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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Arab and spanish
    Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:28
Originally posted by konstantinius

On the left: Visigothic gold coin modelled after the Byzantine solidus with a "portrait" (left side) of King Wamba (672-680) and a Byzantine motif (right side) of cross on steps.

On the right: interior of the sanctuary at the Great Mosque of Cordoba.


 

This is a very good example of non-Spanish history being mixed with Spanish history. Note how the coin shown is actually Byzantine and not Spanish. The mosque is of course just a Spanish temple being rebadged as an Islamic Mosque and thats about it.

 

He clearly goes down the same self-serving track by misinterpreting the history Armenian Iberia with Spanish Iberia. The events mentioned in this page relate to the region of Syria and the middle-east and Ive already posted this very same example in an earlier post in this thread. The author then propagates the same fantasies you lot have been infected with and of course, like yourselves, he never provides any primary source document for critical analysis.

 

The authors final paragraph on this page is of course his personal theory which is not founded in any genuine document. Hence the circus rolls on.

 

By the way, anyone with any knowledge of Islamic mosques will tell you they dont use such colours in the interior - further proof the building is of native Spanish architecture being rebadged as something Arabic.

 

I ask for the Arabic supposedly coin minted in Spain and I get shown a coin which has Byzantium written all over it.

 

Don't tell me, another rebadge right...byzantine actually means Spain now.

 

Interesting how there's no one coin with the word Al-andalus on it but yet the fantasy of minted Andalusian coins continues.

 

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:22
Originally posted by konstantinius

Visigothic script from Smaragdus's On the Rule of St. Benedict, end of 9th c.


 

Once again I fail to see what this picture is supposed to prove. The author talks about 11th century events without documenting any primary sources and provides a partial picture of a 9th century text whose author writes about a text written in the 6th century Visigothic script without any translation.

 

What does the text On the Rule of St. Benedict by Smaragdus actually say? No one knows because that picture fails to show a translation.

 
St. Benedict was a Frenchman and wrote about events in Southern France. is this another example of rebadging where events of southern France are now conviniently placed as happening in Spain?
 

Does it say when the Arabs landed in Spain? No, it says nothing of the sort. The only reason it seems to be there in the book is to show an example of 9th century Visigothic writing.

 

Now, anyone with an IQ higher than a pin pong ball will realize that the author is inter-mingling non-Spanish history with Spanish history and hence the deception.

 

The text On the Rule of St. Benedict by Smaragdus from what has been shown above has nothing to do with Spain. However, by intermingling a photo of an unrelated Visigothic script with text mentioning Spain the author is able to deceive the reader into thinking one thing has to do with the other. Well, they dont!

 

Its called deception by association. A bit like a fan (the word derives from fanatic) having a photo taken with a movie star and then showing it around to his friends saying they dated for several years and had an intimate relation.

 
The author fails to mention that the text On the Rule of St. Benedict by Smaragdus has nothing whatsoever to do with Spain! The text does not come from Spain, it was not found in Spain, it does not mention Spain and St. Benedict was not from Spain and never went to Spain.

 

It's a 9th century manuscript mentioning 6th century events in France. How can this manuscript shed light about the fairytale 711 AD invasion of Spain

 

That text showing Visigothic writing has nothing to do with Spain. Yet, you ask why in that case did the author place that photo in the book.

 

The answer is simple to deceive gullible little children like yourselves.

 

LOL

 

 

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:14
Originally posted by konstantinius

The Courtyard of Lions, Alhambra Palace. This section was built by Yusuf I.
 

This picture proves nothing at all. Its merely rebadging existing Spanish buildings into Arabic sounding names.

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:13
Originally posted by konstantinius

The mihrab (indicating the direction of prayer) at the great Mosque in Cordoba. The building of the Great Mosque was initiated in 795 AD.


 

Once again, this page only talks about 12th century Spain which I dont contest. I still fail to see how this page attempts to prove the 711 AD event. The English anti-Catholic author expresses his view on the Mosque without providing any primary source documentation. He also neglects to mention that the building prior being rebadged a Mosque was in fact already a Spanish temple of worship prior any Arab invasion.

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:12
Originally posted by konstantinius

Pyxis of al-Mughira made for the khalifal family AH 357 (968 AD)


 

I appreciate your effort for scanning and posting these pages so it saddens me that I must now show you the errors of your ways in such a public manner.

 
Nevertheless, bar ping-pong boy and evil boy, we're all grown ups here and we must procede.
 

This page of the book talks about events in the 11th century and provides no primary source documents for what it says. Is this what you call primary evidence of the 711 AD invasion and subsequent conquest of Spain?

 
How does a text talking about the 11th century prove the 711 AD event?
 
Youre merely quoting fantasies to prove fantasies.
 
 
 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:08
Originally posted by Ikki

Ups i forget it, the entire argument of these crazy men fall at the moment that we can see that the invasion or the activities of arab Hispania are accounted by persons of that time as Venerable Bede, Etelbaldo of Mercia and specially the anonymous chronicle of the Mozarab (754) and too the arab-byzantine chronicle of 741.
 
 

Youre a perfect example of what Im talking about, child like and gullible. Tell you what, how about you write here exactly what the Venerable Bede says about the supposed Arabic invasion of Spain. Please provide the name of the text, the book and chapter number so any reader in this forum can verify for him or herself.

 
 
Originally posted by Ikki


The Mozarabic Chronicle (which i have in spanish) is never analized by our "friends".

About the coins: according with any sources the first coins are most in latin althought with arabs coins in 712, then there are many in latin-arab and finally ten years after the invasion only in arab. The only coins that i have seen carefully are from X century, totally arabs. This too destroy the theorie of our friend at the moment that we have a leadership of arabs before the XII century that he say.
 

But its just hot air you provide, you provide not one single piece of hard evidence. Once again all you people do is refer to a self-serving fantasy to back up a self-serving fantasy.

 

You say youve destroyed my theory merely by only providing your own theories. Thats just laughable and its actually pathetic.

 

You all have been infected and live in the realm of fantasy because you talk about these primary sources and what they say but you lot never actually put here in black and white so we can verify it for ourselves in due course.


Originally posted by Ikki

Of course we have to the supporters of this theories deniying the accounts of the main arabs chronicles of the IX century about the invasion and the arribal of Ummayads etc, why?
 
Main Arab chronicles about Spain? Where are they? No one has ever seen them. Are they just chronicles of Armenian-Iberian history rebadged as Spanish-Iberian? Do these chronicles mention Al-andalus...show us examples of such chronicles.
 
Originally posted by Ikki

Their thesis a totally unscientific, plagued of half trues, lies and omisions.
 

We say the same thing about you lot.


Originally posted by Ikki


And please no more the evil argument of Iberia (Caucasus)-Iberia (Pennsula), specially about the germanics invaders are hilarant.
 
So someone with a different view is branded as evil. Needless to say this is the mind of a child we have here because anyone with a different view is classified as being evil. Its of course these very same people who easily subscribe to any self-serving fantasy.

 

I think your lips just move (or in this case your fingers just type) but theres nothing inside - more zombie than human.

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:01
Originally posted by konstantinius

I'm not particularly pro-Arab either but History is History and I won't allow falsifications if I can help it. Please help, how do I post my pics?
 

Its people like you who have never read a primary document whos falsifying European history to suit your own personal fantasies.

 

For all your talk I still havent seen you quote one single primary source.

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 00:00
Originally posted by Ikki

Men, he is following the old theories of Olage then supported by a severals historians. The evolution of the groups that support their theories are very curious.

1. The ideas of Olage was of extreme right, deniying the arrival of arabs and giving to Al-Andalus a native origin plus relations with middle easterns.

2. The moderate arabs adopt the theory. Why? Moderates specially from western countries, never from the East and not islamic extremist (these last two groups are pride of the arab conquerors); because this concept of relation between Iberia and the Islam was a model for a pacific islamization of the West, perfectly accord with the mentality of the western muslims.

3. Extreme Left: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The extreme left has an special relation with the Islam, of sympathy of course; here we have too an antysistem feeling: deny the "official" history, include here the traditional Al-Andalus history, it is an exercise of self reinforcing.

4. Andalucian Nationalist: there is a small nationalist movement in Andaluca. They try to take for they the entire legate of Al-Andalus and other cultures of the iberian history; but of course, they don't want support an ancient invasion of the underdeveloped arabs. They was a great culture and took the better of the Middle East...


Here we have one of those guys.

 

The Mongols conquered large civilizations from China to Persia but it doesnt mean they themselves were an advanced or a great culture at least not in my definition of great culture for they lived in tents and didnt even have a writing system of their own. Their writing system was adopted from one of the cultures they conquered.

 

Its obvious you havent being paying attention. If you had, you wouldve noted that I dont deny the arrival of Arabs in Spain at all since primary source documents do evidence such an event but this event pertains from the 12th -13th century onwards in what was the province of Granada.

 

What I deny is the fantasy of the 711 AD invasion and subsequent conquest of Spain because there is not one single genuine primary source document that records this event. That is, without rebadging the name of Spain into Al-Andalus - a small island in the Mediterranean. Even then, theres not one genuine primary document to back up the 711 AD event the way its being propagated by anti-catholic English authors.

 
 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 23:58
Originally posted by pinguin

Indeed! Spain had one native born civilization, Tarsis or Tartessos. Afterwards Spain was a colony of Cartago, then of Rome, and it was a Visigothic state when the Muslims invaded. Muslims captured a civilization that has already all its cities build! Muslims just brough more tech and invested in public works and in water infrastructure for agriculture.
 
This is Tarsis, or Tartessos, the Iberian and Native civilization of Spain, that is contemporarty to the kingdom of King Solomon, and shows in the Bible
 
 

I think Spain as a civilization and a nation has been and continues to be envied around the world so lesser peoples like to invent stories to suit their fantasies.

 

Once again you people resort only to second hand edited information without quoting any primary sources. 

 

Youre just going back to more fantasies to prove a fantasy. Your realm is the world of child like fantasies and never documented historical facts.

 

Its no wonder thats all you can really do, you really cant quote a primary source document because it either runs counter to the self-serving fantasies you propagate or no such primary document exists in the first place.

 

Hence you live in the realm of fantasy and merely deceive others. Not only are you misledyou mislead.

 

The issue is that fanatics will go to any length to mix what is European history with their own Asiatic history. Again, the ancient Celtic city of Tartessos in Spain is conveniently being rebadged as Tarsis, a city in Turkey known as Tarsus, which is mentioned in one of the books of the Asiatic bible and so the fantasy circus rolls on from one child to another.

 

Ive spoken already about rebadging.

 

One doesnt need to mention Tartessos to find established stone cities in Spain since its well known from many sources such as Caesar, Strabo, Ptolemy and Pliny the Elder that Spain had many large and well established cities hundreds of years before any Arab incursion into Europe.

 

The claim that the Arabs introduced public works, science or agriculture to Spain is of course just more self-serving fantasies being piled up on top of other fantasies.

 
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 23:54
Originally posted by konstantinius

Who ever said in this discussion that there were no cities in Spain prior to the arrival of the Arabs? Are you mad? Is this what you're on about, some kind of anti-Arab trip? You keep going on making things up that were never said.
 

Im certainly not anti-Arab. Youre just not used to discussing a topic with someone who is genuinely well informed on the topic of peninsula history. This is why you constantly resort to intimidating anyone with a different view.

 
Originally posted by konstantinius


As for the evidence that you ask, go to your local library and pick up any book on medieval Spain; you will find information you never imagined before. On my end, I'll try and post photos of the coins, albeit my lackof a scanner. I've seen  the book in the library here in SF; the document I have not personally seen and my information comes from  David Nicolle and Angus McBride's  "El Cid and the Reconquista, 1050-1492", part of Osprey's Men-At-Arms series, if it's any concern to you.  Unlike you,  I am not dillusional and don't have any reason to doubt the validity of their information.
 

So you aim to prove fantasies by providing more fantasies? Its no wonder you know absolutely nothing about genuine history. If you call a modern book written by English authors with a set anti-Catholic agenda, primary source then youre deluding yourself.

 

Quoting English historians on the topic of Spanish history would be like quoting a book on WWII Germany which was written by a Jew.

 

How about you read what Arabic and Persian historians recorded about Al-Andalus or is this too much to ask?

 
 
Originally posted by konstantinius

So, what's your version--short--of Spanish history between, say,  300-900  AD?
 

Its not my version; its whats actually recorded in the unedited and unaltered primary text documents.

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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 23:50
Originally posted by ok ge

Those nomadic Arabs were building new cities since the 8th century.
 
Of course they werent, they just took over existing cities and allowed the original citizens of those cities to continue with their ongoing culture. Like the Mongols, Saracen Arabs were nomadic and rural peoples without a stone building culture.

 

Arabic claims of being builders of cities mainly derives from them being overlords of genuine city building cultures like the Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians, Mesopotamians, Byzantines, Greeks, and Egyptians.

 

Nevertheless this is not the main point of the topic so Im not going to pursue it.



Edited by Worldhistory - 01-Nov-2006 at 23:51
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 06:50
Cheers!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 01:38
Yes! Great pictures Konstantinius!
 
I don't know how someone can denies the Visigothic and Arabic past of Spain. Is like forgotting it Spain was Iberian, Celt, German, Jew and Gypsy as well.
 
The german part is easily seen in the warrior society of the reconquest of Spain, in its medioeval knights, castles, the terminology of war (Bandera, Bandido, Guerra, etc) and even in the physical aspects of many Northern Spaniards, Julio Iglesias included.
 
The Arab part not only impregnated the language (Spanish) and in Andalucian music, but is present in the architecture of Spain and the americas. Including in names like "Omar" (mine) and in such strange words like "Ojala", which means "I hope Allah do it", and which survived the Inquisition. And also in the physical aspect of some Southern Spaniards, Antonio Banderas included.
 
Omar Vega-Martinez, alias Pinguin
 
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  Quote Aktufe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 23:17
Great pictures konstantinius!
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 21:24
Apologies for the multiple posts but I couldn't type after each picture and had to repost.
Anyway, it should be clear that there were both a Muslim presence in Spain prior to the 12th. c. and a Visigothic presence before that.
So, "worldhistory", if you're still out there, what's your version of Spanish history 300-900 AD?

This is why I'm going into archaeology, by the way. So i can grab revisionist charlatans like "worldhistory" by the ankles, turn them upside down, and shake hard untill all the petty change comes tingling to the floor.


Edited by konstantinius - 21-Oct-2006 at 06:49
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 21:12
Leaf from a Koran, 1000 AD.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 21:07
On the top right: marble trough with inscription refering to al-Mansur. It is dated 987-8.




Edited by konstantinius - 22-Oct-2006 at 08:06
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 21:01
On the left: carved ivory box made for Almoqueira, prince of Cordoba, 967 AD.

On the top right: detail from veil in silk and gold bearing inscription with the name of Hisham II, 967-1009 AD. It is known as "Hisham's veil".
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 20:56
On the left: Visigothic gold coin modelled after the Byzantine solidus with a "portrait" (left side) of King Wamba (672-680) and a Byzantine motif (right side) of cross on steps.

On the right: interior of the sanctuary at the Great Mosque of Cordoba.


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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 20:51
Visigothic script from Smaragdus's On the Rule of St. Benedict, end of 9th c.


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