iberia could be seen as internally more peaceful. From the very beginning of Andalusia's history there was some sort of clash, beginning with the conflicts waged between the berbers and the arabs.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 09:36
Originally posted by Degredado

Originally posted by ok ge

While some (minority) Muslim states restricted non-Muslim activities under their domain,  Muslim spain allowed even for Christians to build new churches. Also, the common behavior of the Muslim army is to well treat the new subjects to comfort their fears, win their support, and decrease chances of uprising when the country is freshly conqeusted.
 
Some of the texts I have read contradict this. Particularly the ones concerning Almanor.
 
Well, it depends of which Moors (Muslims). There are certain accounts at the beginning of the conquest that speak of brutality. In general the Moors of the period between the 8th and 12th centuries were relatively tolerant and kinds with its peoples.
 
However, after the 12th there was a spread of Muslim fundamentalism that hurt the relations with Christians. Even some troops from Africa were sent to Spain to punish Christians. That attitude backfired and Christians realized the only solution for Spain is to get rid of the Muslim states. By the end of the 13th century only Granada was at the hands of Muslims, and the rest of Spain was free.
 
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 23:07
Originally posted by Nader75

what did arab with the spanish people when entered to the spanish, as I heard they put the bells of churches around the necks of priests and made them to walk in the street, is this true ?
 
"Muslim Spain developed into one of the great states of Europe during the early Middle Ages. Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived together in relative harmony and a rich culture rose out of these multiple influences. There was a flowering of the arts, architecture, and learning. By 1000, however, Muslim Spain had divided into warring factions. This civil war allowed the tiny Christian states of Castile and Aragon to begin the slow re-conquest of the peninsula (the Reconquista), completed finally in 1492."
 
Sources:
Encarta (medium reliability)
Wiki (medium-low reliability)
 


Edited by Hellios - 16-Oct-2006 at 23:08
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 03:12
Originally posted by pinguin

My dear friend, you are absolutely wrong. I am a Spanish speaker and I do have an inside view to Spanish language and culture that allow me to say with property that the word MORO (Moors) was used to name ANY MUSLIM in Spain by the PEOPLE, not by the historians.
 
I don't think you are a Spanish speaker at all while your assumed "inside view" may very well be as full of, for the lack of a better word, sh*t as...well, your insides?
 
Some Spaniards may indeed refer to Muslims as Moors but many Spaniards also use the terms "Arabe" and "Muculmanos" to describe any Muslim.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

The English term MOOR and the ancient term MAURO, are not exacly the same that the term MORO in Spain. So when you read "The Moors of Spain" please be kind to translate "The Muslims of Spain".
 
This is of course an example of the literary corruption that attempts to deceive the reader because "Muslim" in Spanish is not Moor but "Muculmano".
 
Now rebadging one word for another may suit your own personal fantasies but it's nevertheless delusional. The Spanish term Moro has a different meaning to that of the Spanish term Muculmano.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

It may be so. Actually the invaders of Spain were Arabs and Berbers of North Africa, Caucasians both.
 
Oh don't worry, it is so but that doesn't suit you does it? You of course are still living in fantasy land even though the circus has long gone home.
 
You of course fall back to talking in vague terms without providing any details of which invasions, when in time such invasions occurred and where such invasions took place.
 
But of course you're unable to communicate in any detail at all because your fantasies could then be easily proven baseless and unfounded. So you simply deal in the currency that is vague talk.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

There you are ABSOLUTELY wrong. Al-Andalus is the name Arabs gave to Spain. It comes from Vandalus, the name of the german tribe that was on power before the Muslim invasion. Even more, today the Spanish province of Andalucia mantain the name Al-Andalus alive.
 
 
Actually, like many children at the circus, you're the one that's being fooled. The only reason you believe Al-Andalus is the name given to Spain is because it's what you want to believe and it's what has been forced fed to you by the circus organizers.
 
The Al-Andalus written about by the Saracens was a island, Spain is not an island but of course little details like these are not mentioned. If such important details were to be mentioned, the children might dare to make sense of it all and God forbid even ask questions.
 
There is a province in Southern Spain popularly mapped as Andalusia but it's not the original name and just because it's popular it doesn't mean it's correct. 
 
It's foreigners and the historically illiterate which are behind the incorrect labelling of Spanish territory and Spanish history in general. It's reached a stage where Spaniards themselves are so infected with the fantasies of foreigner origin that they themselves not only believe it but even worse, propagate it.
 
Just because it's popular it doesn't mean it's correct or accurate.
 
While the English speaking world uses the name Germany to describe the European nation north-east of France, the Spaniards, Portuguese and French call it Allemania and the inhabitants Allemani.
 
The point is, the title Al-Andalus was coined not by the Spaniards, the Saracens, Arabs or Moors but by some idiot, usually English, historian who popularized the fantasy that Al-Andalus was Spain instead of Sardinia and Corsica which the Saracens actually invaded in the 720s AD.
 
Spain has always been known as Spain, Hispania, Iberia, Celiberia and never has a Spanish province ever been called anything like Al-Andalus.
 
There is not one ancient historical document ever calling a province of Spain as something remotely close to the term Al-Andalus.
 
The Vandal and Visigothic links are of course similar fantasies where amature historians have mistaken Gothic and Vandal presence in the region of Armenia (also known as Iberia) and translated such events as happening in the region of Spain.
 
Further more, they've intangled geniune events of Vandal, Gothic and Arab incursions in Iberia (Armenia) which did occur in the 8th century with unrelated events that occured in Iberia (Spain) much later in the 12-13th century.
 
Hence the absurdity of Gothic, Vandal presence in Spain. Where original texts record Gothic incursions in a province of Gaul near the Danube river in modern day Romania and Hungary the corrupt and child like English translations reads Gothic and Vandal incursions in Galicia, Spain where they've translated Galatia to be Spanish Galicia when infact it's a Gallic province by the Danube river that should be mentioned.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

There was a parallel invasion to Sicily but they were in Spain at the same time.
 
There was never any invasion of southern Spain in 711 AD. It's just the invasion of the islands of Al-Andalus which was Sardinia and Corsica. From Corsica the Saracens (Arabs) landed by ship in Southern France where they were eventually met by Charlemagne in and around 730 AD.
 
By rebadging Spain as Al-Andalus, have the circus managers been able to fool children into thinking that all of Spain was conquered and that the Muslims reached all the way to southern France where they wre finally defeated by Charlemagne in 730 AD. We are then told that the muslims retreated back to Al-Andalus, where people think Al-Andalus means Spain, and lived happily ever after.
 
The truth is that the Saracen Arabs did invade southern France but, as documented, they arrived by ship a few years after having conquered Sardinia and Corsica - the true Al-Andalus.
 
The people which propagate the fantasy that Southern Spain was invaded in 711 AD and in 2 days the entire peninsula (mind you a peninsula larger than both the Italian and Greek peninsulas put together) was conquered source their information from the texts that actually refer to the Saracen invasion of the island of Al-Andalus (Sardinia) and their attempt to conquer southern France. 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

That's really ridiculous and reveals lack of knowledge. Don't you know about Visigothic Spain? Don't you know there are lots of words of German origin in Spain? Don't you know there are many blond Spaniards as well?
 
If you're not competent enough to see through the fairy tales of Al-Andalus being something called Spain then you're certainly not going to see through the fairy tales of something called Visigothic Spain.
 
I think you'll find more words in German being of Spanish origin since Spanish is Latin based and the Germans didn't even have a writing system.
 
Further more, it's only natural for there being a certain amount of blondism in the Spanish population since they're a Celtic people - Celtiberians.
 
Blondism is found in every Celtic nation from Portugal to Belgium and France. 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Moreover, the Christians recovered almost all Spain for themselves at those times. Only the kingdom of Granada remained in Muslim hands for some centuries more.
 
That's right, this invasion in the 12-13th AD century was defeated an only the portion of Granada (no more Al-Andalus eh?) remained as an Islamic province as a vassal to the Christian kings.
 
Because of the little impact of this genuine invasion in the 12-13th AD century have fairy tales been invented and historical facts distorted to create the fantasy of a 700 year Islamic rule over Spain.
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 03:14
Originally posted by Degredado

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

Nearly all of Spain and Portugal came under Arab control. Their rule was relatively peaceful and uncontested. 
 
In reality, Visigothic Iberia could be seen as internally more peaceful. From the very beginning of Andalusia's history there was some sort of clash, beginning with the conflicts waged between the berbers and the arabs.
 
 
Visigothic Spain is an invention. There never was any Gothic presence in the region of modern Spain.
 
The Gothic presence ocurred in Iberia - modern Armenia.
 
Besides, you Portuguese don't even understand your ancient Atlantian or Lusitanian history much less your 12-13th century history. You don't even understand your Celtic-Gallic history and how it is being hijacked by the Scots and Irish (a Scythian people pretending to be Celts).
 
Children, just children.
 
 


Edited by Worldhistory - 17-Oct-2006 at 03:24
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