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 Quote Reply
 Topic: Arab and spanishPosted: 18-Oct-2006 at 09:22 |
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Of course it does not exist. You seem to be one of those English speaker fellows that believe in Spanish the words "Desperado" "Atalavista" and many other stupid translations actually exist
 What kind of Afrocentric cult do you follow? It seem I already know
 [
Pretty good description of yourself. You shouldn't deal with yourself such often.
Jesus! You really need an education, man.
Read:
Al-Andalus (Arabic: الأندلس) was the Arabic name given to those parts of the Iberian Peninsula governed by Muslims from 711 to 1492.[1] It refers to the Governorate, Emirate (ca 750-929) and Caliphate of Crdoba (929-1031) and its taifa successor kingdoms.
And read:
The Vandals were an East Germanic tribe that entered the late Roman Empire during the 5th century. The Vandals may have given their name to the region of Andalusia, which according to one of several theories of its etymology was originally Vandalusia (which would be the source of Al-Andalus - the Arabic name of Iberian Peninsula), in the south of present day Spain, where they temporarily settled before pushing on to Africa. Start from there
Pinguin
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Worldhistory
Knight 
suspended Joined: 12-Oct-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 80 |
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Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 01:34 |
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Of course the word exists, it's just written now days as "musulmn" where the letters "c" and "s" can be interchanged.
Type Muslim in the below Spanish-English site and you'll see the response.
By the way, you're pretty anal about the difference between the words "muculmano" and ""musulmn" but you're very agreeable to believe the word "Al-Andalus" is equal to the word "Spain".
This is so childish I'm not even going to respond. I'm dealing with someone with an IQ of a ping pong ball.
Gothic presence was in Iberia - modern day Armenia by the Black Sea.
"The emperor Valens, who respected the obligations of the treaty, and who was apprehensive of involving the East in a dangerous war, ventured, with slow and cautious measures, to support the Roman party in the kingdoms of Iberia and Armenia."
"The Euphrates was protected by the valor of Arintheus. A powerful army, under the command of Count Trajan, and of Vadomair, king of the Alemanni, fixed their camp on the confines of Armenia. But they were strictly enjoined not to commit the first hostilities, which might be understood as a breach of the treaty: and such was the implicit obedience of the Roman general, that they retreated, with exemplary patience, under a shower of Persian arrows till they had clearly acquired a just title to an honorable and legitimate victory. Yet these appearances of war insensibly subsided in a vain and tedious negotiation. The contending parties supported their claims by mutual reproaches of perfidy and ambition; and it should seem, that the original treaty was expressed in very obscure terms, since they were reduced to the necessity of making their inconclusive appeal to the partial testimony of the generals of the two nations, who had assisted at the negotiations. The invasion of the Goths and Huns which soon afterwards shook the foundations of the Roman empire"
The above is an example of Gemanic (Alemanni) presence in Iberia - Armenia. I'm not inventing it.
But this is the 12-13th century invasion not the 711 AD invasion of Al-Andalus the island in the Med.
The erroneous articles you've been reading have been intangling two separate events and rebadging it as one single event in the incorrect place.
I agree with this but this was the 12-13th century event and not the 711 AD event when the Saracens invaded an island (Sardinia) in the Med called Al-Andalus and a few years later invaded the province of Septemania in Southern France where they were defeated by Martel.
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Worldhistory
Knight
suspended Joined: 12-Oct-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 80 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 00:55 |
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But the 711 AD Saracen invasion was not in Spain. It was in Al-Andalus, an island in the Med (Sardinia) invaded by the Saracens.
Only modern historians have been rebadging the 711 AD event as happening in modern Spain.
Muslims did invade Iberia in the 8th century but it was Iberia - modern day Armenia, by the Black Sea.
The proponents of the 711 AD invasion of modern Spain have gone down the same erroneous track by thinking there was a Gothic presence in Iberia - Spain. There wasn't.
The Gothic presence in the 8th century Iberia was only in modern day Armenia by the Black Sea and not Spain.
It's very simple, historians have misinterpreted Black Sea Iberia with the Iberia - modern Spain.
Invasions of Iberia - modern day Spain only occured 300 years later in the 12th century.
The Roderick mentioned above has nothing to do with modern Spain. Translators have taken the liberty to place such events in Spain because they've mistaken "Iberia" in older texts as meaning Spain where in fact it meant Armenia by the Black Sea.
Some translators have read in the original document "Galatia" and translated this word into Galicia - a Spanish province where's infact it has nothing to do with Spain but everything to do with Gallic provinces near the Danube from where the Goths, Alemanni and even Arabs were attacking.
The Saracens in the 8th century invaded from the east near the Black sea Iberia and not from south in modern day Morroco.
There was even a region of modern Turkey called Galatia - province of Gaul. Look it up for yourselfs. The Saracen invasions of Eastern Europe during the 8th century are very well documented, it's just not as popular as the fairytales of an invasion of Spain in the 8th century.
Edited by Worldhistory - 18-Oct-2006 at 01:55 |
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:23 |
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I am a Spanish Speaker and that I understand what "Arabe" means (Arab) now for your "Muculmanos" the term es "Musulman" (singular) and "Musulmanes" (plural). The word "Muculmano" does not exist in Spanish, by the way the word "Desperado" is not Spanish either
Now, you are not going to teach ME what MORO means in Spanish. Means Moroccan, Maghrebian, Infidel, Muslim, light brown. That's what the famous word mean. Zidane and Kaddafi are Moors.
Do you believe Spanish is a poor language? Forget it. Sarraceno, Arabe, Musulman, Moreno, Moro, Mahometano, Morisco are all terms related with the topic but with slight different meanings.
Yes, you are right. Musulman (No muculmano, please, that sounds idiotic) has the meaning of follower of Allah. Moro, has the meaning of brown foreigner, and it was applied to all the Muslims that lived in Spain, particularly Berbers, but by extension to ANY MUSLIM.
Common, are you really going to believe THAT? Show your evidency please.
Where the HECK do you get that? Van Sertima? Van Danniken? Pseudo-history, no doubt.
Are you sure? That's absolutely false.
What an ignorange. Germanic tribes existed in Spain for a long time. Where do you think the word bandido came from? What kind of sect do you belong?
Oh Lord! You are really nuts.
All the North of Spain was Goth.
Yes, and Toledo, Granada, Cordoba never existed.
Yes. There is not a remain of the Muslims in Spain. Yeap. Sure-
Not only Celts. Germans also invaded Spain during the Middle Ages. That's recorderd.
That was not an actual invasion. The Muslims of Spain ask for help to theirs brother of North Africa because Al-Andalus was begining to fall down. Granada it was the last land of the Moors in Spain. The last part of Al-Andalus.
Pinguin
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Leonardo
General 
Joined: 13-Jan-2006 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 778 |
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 09:39 |
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Please, don't feed the troll
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Aktufe
Janissary 
Joined: 05-May-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 04:36 |
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If there was no invasion in 711, why did Tariq ibn-Ziyad mention Roderick, the last visigoth king of spain, in his address to his soldiers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_ibn-Ziyad ...and why dont you tone it down with the whole circus fantasy thing. We're here to discuss. Edited by Aktufe - 17-Oct-2006 at 04:37 |
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Worldhistory
Knight
suspended Joined: 12-Oct-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 80 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 03:14 |
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Visigothic Spain is an invention. There never was any Gothic presence in the region of modern Spain.
The Gothic presence ocurred in Iberia - modern Armenia.
Besides, you Portuguese don't even understand your ancient Atlantian or Lusitanian history much less your 12-13th century history. You don't even understand your Celtic-Gallic history and how it is being hijacked by the Scots and Irish (a Scythian people pretending to be Celts).
Children, just children.
Edited by Worldhistory - 17-Oct-2006 at 03:24 |
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Worldhistory
Knight
suspended Joined: 12-Oct-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 80 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 03:12 |
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I don't think you are a Spanish speaker at all while your assumed "inside view" may very well be as full of, for the lack of a better word, sh*t as...well, your insides?
Some Spaniards may indeed refer to Muslims as Moors but many Spaniards also use the terms "Arabe" and "Muculmanos" to describe any Muslim.
This is of course an example of the literary corruption that attempts to deceive the reader because "Muslim" in Spanish is not Moor but "Muculmano".
Now rebadging one word for another may suit your own personal fantasies but it's nevertheless delusional. The Spanish term Moro has a different meaning to that of the Spanish term Muculmano.
Oh don't worry, it is so but that doesn't suit you does it? You of course are still living in fantasy land even though the circus has long gone home.
You of course fall back to talking in vague terms without providing any details of which invasions, when in time such invasions occurred and where such invasions took place.
But of course you're unable to communicate in any detail at all because your fantasies could then be easily proven baseless and unfounded. So you simply deal in the currency that is vague talk.
Actually, like many children at the circus, you're the one that's being fooled. The only reason you believe Al-Andalus is the name given to Spain is because it's what you want to believe and it's what has been forced fed to you by the circus organizers.
The Al-Andalus written about by the Saracens was a island, Spain is not an island but of course little details like these are not mentioned. If such important details were to be mentioned, the children might dare to make sense of it all and God forbid even ask questions.
There is a province in Southern Spain popularly mapped as Andalusia but it's not the original name and just because it's popular it doesn't mean it's correct.
It's foreigners and the historically illiterate which are behind the incorrect labelling of Spanish territory and Spanish history in general. It's reached a stage where Spaniards themselves are so infected with the fantasies of foreigner origin that they themselves not only believe it but even worse, propagate it.
Just because it's popular it doesn't mean it's correct or accurate.
While the English speaking world uses the name Germany to describe the European nation north-east of France, the Spaniards, Portuguese and French call it Allemania and the inhabitants Allemani.
The point is, the title Al-Andalus was coined not by the Spaniards, the Saracens, Arabs or Moors but by some idiot, usually English, historian who popularized the fantasy that Al-Andalus was Spain instead of Sardinia and Corsica which the Saracens actually invaded in the 720s AD.
Spain has always been known as Spain, Hispania, Iberia, Celiberia and never has a Spanish province ever been called anything like Al-Andalus.
There is not one ancient historical document ever calling a province of Spain as something remotely close to the term Al-Andalus.
The Vandal and Visigothic links are of course similar fantasies where amature historians have mistaken Gothic and Vandal presence in the region of Armenia (also known as Iberia) and translated such events as happening in the region of Spain.
Further more, they've intangled geniune events of Vandal, Gothic and Arab incursions in Iberia (Armenia) which did occur in the 8th century with unrelated events that occured in Iberia (Spain) much later in the 12-13th century.
Hence the absurdity of Gothic, Vandal presence in Spain. Where original texts record Gothic incursions in a province of Gaul near the Danube river in modern day Romania and Hungary the corrupt and child like English translations reads Gothic and Vandal incursions in Galicia, Spain where they've translated Galatia to be Spanish Galicia when infact it's a Gallic province by the Danube river that should be mentioned.
There was never any invasion of southern Spain in 711 AD. It's just the invasion of the islands of Al-Andalus which was Sardinia and Corsica. From Corsica the Saracens (Arabs) landed by ship in Southern France where they were eventually met by Charlemagne in and around 730 AD.
By rebadging Spain as Al-Andalus, have the circus managers been able to fool children into thinking that all of Spain was conquered and that the Muslims reached all the way to southern France where they wre finally defeated by Charlemagne in 730 AD. We are then told that the muslims retreated back to Al-Andalus, where people think Al-Andalus means Spain, and lived happily ever after.
The truth is that the Saracen Arabs did invade southern France but, as documented, they arrived by ship a few years after having conquered Sardinia and Corsica - the true Al-Andalus.
The people which propagate the fantasy that Southern Spain was invaded in 711 AD and in 2 days the entire peninsula (mind you a peninsula larger than both the Italian and Greek peninsulas put together) was conquered source their information from the texts that actually refer to the Saracen invasion of the island of Al-Andalus (Sardinia) and their attempt to conquer southern France.
If you're not competent enough to see through the fairy tales of Al-Andalus being something called Spain then you're certainly not going to see through the fairy tales of something called Visigothic Spain.
I think you'll find more words in German being of Spanish origin since Spanish is Latin based and the Germans didn't even have a writing system.
Further more, it's only natural for there being a certain amount of blondism in the Spanish population since they're a Celtic people - Celtiberians.
Blondism is found in every Celtic nation from Portugal to Belgium and France.
That's right, this invasion in the 12-13th AD century was defeated an only the portion of Granada (no more Al-Andalus eh?) remained as an Islamic province as a vassal to the Christian kings.
Because of the little impact of this genuine invasion in the 12-13th AD century have fairy tales been invented and historical facts distorted to create the fantasy of a 700 year Islamic rule over Spain.
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Hellios
Arch Duke 
Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 23:07 |
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"Muslim Spain developed into one of the great states of Europe during the early Middle Ages. Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived together in relative harmony and a rich culture rose out of these multiple influences. There was a flowering of the arts, architecture, and learning. By 1000, however, Muslim Spain had divided into warring factions. This civil war allowed the tiny Christian states of Castile and Aragon to begin the slow re-conquest of the peninsula (the Reconquista), completed finally in 1492."
Sources:
Encarta (medium reliability)
Wiki (medium-low reliability)
Edited by Hellios - 16-Oct-2006 at 23:08 |
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 09:36 |
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Well, it depends of which Moors (Muslims). There are certain accounts at the beginning of the conquest that speak of brutality. In general the Moors of the period between the 8th and 12th centuries were relatively tolerant and kinds with its peoples.
However, after the 12th there was a spread of Muslim fundamentalism that hurt the relations with Christians. Even some troops from Africa were sent to Spain to punish Christians. That attitude backfired and Christians realized the only solution for Spain is to get rid of the Muslim states. By the end of the 13th century only Granada was at the hands of Muslims, and the rest of Spain was free.
Pinguin
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Degredado
Consul 
Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Portugal Online Status: Offline Posts: 366 |
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 09:00 |
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In reality, Visigothic Iberia could be seen as internally more peaceful. From the very beginning of Andalusia's history there was some sort of clash, beginning with the conflicts waged between the berbers and the arabs.
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Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas
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Degredado
Consul
Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Portugal Online Status: Offline Posts: 366 |
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 08:58 |
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Some of the texts I have read contradict this. Particularly the ones concerning Almanor.
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Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas
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Guests
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 23:56 |
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My dear friend, you are absolutely wrong. I am a Spanish speaker and I do have an inside view to Spanish language and culture that allow me to say with property that the word MORO (Moors) was used to name ANY MUSLIM in Spain by the PEOPLE, not by the historians.
The term Mauritanea was refered in the ancient times to the territory that today is known as the Maghreb, but not to the Subsaharan country that today is called Mauritania. So a Mauro was a Maghrebian (Morrocan, Algerian, Tunisian). Now, MORO it is usually applied IN SPANISH as a synonim of MOROCCAN or ALGERIAN.
The English term MOOR and the ancient term MAURO, are not exacly the same that the term MORO in Spain. So when you read "The Moors of Spain" please be kind to translate "The Muslims of Spain".
It may be so. Actually the invaders of Spain were Arabs and Berbers of North Africa, Caucasians both.
There you are ABSOLUTELY wrong. Al-Andalus is the name Arabs gave to Spain. It comes from Vandalus, the name of the german tribe that was on power before the Muslim invasion. Even more, today the Spanish province of Andalucia mantain the name Al-Andalus alive.
Were did you get that?
That's really ridiculous and reveals lack of knowledge. Don't you know about Visigothic Spain? Don't you know there are lots of words of German origin in Spain? Don't you know there are many blond Spaniards as well?
Absolutely upside down. That invasion of the Almoravides it was only some military campains where Africans troops were sent to Iberia to STOP Al-Andalus to fall under Christian hands. They have absolutely NO IMPACT into the historical events. Moreover, the Christians recovered almost all Spain for themselves at those times. Only the kingdom of Granada remained in Muslim hands for some centuries more.
Absolutely agree. You should go back to history books, then. And please avoid Afrocentric scholars that promote fantasies.
Pinguin Edited by pinguin - 16-Oct-2006 at 00:01 |
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Worldhistory
Knight
suspended Joined: 12-Oct-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 80 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 23:29 |
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You're all like gullible little children being fooled by common circus clowns.
First of all, the Spaniards didn't call Muslims "Moors", Muslims were called Musulmanos. "Moors" isn't even a term original to Spain but introduced much later by historians. The term Moors originates from the word Maur-itania.
Ancient manuscripts which talk about the 730 AD Arab invasions of Southern Italy and Southern France refer to the invaders as Saracens but never Moors.
Secondly, the rebadging of Spain as something called Al-Andalus is simply an example of unbridled fantasy. Al-Andalus was an island in the Mediterranean, modern day Sardinia.
It was the islands of southern Italy that were invaded by Saracens in the 8th century and not Spain.
There was never any Gothic presence in Spain but only in Gallia (France and Italy)
An invasion of a portion of Spain did occur but this was much later in the 11-12th centuries and this was in the region of Grenada.
Historians have been inter-miggling seperate historical events and rebadging it into one convinient fantasy.
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Ikki
Chieftain 
Guanarteme Joined: 31-Dec-2004 Location: Spain Online Status: Offline Posts: 1378 |
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Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 18:52 |
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Oh my God, i suspect which books ant theories you are reading Worldhistory, please becareful and take information from other places.
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Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 13:16 |
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"Moors" is the Christian Spaniards called the Muslims. The Spanish Muslims called Christians "Romani" (Romans).
Yes, the Christian Spaniards were as much Ancient Romans as the Muslims Spaniards were North Africans
 Actually, the only "scientists" that believes the Moors of Spain were black people are Ivan Van Sertima and Clyde Winters. The same time believe Shang chineses were blacks, too. I guess there is an agenda in there
 The truth is the numbers of Berbers in Spain was quite minor. Al Andalus was an Arab society with a multinational Muslim minority in control. Most of the people was Iberian. Most of those Iberians converted to Islam.
Pinguin.
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Worldhistory
Knight
suspended Joined: 12-Oct-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 80 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 01:39 |
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But the thing is no primary sources back up such claims made by these pictures. They're just guesses and estimates made by modern historians (usually non-Europeans).
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Worldhistory
Knight
suspended Joined: 12-Oct-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 80 |
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Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 01:35 |
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The Moors were Iberians, that's nonsense.
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Worldhistory
Knight
suspended Joined: 12-Oct-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 80 |
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Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 01:33 |
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Interesting topic this but can anyone show here some quotes from primary source documents about the so-called 711 AD invasion of Spain. There's a lot of talk but no hard genuine proof.
There's a school of thought saying that such an invasion never happened in the 8th century but it was much later in the 12th century and that historians have confused an Arab invasion of Iberia (modern day Armenia) with Spanish Iberia.
The same goes with the so-called Gothic presence in Spain, it seems the Gothic presence in Spain (Iberia) was actually in Iberia (Armenia) right in the region where the Gothic peoples originated from.
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 17:30 |
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That's barroque of the 18th century. I am not sure if it is Latin American Barroque or Spaniard.
Here it is another one. The image of Santiago Matamoros (Saint James Killer of Moors) is quite common in Catholic iconography.
In fact Santiago de Compostela is dedicated to this saint (or myth, whatever)
(Notice that the "Moors" are not Black Africans
like Afrocentrists pretend. In fact they were Arabs, Berbers but mainly Iberians) Pinguin
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