Ancient & modern Greeks

The Fallmerayer Thesis in the Light of Genetic Evidence  by Dienekes

(http://www.answers.com/topic/jakob-philipp-fallmerayer)

Jacob Fallmerayer stirred quite a controversy in the 19th century by proposing that the Hellenic nation had perished in the Middle Ages by admixture with Slavs and Albanians.

We are now in a position, through genetic evidence to evaluate this thesis, at least with respect to the question of Slavic settlements.

Slavs are distinguished by having a specific Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a, or HG3, or Eu19. This reaches frequencies of higher than 50% in Poles and decreases significantly in non-Slavic populations. The "Macedonians" of FYROM, the Slavic population immediately to the north of Greece have frequencies of R1a of 35%.

We must warn that R1a itself is not a Slavic marker. This means that any particular R1a sequence could, or could not be of Slavic origin. But, a population that has mixed with Slavs is likely to show this in relatively high levels of R1a.

Ornella Semino published a study in Science 290: 1155 in which the levels of R1a (which she calls Eu19 are given in various populations. Greeks have 11.8%, that is about 1/6 that of the Hungarians, who top the list at 60%. The Hungarians are not Slavs, but from the genetic standpoint they could very well be of Slavic origin, converted linguistically by the Asiatic Magyars. The Poles at 56.4% are the highest Slavic population.

We must note that ancient Slavic groups at the time of the Slavic dispersals probably had even higher levels of R1a. After all, Poles and Hungarians are themselves only partly Slavic in origin, and the result of admixture of a predominantly Slavic element with indigenous pre-Slavic ones. As a result, it is likely that at the time of their migrations, the Slavs had even higher frequencies of R1a.

R1a did not originate with the Slavs (that is why it is not a Slavic marker). Its origins in a Eastern European refugium after the Last Glacial Maximum means that it has had plenty of time to spread across the continent even to places where Slavs were never present. For example, its frequency in Syrians at a frequency of 10%, close to that of Greece, in the Saami of Scandinavia at 10%, Turks at 6.6% and in Albanians in 9.8%. It is even found in the Dutch, at a frequency of 3.7%, a population that has been largely unaffected by any Slavonic incursion. Given that Greece is closer to the area where R1a probably originated, it is very likely that R1a lineages would have been part of early population elements of the Balkans.

Thus, we know that at least a part of 11.8% of R1a in Greeks is of pre-Slavic origin. We also know that the ancient Slavs had frequencies of it in excess of 50%. It's hard to quantify the exact percentages, but I will give an educated guess, that 5% of R1a lineages in Greece are of Slavic origin, while the ancient Slavs had it in frequency of 75%. The picture is not much different if we change these numbers, but they will do for now. As a result, the Slavonic influence in Greece turns out to be about 7%, an almost exact match for the figure given by Vasiliev in his History of the Byzantine Empire based on demographic considerations.

This figure might turn out to be less, or slightly more. Better resolution using markers distinguishing R1a chromosomes might provide us with additional information. But, the conclusion seems unavoidable, that the contribution of Slavs to the Greek gene pool (if any) is very limited, certainly not enough to extinguish the noble Hellenic nation as Fallmereyer had proposed.

An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Greeks, Cretans and other islanders) and various Middle Eastern and North African populations revealed a "line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon," which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that "gene flow was more the exception than the rule," attributing this result to "a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture."

(Simoni et al., Hum Biol, 1999)

 

(We need someone who has an opposite opinion to rekindle the conversation)

 

i agree with you Akritas. According to new theory Dorieans at 1100bc they were reurnig from the north. Whe i say RETURNING i mean that they were living in GReece they go north and they return.

1. Preservation of long ā (α) where Attic/Koinechange it to long open ē (η), as in γᾶ μάτηρ (gā mātēr) "earth mother" � Attic/Koine γῆ μήτηρ (gē mētēr).
2. Contraction ae > η (ē) instead of Attic/Koine ᾱ (ā).
3. Original eo, ea > ιο, ια (io, ia) in certain Doric dialects.
4. Certain Doric dialects ("severe Doric") have η, ω (ē, ō) for the "spurious diphthongs" Attic/Koine ει, ου (ei, ou) (i.e. secondary long ē, ō due to contraction or compensatory lengthening. The most prominent examples are genitive singular in -ω (-ō) = -ου (-ou), accusative plural in -ως (-ōs) = -ους (-ous) and the infinitive in -ην (-ēn) = -ειν (-ein).
5. Short α (a) = Attic/Koine ε in certain words: ἱαρός (hiaros), Ἄρταμις ('*Artamis), γα (ga), αἰ (ai)

The doric dialect still survives in Tsakonian, Sarakatsanian and in South Italy. Doric influenced are the northen Greek dialects(Epirus,Macedonia)

According to an official vlach page the Etymological Dictionary  of the Vlach Language by K.Nikolaidis(1909) contains 6.657 words. Of that 3650 have greek origin,latin 3560,185 slavic,150 albanian and 157 with unknown etymology.

Those analogies aren�t so accurate because of the small number of words but shows the huge greek influence in the vlach vocabulary.

To say that the greek influence in the vlach language is much less from 12% shows the unreliability of your sourse.

The Vlachs never believed that they are different from the rest of Greeks ethnically(apart of those few who migrated to Romania and are seen by the Vlachs as traitors),and they fought and died for Greece long before the establishment of the state.

The  presence of vlach speaking people along the two ancient and modern trade roads,Dunabe and Egnatia,shows that they are an effect of the latinisation  through the participation of the indigenous people as mercenaries in roman legions.Ioannis Lydos in the ages of Justinian says that the Greeks uses a lot the latin language.

The lack of historic references about a mass dacoromanian migration, it would be a great event this mass removing of a big population and it would be recorded in writings and oral traditions,the Vlachs don�t have a memory of a previous homeland,which would be utopic if we accept the origin of Vlachs from the fertile plains of Romania. If you have seen where Vlachs live in Greece you will wonder why some people would leave the plains to live to the barren slopes of Pindus. The common customs between the Vlachs and the rest of Greeks, same dances, same folk believes(neraides(ancient niriides forest female spirits),kalikantzaroi etc).

The slavomacedonians (est. 50-100 thousands) are the slavic remaints of the population exchanges and immigration, and can be found only in the west macedonia as a linguistic minority along a Greek majority of Pontian and Macedonian Greeks.

About Arvanites who are estimated around 150000 are considered Greeks who gained this right by fighting side by side with Greeks,accepted the greek culture and  of course they consider themselves as Greeks and nothing else. Their original homeland is in the south albania and north epirus. The original �fares� who came in the late middle ages contained and greek elements. After the invitation of the Frank and Katalunian rulers and economic  motives given the already mixed group of arvanites intermarried with the local greek elements of the lands they colonised.

And about our team funs ,i can say the ironic fact that we say the paok funs bulgars even though the majority of paok funs are descedants of Greeks from Ionia. You can�t take seriously these nonsences. We also call the AEK funs �turks� because the establishers of the team where from turkey. Again ironically even though the majority of AEK and PAOK  funs are of Ionian and Constantinopolitan origin the one calls the other turk and bulgar. This happens just because its football and every one try to say something insulting for the other, because like  big insults are considered by all this type of characterizations.