Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Napoleon's Biggest Mistake

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
Author
unicorn View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 12-Mar-2006
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote unicorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Napoleon's Biggest Mistake
    Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 23:53
>Napoleon sold it because he couldn't defend it, his navy was destroyed >by England, he couldn't get there.
 
The most valid point of view IMO. Trafalgar meant loss of sea control. Without that, it was impossible to think to take a profit from a remote overseas colony.
France was in no position to invest in both a continental army and a fleet at the same time. Napoleon had quite some hard time to put taxes in order for only the first goal, and without a continental army he'd have been doomed way before a naval defeat would cause harm.
I think that to a certain extent some steps he made were not "mistakes" but "bad solutions which occurred inevitably due to the context". I think that a mistake, if any, was not something he did but something he did not. Austria was treacherous under the terms of the treaties in 1809. Napoleon scored a difficult victory (which amongst other costed him the life of marechal Lannes, one of his most competent lieutenants). He should have crushed Austria into annihilation, simply dismantling the ex-Roman Empire. Instead, he hoped that a mere alliance through matrimony will turn Austrians into loyal allies. He then went for a double adventure : in Spain and in matrimony. He thought that finally they will leave him alone, and that his father-in-law Francisc will be benevolent to an heir who would be his own blood. Nothing more wrong.
A subsidiary mistake - his thirst for power enraged some of his ex-loyal men, amongst all Talleyrand. Alexander of Russia was still keen to fall to terms when, instead of negociating peace under harsh terms, Talleyrand had a discussion which rather made him Austria's plenipotentiary than France's. Napoleon found Alexander suddenly changed and stubborn after Talleyrand had talks with him. Russians understood that they can't afford Napoleon as ally but they need to resume the duplicitary policy. Thus a rancorous Austria and a duplicitary Russia joined together AND Napoleon, for a first time in his life, underestimated severely the consequence of this secret alliance.
It was said that Napoleon made somehow the same mistake as Hitler. With a difference. Hitler made peace with Stalin (Ribbentropp-Molotov pact) AND was the first to break it. Napoleon made peace with Alexander and was actually PUSHED into breaking it, also relying on the doubtful allegiance of the Austrians. Thus, at Leipzig, he not only faced treachery but in fact Austrians were the "fer de lance" of the campaign.
A subsidiary mistake : the Bernadotte incident. Bernadotte was appointed king of Sweden through the extinction of the former dinasty, and his successors are the single ones still ruling amongst all the houses deriving from Napoleon's appointees. Napoleon was reluctant to appoint Bernadotte, but finally allowed it to happen. Bernadotte provided all Napoleon's foes with not only good advise about warfare tactics, but also with troops.
Third mistake : he crushed Prussia but also humiliated the German princes. At Leipzig this paid severly back. They refused to fight compatriots and turned weapons against Frenchmen at the climax of the battle.
Resuming, it becomes apparent that it was not a mistake in itself but a certain pattern of thought which led into chains of mistakes coming from a tendence to overestimate one's own actions and neglecting that other people will deffinitely not deem them as one wishes. I would still point that the peace concluded with Austria in 1809 was establishing a precedent : Napoleon's own plenipotentiary Talleyrand decided (it seems also that he reached terms on this with his former longstanding enemy Fouche) that France is something, Napoleon is something different. And he proceeded as such. This actually makes for the breakpoint between Napoleon representing France and Napoleon representing only his own (demesurate) ambition. But I reckon Talleyrand was not alone in thinking this. His gesture reflects something many more thought without being able or affording to express. In fact there was no room for negociation with Austria. The imperial house regarded Napoleon as a opportunistic scum and would have never conceived to come to terms with him otherwise than for buying time and better circumstances. Austria proved after Napoleon's downfall the most stubborn adept of conservatorism and reactionary behavior, to such extent that the British had to moderate (ironically) such tendences. At the verge of his echafaudage being shaken, Napoleon thought that showing magnanimity will make him more palatable to the rigid Austrians. He proved utmostly wrong.
 
At corpus non terminatur cogitatione, nec cogitatio corpore (Spinoza, Etica)
Back to Top
Joinville View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Sweden
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 353
  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 17:20
Originally posted by Timotheus

He overextended himself. He went too far, too fast, chiefly by delving into Russia and not making peace with England.

Napoleon wasn't getting peace with the UK short of somehow defeating it. There was a brief period in 1802 when he had beaten the entire reactionary league ranged against revolutionary France, to the point where even the UK saw fit to accept signing a peace treaty.

At that point it momentarily looked as if he had gotten away with it. He had secured most of the gains of the French Revolution, of course setting hemself up as the first liberal dictator in history. The future looked bright. And at that point the UK decided this order of things wasn't satisfactory and started the war again.

From then on it was Britian feeding the opposition to France. Trafalgar removed any threat of Napoleon taking it on directly. Instead he was forced to fight the British proxies one after the other, including the Russians.
That was a mistake first in the sense that Napoleon expected the Russians to march their army out of Russia proper and line up for defeat, like they had done before, and secondly because at the point when he realised the Russians weren't coming, he went in to find them. Otoh, he needed to settle the Russians and playing a waiting game with them seemed just as risky.

It might be that his biggest miscalculation was in fact thinking he could ever make himself palatable to the royal houses of Europe by marrying into one of them, making France safe that way.
The reactionary monarchies were dead set on crushing the French Revolution and the state it had created, the minder of which Napoleon had become.

Spreading the revolution, trying to trigger similar movements in other countries, REALLY overturning the apple cart of the monarchies, could have worked better for him in the end. It would have made the conflicts even more desperate, but it might have turned more of Europe into liberal democracies sooner.
In the end he wasn't enough of a radical revolutionary. He kept trying to make peace with the monarchs instead of kicking over their thrones.
One must not insult the future.
Back to Top
brunodam View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 29-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 136
  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 19:23
It seems to me that Unicorn and Joinville repeat the "usual history" that can be found in every good history book in a college.
We need innovative (and provocative) opinions like those exposed by Maria d. 
I personally agree with her: the Louisiana sale to the newborn US was the biggest mistake of Napoleon! Maria d. has explained (in her posts) very well with convincing arguments her opinion.
I only wonder what would have happened if Napoleon had sold the Louisiana to the Spanish, in order to gain their support in Europe.  In this way the Spanish would have been allies of Napoleon and there would NOT have been the terrible war of occupation of Spain by the Napoleonic armies. So, Napoleon would have obtained an additional help to conquer central and eastern Europe.  And may be Mexico would have grown to a superpower in the next two centuries............Wink
Of course, histoty is not made by "IF", as Maria d. has written.
But the idea (and possibility) is fascinating.....
Bruno

Back to Top
Timotheus View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 478
  Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 00:19
It seems to me that Unicorn and Joinville repeat the "usual history" that can be found in every good history book in a college.


Just because it's oft repeated in good books does not invalidate its factual accuracy.
Back to Top
brunodam View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 29-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 136
  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 09:34
So, Timotheus, why we post in this forum?  Let's go to the "History 101" classroom in a college/university....at least we get good instructions from experienced history professors...
I believe the forums are interesting when we "create" something, not when we "click and copy", as Komnenos writes!    Bruno

Back to Top
brunodam View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 29-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 136
  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 19:53
Rider, as a moderator you are a bit rude.   First with Maria d., now with me..........I was only "joking" with a forumer about "History 101 classroom"....Wink
 
Anyway, because I am entitled to express my own opinions in a forum, I want to repeat that I totally agree with Maria d. on the fact that the Louisiana sale was the biggest mistake of Napoleon ON AN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE OF CENTURIES.  And I want to conclude my intervention in this forum with this excerpt:
 
...."This little event, of France's (dis)possessing herself of Louisiana, is the embryo of a tornado which will burst on the countries on both sides of the Atlantic and involve in it's effects their highest destinies."
 

President Thomas Jefferson wrote this prediction in an April 1802 letter.

Jefferson's prediction of a "tornado" that would burst upon the countries on both sides of the Atlantic and his belief that the affair of Louisiana would impact upon "their highest destinies" PROVED PROPHETIC INDEED.

Gaye Wilson, Monticello Research (2003) ........  "

Bruno

Back to Top
Joinville View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Sweden
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 353
  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 21:09
Originally posted by brunodam

It seems to me that Unicorn and Joinville repeat the "usual history" that can be found in every good history book in a college.
We need innovative (and provocative) opinions like those exposed by Maria d.

If innovative history was on order, we shouldn't for the umpteenth time be dragging out the sorry carcass of Napoleon and political history anyway.

No one else had posted that specific bit of historical interpretation yet. It might as well be aired by me. And it's not as if the Luisina land-sale is exactly a novelty item either.

Innovative and provocative... I don't know... What is it we need them for? Leaving what was done, and might constitute a mistake, for alternative history, interesting prospects open up, had Napoleon gone ahead with some of the naval construction plans intended for breaking the British dominance of the sea.

After Trafalgar Napoleon did put in an effort to reconstititute the French navy. Among other things he constructed a huge shipyard and arsenal at Anvers. The British occupied it in 1814, and the admiral in charge, Martin by name, felt compelled to write to lors Castlerach:

"We have establisged that the naval installations at Anvers had reached a level of development we, thoug forewarned, had been unable to realise in any way. This establishment would, thorugh its progressive development, in a short time have given the French navy such an augmentation that it would have been impossible for Englad the equal it. We might say that the peace which has reduced this port to a simple commercial role is an occasion as important to us as any other in our history."

Now, what if Napoleon had in fact prioritised the navy?

Edited by Joinville - 05-Oct-2006 at 21:10
One must not insult the future.
Back to Top
Timotheus View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 478
  Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 00:18
Bruno, I was not meaning to disparage thinking, just that we don't have to reject something because it's the commonly held idea. I hold a lot of ideas, more socially than as a historian, that are very anti-Establishment, but I don't just go against the Establishment because it's the Establishment. I have reasons. And I know you've put forth your reasons, I just don't find them very convincing.

Now, if Napoleon had prioritised the navy, I think he would have gotten into a naval arms race the same way Britain did with Germany near the start of WWI. (Massie's work is a classic on the matter.) I also think it would have ended the same way as the arms race with Germany did: Britain victorious, though maybe not in so few battles as was done with Nelson. The French had no admiral the equal of Nelson, nor, as Nelson believed, no sailors the equal of British ones. I think it may have prolonged the naval war, but not affected its outcome in any material way.
Back to Top
Joinville View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Sweden
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 353
  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 13:05
Originally posted by Timotheus

Now, if Napoleon had prioritised the navy, I think he would have gotten into a naval arms race the same way Britain did with Germany near the start of WWI. (Massie's work is a classic on the matter.) I also think it would have ended the same way as the arms race with Germany did: Britain victorious, though maybe not in so few battles as was done with Nelson. The French had no admiral the equal of Nelson, nor, as Nelson believed, no sailors the equal of British ones. I think it may have prolonged the naval war, but not affected its outcome in any material way.

Only the hypothesis was that France prioritises the navy after, and as a reaction to, Trafalgar, to recoup its losses .

Nelson was killed at Trafalgar...

And as for sailors, well, pressgangs, "rum, sodomy and the lash" vs. citizen-sailors, and the likes of Surcouf, insisting the way to fight Britain was through disrupting communication and attrition (not huge escadres battling it out), I'm less convinced the RN would win on points.

I.e. of course the British were implicitly convinced of their superiority. But aside from the numerical superiority and vast resources poured into the RN I can't quite see any particular British advantages over the French navy?
One must not insult the future.
Back to Top
Celestial View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 24-Sep-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Celestial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 14:47
To walk into the mosque of Cairo with his shoes on which cost him the Egyptian campaign. Plus the invasion of Russia.
Back to Top
giani_82 View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 231
  Quote giani_82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 07:57

Napoleon inherited a large amount of enemies that France had even before the consulate. He is indeed to be blamed for claiming the throne for himself, but he could not prevent another massachre in his own "step" country of the likes that the Revolution and the Jacobine terror did.

After all he is one of the first to claim a desire to unite Europe, and as such he somehow appears as a messiah of the Great Revolution, because even when he was defeated he left enough reason for historians to analyze and correct the mistakes of the POLITICAL revolution, and really accpet the appearance of the New World Order. Yes he failed, but he knew he was a messiah of these ideals (or at least he claimed to be one) and with his defeat he left an untorelable echo in history of what really happens when the human socciety is hiding BEHIND Conservative conceptions.

Yes, he paid the prize of many lives of his soldiers, but they were eager to follow him anywhere, because they believed he could bring the ideals that the French Revolution failed to KEEP.

So if you ask for his greatest mistake - I believe even in this massachre that followed his lead he succeeded, he left a glorious name, but that's a childish story in opposition to the philosophy he succeeded to change.
 
Still he is may be one of the reasons for the next consequitive World Wars, but he paved the wave of how to justily (if there is justice at all) use war to persue political reasons that he believed and was trusted upon by half of Europe to be moral, and stable.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall."
Confucius
Back to Top
pekau View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Atlantean Prophet

Joined: 08-Oct-2006
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3335
  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 00:54

It's hard to judge Napoleon's biggest mistake, since one mistake usually can't bring the French Empire to her knees.

Napoleon's first mistake is having two fronts just before the Battle of Trafalgar. France was planning to cripple Royal Navy by massing the French and Spanish navy (Spain was French Empire's ally). But at that time, Austria and Prussia formed alliance to attack France. Napoleon gathered his troops and suppressed the Austrians/Prussians... but while he was away, Nelson attacked Napoleon's navy in the Battle of Trafalgar... and France was unable to mass another great navy again. In frustation, he introduced Continental System to blockade all British goods in European markets. In the beginning, it was successful. In fact, Imperial Russia, Austria-Hungary and Prussia declared war against Britain. (Though they did not get involved in terms of military since Britain achieved sea supremacy.
 
Problem with this system is that France merchants secretly traded with Britain anyway since some goods such as sugar just had to be imported from Britain's colonies. Russia found the new trade routes by land quite difficult. Imagine dragging goods by horses from Moscow to Paris? Without railroads (Which is not invented yet) such trade is impossible. Russia was dependent of Western goods, and without sea... they are doomed.
 
And Portugal refused to join the Continental System. Napoleon attacked Spain in order to get to Portugal. (But Spain was France's ally. What ahppened?Confused) And this caused, as everyone know, The Peninsular War occured. Spainish militants used guerrilla tactics that frustated professionally trained French soldiers (Like America troops in Iraq in worse senerio because French troops did not possess superior technology.) Moreover, Britain under leadership of Wellington reinforced the Spanish militants. Before suppressing Spain for good, Napoleon once again started another front; Russia. He pulled troops out of Spain to form Grand Army and attacked Russia. Unfortunately, Alexander I knew that he could not beat Napeolon by battles. So he used scouraged earth policy by burning villages and leaving no supplies to areas conquered by France. France, despite having low supplies, managed to conquer Moscow... but Alexander I simply moved the capital to St. Petersburg. Expecting a quick victory, Napoleon did not bring a lot of supplies... and Russian winter blockaded the supply routes. Napoleon ordered retreat, but he was not able to pull troops out fast enough because his men was carrying back the pillaged goods and slowed down their march.
 
With his forces weakened (600,000 Grand Army went into Russia, only several thousands came out alive) Furthermore, most of his Grand Army consisted foreign troops. They deserted Grand Army when Russian winter came.
 
When Napoleon managed to come back to power. He was not able to organize his army in time to win the Battle of Waterloo. Remember that Napoleon fought one enemy at the time and preventing all European powers to fight against France at the same time. No more. Austrian, Prussian, British and Russian armies all joined their forces and attacked at the same time, knowing that other objectives were no longer important. Napoleon must be removed. Napoleon was unable to create strong formation and used the artillery (His forte) similar to WWI tactic. Artillery barge, then infantry storms in and weaken the enemy's center.
 
Poor Napoleon. He was pretty close.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 15:59
Has to be the invasion of Russia but on a wider scale he like all major rulers i.e. Alexander the Great and Hitler, overextended his armies to breaking point, and Russia being so large and inhospitable it is not surprising that it brought about this overextension and downfall   
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810
  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 17:52
Hello to you all
 
Well, I think that Spain not Russia was Napoleon's Bane. He had no reason whatsoever to get involved in that country except Portugal and Spaniards would have been more than happy to join any adventure against it as equals, but to occupy it and commit up to 350 000 men at one point (1810-1811) in what was an obviously futile attempt to pascify the country. His troops were isolated from each other, the people were extremely hostile and no matter how many times he defeated the rebels they quickly find more recruits from the masses of angry and proud Spaniards. I believe that if Napoleon abandoned Spain once the last attempt to invade Portugal failed, France might have continued to be a republic and who knows, he might well have turned all Europe against the one force that kept the alliance alive, Britain.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

banned

Joined: 15-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 612
  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 18:11
Take Napoleon at his word:
 
"I have made two mistakes with Talleyrand--first, I did not take his good advice, and second, I did not have him executed when I did not follow his ideas."
 
The Anno Terribilis comes in 1808...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.121 seconds.