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John Lenon
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Topic: Early Russian history Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 08:11 |
Philhellene , very interesting analyse about "ros" and "rus'". But first link is dead But as I understand that there is theory about the Bible's source of word "Ros" ....
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Guests
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 09:59 |
Ive always been under the impression that the word Russia comes from the word Rus, that was what the Slavic and Baltic people called (still do in some languages) Swedish vikings (Svear) from the region of 'Roslagen' that lies in Svealand (Sweden).
Thats what ive read and heard
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 10:43 |
Originally posted by addo
Ive always been under the impression that the word Russia comes from the word Rus, that was what the Slavic and Baltic people called (still do in some languages) Swedish vikings (Svear) from the region of 'Roslagen' that lies in Svealand (Sweden).
Thats what ive read and heard |
That's the most plausible explanation as I see it. For the record, Roslagen means Ros' Law (the Scandinavian o is pronounced as a Baltic/Slavic u). Then whether the term later on meant Scandinavians or people in the region in general is another matter, personally I believe the term changed over the centuries.
And please post translations if you need to post in Russian, I feel I miss half the discussion. :)
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John Lenon
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Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 04:15 |
Styrbiorn, in the links provided by Philhellene there are analyse of word "Rus" and "Ros". (For example, if we translate into russian: russian - russkij, Russia - Rossija) There is shown that the word "Rus",with greater possibility, come from the name of Swedish vikings, but the word "Ros" come from Bizantium. The theory is next:
Assosiation of Rus to Ros in Bizantium was based on mythical peoples - Ros, which could come to sirian-bizantium historical tradition , because of noncorrect traslation of phrase from Old Testament Ezekiel book (word duke-leader. old. hebrew "rosh"). This "knowledge" about barbaric northern peoples Ros(widely distributed in context of legend about Gog and Magog), for example was used by patriarch Fotiy when Constantinople was sieged by Rus' in 860: " People come from northern country, going like to another Ierusalim ..". So , from IX century in in Bizantium documentation and later in greek language we could find name "Ros" instead of "Rus'".
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Scytho-Sarmatian
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Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 04:42 |
Years ago I read somewhere about some tribe or something called "Rukhs-As" as being the origin (or a possible origin) of the name "Russia." Has anyone ever heard of this?
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 07:48 |
Originally posted by John Lenon
Styrbiorn, in the links provided by Philhellene there are analyse of word "Rus" and "Ros". (For example, if we translate into russian: russian - russkij, Russia - Rossija) There is shown that the word "Rus",with greater possibility, come from the name of Swedish vikings, but the word "Ros" come from Bizantium. The theory is next:
Assosiation of Rus to Ros in Bizantium was based on mythical peoples - Ros, which could come to sirian-bizantium historical tradition , because of noncorrect traslation of phrase from Old Testament Ezekiel book (word duke-leader. old. hebrew "rosh"). This "knowledge" about barbaric northern peoples Ros(widely distributed in context of legend about Gog and Magog), for example was used by patriarch Fotiy when Constantinople was sieged by Rus' in 860: " People come from northern country, going like to another Ierusalim ..". So , from IX century in in Bizantium documentation and later in greek language we could find name "Ros" instead of "Rus'". |
I don't really buy that. Remember that we are talking about different peoples with different ways of writing: it's all down to sound values, and I don't believe there was a difference between ros and rus. It's a bit like arguing there would be a difference between the Estonian and Finnish names of Sweden: Rootsi and Ruotsi.
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Philhellene
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Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 18:57 |
Philhellene , very interesting analyse about "ros" and "rus'". But first link is dead But as I understand that there is theory about the Bible's source of word "Ros" ....
I`ve renewed it.
http://rapidshare.de/files/36943530/Russia.pdf.html
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John Lenon
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Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 04:10 |
Scytho-Sarmatian, I did't hear about it . Give pls some info. Styrbiorn, it just a theory. But Estonian and Finnish
are two close, but different laguages. But in russian(one language) there are two words "russkiy"(russian) and "Rossiya"(Russia). Because of that it is interesting to find out why it is so ?
Philhellene, thanx !.
Edited by John Lenon - 19-Oct-2006 at 04:11
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Scytho-Sarmatian
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Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 06:11 |
Since it was a long time ago, I don't remember what book I read it in. I think it was some sort of encyclopaedia. Anyway, if I were to take a guess I would say that the name "Rukhs-As" may be a variation of Roxolani, which was the name of one of the Sarmatian tribes. The Roxolani inhabited the area around modern Kiev, if I'm not mistaken.
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pebbles
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 12:06 |
Originally posted by BigL
The word Slaves comes from Slav people because they were constanty stolen by the Khazars who sold them to the Middle East as slaves.
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Slav is the " root word " for slave in English,its meaning appropriately correlates to socially-entrenched serfdom in Russia for many centuries.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 12:13 |
Why reply to a more than 2 year old post, by a poster who's problably no longer around?
Edited by Styrbiorn - 04-Mar-2009 at 12:14
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Reginmund
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 12:32 |
Originally posted by pebbles
Slav is the " root word " for slave in English,its meaning appropriately correlates to socially-entrenched serfdom in Russia for many centuries. |
The word itself derives from the Latin word sclavus, which in turn derives from Greek sklavos, both of them meaning "Slav" in the sense of the Slavic people. In old German the word gained its connotation with slavery through German expansion into eastern Europe in the ninth and tenth centuries, which put so many Slavs in circulation in the slave trade that the name of the people became synomous with slavery. This connotation spread to other Germanic-speaking areas with time, in England for example the word "slave" is first registered in 1280, written "sclave" in Middle English.
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Mastermind
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Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 16:55 |
Proof That Russia came from Ukraine:
As you can clearly see Here "Kievan Rus" extends to modern russia from modern Ukraine...
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Mastermind
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Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 17:00 |
Its as simple as that and the kievan rus was founded by the ruriks....
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Mastermind
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Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 17:06 |
And right away ill say that im a Ukrainian
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Mastermind
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Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 17:09 |
Also Ukrainans come from Ruriks and Russians come from Romanovs....
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Sarmat
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Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 21:28 |
You mean that all the Ukrainians originate from Riuriks? It's nonsense. The same as that all Russians are Romanovs.
Furthermore, Russia was ruled up until the end of the 16th century by the Riurik dynasty monarchs and the first Romanovs actually were relatives of Riurikids.
And by whom was Ukraine ruled until the 18th century? By Lithuanian and Polish kings? Honestly, I see that the Riurik trace in Russia is much visible than in Ukraine.
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Torsten Stålhandske
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Posted: 21-Mar-2009 at 12:42 |
I took a liberty to modify Masterminds map a little bit. It's much more inline with chronology and origins of the Rus'. Rus' did not start in Kiev but in southern shores of Lake Ladoga. Modern Rurikids have been DNA tested for their direct paternal origins. They belong to haplogroup N1c1. Their paternal homeland was somewhere in modern day Finland (not very surprising considering the location of Rus' Khaganate). http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=results
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Sarmat
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Posted: 21-Mar-2009 at 14:31 |
Yes, Mastermind's map is incorrect. Ancient Rus history starts in Novgorod not in Kiev. It's only later that Riurikids come down to Kiev from their homeland of Novgorod and establish their rule there.
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Torsten Stålhandske
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Posted: 21-Mar-2009 at 16:00 |
Originally posted by Sarmat
Yes, Mastermind's map is incorrect. Ancient Rus history starts in Novgorod not in Kiev. It's only later that Riurikids come down to Kiev from their homeland of Novgorod and establish their rule there. |
Not in Novgorod!! In Aldeigjuborg (Staraya Ladoga). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_Khaganate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staraya_Ladoga Rus' of Ladoga (lake Ladoga was called Neva-lake back then, as is the Neva-river streaming from Ladoga to Gulf of Finland even today) were allready mentioned in Frankish annals (Annals of St. Bernin) allready in 838 AD. Spanish Moor Al-Yakubi wrote down about Rus' attack in Sevilla 842 AD. The Rus' were very much reality long before Novgorod existed. Roots of the Rus' are in the shores of Ladoga. Novgorod was established around ~ 860 AD, as a proper town only from ~900 onwards. Aldeigjuborg (oldest strata is around early-mid-8th century) was allready over hundred years old market town at that point. As was Alaborg, another domain of the Rus', located at the mouth of river Syas (Syväjoki, deep river is the original finnic form). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaborg
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