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Why was Europe First?

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Gun Powder Ma View Drop Down
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why was Europe First?
    Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 09:15
[QUOTE=pinguin] Between 1200 and 1400 Europe took the lead of the world.[QUOTE]

D'accord, but it was of course only an imagined lead, just like all other leads before, since the interaction between different civilizations in 1400 was still pretty low.

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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 09:26
How I view it: There were three major revolutions in the history of mankind and the most recently came exclusively from Europe, notably Britain. And this shapes the world in which we now live.

1. Change from hunter and gatherers to agriculture
2. Rise of urban societies
3. Industrialization

To say then that Europe's civilization may have prevailed for 200, 500 or 800 years, means in this context to not address the subject accurately. Actually, this grossly understates the whole question. It has rather to be said that in Europe happened something which was qualitatively unique for the last 5000 years and that it happened only there.

You can't equate any random 200 years of domination of civilization xyz with the two hundred years of industrialization. Because these were only conventional phases, while the processes begun with the first steam machine have been TOTALLY unique and unparalleled since the first cities emerged five millenia ago.

Therefore, the rise of Europe deserves a very special placa. I am not saying this out of Eurocentrism, but because this is a fundamental fact of history. And misapplied Political Correctness should not get in the way of a sound historical statement here.
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 10:57
I totally agree with you Gun Powder, the importance of the industrialization, with Europe as the only original model, overpass to any other historical procces, with the exception of course of the agriculture.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 12:14
I agree that the Industrial Revolution is was an important cause of the "competitive advantage" of the west. however, the roots of the Industrial Revolution are in two previous revolutions: the scientific revolution of the 16th and 17th century (Newton included), and the "Age of discovery" that was started by the Portugueses sailors and that made the markets to skyrocket. (You may add the invention of the printing press as well as a key factor).
 
So, more that the starting point, the Industrial revolution it was the last step in changing the world but not the first. Without the large markets that the colonies of Britain has overseas, it is very unlikely the Industrial Revolution ever happened.
 
And all those changes have a starting point in the changes of the late Middle Ages, in the times of the cathedrals, the windmill and the clockworks.
 
Pinguin.
 
 
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 12:20
this is very persuasive, i agree
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 13:01
I have a third factor that may be a candidate for being essential to the Industrial Revolution, though it may not be as obvious. The Condemnations of 1277, which was for all effects and purposes a decision of the Catholic Church to reject Aristotelianism and encourage new philosophical thinking. This happened because the condemnations encouraged natural philosophers to find holes in the reasoning of Aristotle and/or Averres, in order to transform Aristotelian science into something new. This eventually lead to to a great shift in the intellectual life of Europe, with philosophy superseeding theology as the supreme science of the intellectual elite; and a new way of thinking about the world being developed. With the new focus on philosophy, came an interest in the natural sciences, mathematics and engineering. Without this shift in attitude, and in effect the blessing of the Catholic Church of the pursuit of science, the Renaissance would have been unlikely to occur, with all the consequences that this entails. Europe may well have borrowed all the technology it wanted, but if scientific investigation had been condemned by the Church, it would have generated little progress on its own.

Edited by Decebal - 05-Oct-2006 at 14:15
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 15:54
Very well said, Decebal. The Scholastic Age is a very interesting time-frame of European intellectual thought, considering that it was the foundation for the Renaissance movement.
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 05-Oct-2006 at 15:55
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 17:28
In fact, the acceptation of that, the Renaissance have a link with the XIII knowledge, is the death sentence of the Renaissance concept Smile
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  Quote dick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 17:44
Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma

How I view it: There were three major revolutions in the history of mankind and the most recently came exclusively from Europe, notably Britain. And this shapes the world in which we now live.

1. Change from hunter and gatherers to agriculture
2. Rise of urban societies
3. Industrialization

To say then that Europe's civilization may have prevailed for 200, 500 or 800 years, means in this context to not address the subject accurately. Actually, this grossly understates the whole question. It has rather to be said that in Europe happened something which was qualitatively unique for the last 5000 years and that it happened only there.

You can't equate any random 200 years of domination of civilization xyz with the two hundred years of industrialization. Because these were only conventional phases, while the processes begun with the first steam machine have been TOTALLY unique and unparalleled since the first cities emerged five millenia ago.

Therefore, the rise of Europe deserves a very special placa. I am not saying this out of Eurocentrism, but because this is a fundamental fact of history. And misapplied Political Correctness should not get in the way of a sound historical statement here.
 
I beg to differ, history is holistic, any "minor" event has just as much impact as "major" events.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 17:46
Yes. I agree that in the late Middle Ages, Europe changed radically. The first universities started, people like Thomas Aquinas, King Alphonse the wise, Bacon, where up there shinning. People got nuts for studying. cathedrals, clocks and technology was developed.
 
The Renaissance is just an Italian, artistically oriented concept, but the change happened earlier. Even Dante lived centuries before the Renaissance!
 
Pinguin
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 17:58
Renaissance as an artistical concept is valid only partially, but at the moment that we expand the concept to other fields as the political organization, society, idelogy or economy, and this is a popular view of the history, the "Renaissance" shock with the evidence and crack when we look with accuracy the historical facts. A true analysis of the european rise to the first global position can't begin in 1500 but, like we are doing here, must go to at least the XIII century.
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 02:51
Sorry to change steeds in midstream here guys, but to add to the pics of the Chinese pagodas I posted earlier, I completely forgot to add this one, although it is of a later date than the medieval pagoda towers I posted on page 3 of this thread. The stone-constructed Real Spirit Pagoda of Famen Temple, the original built during the medieval Tang Dynasty but destroyed by an earthquake in the 16th century, was rebuilt in 1579 AD at 47 meters in height as it looks today. It is located 118 kilometers (73 miles) west of the old Han and Tang Dynasty capital of Chang'an (modern-day Xi'an), in Shaanxi Province, and supposedly houses a finger bone of the Sakyamuni (the Buddha). The underground palace was accidentally discovered in 1985 when the provincial government commenced rebuilding the stupa, the palace dimensions being 21.2 meters long with an area of 31.84 square meters.
 
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 06-Oct-2006 at 02:56
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 18:52
I'd like to add that behind the scholastisism of the M. Ages lies what I consider to be the reason for this so-called western preponderance: rights for the indivindual and representational political system, open inquiry, accountability of the governor to the governed,  abstract research and experimentation, citizen-based and/or voluntary militaries. These, I believe, are also a unique European developments that laid the spiritual and social basis for later developments to follow.
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 23:08
Originally posted by konstantinius

I'd like to add that behind the scholastisism of the M. Ages lies what I consider to be the reason for this so-called western preponderance: rights for the indivindual and representational political system, open inquiry, accountability of the governor to the governed,  abstract research and experimentation, citizen-based and/or voluntary militaries. These, I believe, are also a unique European developments that laid the spiritual and social basis for later developments to follow.
 
I very much agree with that.
 
Europeans, no matter all the crimes and abussed that commited with other peoples during colonization, they spread certain principles that changed the world.
 
That's particularly clear in Latin America, for instance. People don't usually give too much credit to the Spanish invasion of the Americas, particularly to the conquest of Mexico and Peru. And the history books and hidden agendas are very quick in remember the war crimes, forgetting there were quite a lot of god people, and even saints, in the ranks of the Spaniards, too.
 
But the fact is they changed many things in the Americas for the better.
 
Something people don't realize is:
 
(1) Most of the native american early deaths were the direct result of the contagious illness brough from Europe by people and domestic animals. Intermarryage assured the preservation of people, because kids were born with natural inmunity! Anywhere in Latin America Native dissapeared, but assimilated to the societies. That's true even in Cuba, Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic, where anti-hispanic propaganda usually make a fuzz about the extinction of the Tainos... but the Tainos still live there, and a large percentage of those populations have native ancestors.
 
(2) Spaniards christianized Native Americans, which could be interpreted like an imperialistic impossition. However, the christianization also stopped some very inhuman practises like: human sacrifices (common in Mexico, Peru and many other places), the subordinate possition of the woman (which were considered a kind of trading good like a domestic animal), the killing of children, which was a common way of control population growth in those times, etc.
 
(3) Far from been democratic, the Aztec and Inca empires where tyranies, that controlled people like if they were objects. All depended on the will of the rulers. The Inca deputies usually decided the couple to marry and the place where a person has to live. There was no freedom like we know today in the Inca or Aztec empires.
With the coming of the Spaniards, institutions like the Church and the King of Spain, served to ballance power with the local governors and rich people, and there was always the possibility to fight for the rights. It was not a perfect system but the roots of freedom were there.
 
(4) The intellectual atmosphere in Colonial Latin America it was a lot more advanced than in Pre-columbian times. Every Spanish capital has a university, and scholars were studying nature, recordings the events of the Ancient empires, studying the local languages, producing barroque arts, arquitecture and music, and building new cities. Native Americans assimilated to the society learned to write in Latin characters, and they produced some of the best documents and testimony of the ancient times and of the conquist from the Native point of view. One of them, the mestizo of Royal Inca blood, called Inca Garcilazo de la Vega, was also a Spanish noble and studied in Spain itself. He is one of the best chronicler of the Inca Empire.
 
 
In conclusion, the world is more human today, thanks to the possitive values of SOME Europeans. like the Catholic priest that were on the side of the Indians and its human rights, during the conquest and the colonial empire.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 03:59
Originally posted by konstantinius

I'd like to add that behind the scholastisism of the M. Ages lies what I consider to be the reason for this so-called western preponderance: rights for the indivindual and representational political system, open inquiry, accountability of the governor to the governed,  abstract research and experimentation, citizen-based and/or voluntary militaries. These, I believe, are also a unique European developments that laid the spiritual and social basis for later developments to follow.
 
I agree, konstantinius. However, there's only one thing that I don't agree with, and that's the accountability of the governor to the governed, which occured in Europe, yes, but was not unique to their cultural/social development.
 
Pinguin, great post, as usual. You've definitely got a good head on your shoulders. How's the weather down there, btw? I've been to Mexico before, but never any farther south than that (unfortunately).
 
Eric
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 05:34

Citizenship.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 10:38
Originally posted by Preobrazhenskoe

..
 
Pinguin, great post, as usual. You've definitely got a good head on your shoulders. How's the weather down there, btw? I've been to Mexico before, but never any farther south than that (unfortunately).
 
Eric
 
Thanks,
 
Well, weather is fine in here. In the part of the country were I live, in winter times rains a lot and is foggy. In summer time is warm and nice, not very hot like in the tropics. We have mediterranean weather, perfect to produce fruits and wine.
 
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 01:44

Reverting back to the topic of Eastern art, which has been discussed since I believe the 3rd page of this thread, I noticed that a lot of the paintings I posted were of the Song, Yuan, and Ming dynasties, whereas very little that I posted was of the earlier Tang Dynasty (618-907 AD) and before in China.

Colossal Buddha, Shanxi (45 feet tall), 5th century AD
 
 
This one below is entitled Thirteen Emperors, painted in 650 AD under the Tang Dynasty.
 
 
Here's an exquisite 9th century painting of a red-haired, blue-eyed Central-Asian monk with an East-Asian Buddhist monk, found in Bezaklik, Eastern Tarim Basin, in China.
 
 
Here's another showing Peoples of the Silk Road, painted in the 9th century, found at Dunhuang, China.
 
 
Here's an even earlier 8th century Chinese fresco showing Sogdian Turks donating riches to the Buddha, found at Bezaklik, Tarim Basin, China.
 
 
 
Seen below is a marble-bust head of Guanyin, Northern Qi period, 6th century AD (sometime before 581 AD)

Seen below, these terracotta statues date to the 6th-7th centuries, found in Xinjiang Province, China.
 
 
This is a 9th century Tang Dynasty cave painting of Xuan Zang, who traveled to modern-day India during the 7th century.
 
 
Here's a largely tattered Tang Dynasty stone-sculpture of the Boddhisattva
 
 
And a little later, here's a 10th century silk scroll painting of the Bodhisattva, found at Dunhuang, China.
 
 
Below, here's two beautiful Northern Song Dynasty masterpiece sculptures of Guanyin, the first one being dated to 1101-1127 AD, while the second one dated roughly to 1100 AD. The third and fourth pics are just other pics of the second statue.
  
 
This one below is the 16-meter-tall (52 feet) 11-headed Guanyin is one of the biggest and oldest colored clay sculptures in China, located in the Tang Dynasty-era Dule (Solitary Joy) Temple. The temple was rebuilt in 984 AD during the Liao Dynasty, when this magnificent statue was erected. It has withstood a total of 28 earthquakes.
 
 
Moving from China to Japan, I found this cool image below. The 33 Keshin (Incarnations) of the Goddess of Mercy (Guanyin). Thirty-three wood-carved figures were presented to Hase Kannon Temple (aka Hase Dera) by shogun Yoshimasa (1449-1471).
 
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 12-Oct-2006 at 06:29
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 00:02
I have a quesiton, can anybody see the last pic? The cool Japanese statues? It was working on my computer before, but now it's not.
 
Eric
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 00:31
no
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