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Early Russian history

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TheDiplomat View Drop Down
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Early Russian history
    Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 13:42
Originally posted by gramberto

Are the Rus slaves?
 
 Depends on the vision of people you read their opinions.
 
For example, Adolf Hitler once said that The Russians were a mass-born slaves who always feel the need of a master. And thereare alot of examples in history that demonstrate the Russians were slaves  in Middle Age,in near Age and in modern age as well..Even today most of the sex slaves worldwide come from Russia.
 
 
I thought they were descendants of vikings?
 
They are..and called VARANGIANS as well. The Eastern Slavs were rich in terms of natural sources but disordered in terms of law. So once they went to the vikings and told them to rule the Eastern Slavs. and Ryurik accepted their offer and  established his dynasty in the wake of it.
 
When was the term 'rus' first used?
 
It is highly disputed. But one thing is for sure in my opinion and it is that it could  have been used first after A.C 6.century
 
 
When did Russia become a strong state?
 
Russia became a strong state in 15.century. It also marks the time the European diplomats visited Moscow for the first time. So it goes without saying, I suppose.
 
No need  to argue  that in 1453 Ivan The Third was trong enough to drive out the Tatars on his own and declared Muscovy as the Third Rome after the conquest of East Roman Capital by the Ottoman Dynasty.
 
Some here argued that the Kiean Rus was also srong. But I doubt that. Kievan Rus owed evrything to the East Rome and saw a bitter end with the comings of Mongols in the 13.century.
 
 


Edited by TheDiplomat - 27-Aug-2006 at 13:45
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 17:36
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Originally posted by gramberto

Are the Rus slaves?
 
 Depends on the vision of people you read their opinions.
 
For example, Adolf Hitler once said that The Russians were a mass-born slaves who always feel the need of a master. And thereare alot of examples in history that demonstrate the Russians were slaves  in Middle Age,in near Age and in modern age as well..Even today most of the sex slaves worldwide come from Russia. 
 
Gramberto, Russians are not slaves. They are Slavs. I completely don't understand whatever You call Russians slaves ( which means a servant ) or Slavs ( which describes group of nations - Poles, Russians, Czechs, Slovacks etc. ). Russians were not slaves in middle ages and later on. Of course some were caught by Tartars and sold but we can't consider Russians slaves because of that. 
They are defenetly Slavs.
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 19:05
Yes, they are Eastern Slavs christianized by Istanbul in 988 whereas you western Slavs-Poles,Czechs,Slovaks were christianized by Rome.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 19:18
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

 
 Depends on the vision of people you read their opinions.
 
For example, Adolf Hitler once said that The Russians were a mass-born slaves who always feel the need of a master. And thereare alot of examples in history that demonstrate the Russians were slaves  in Middle Age,in near Age and in modern age as well..Even today most of the sex slaves worldwide come from Russia.
 
 
 
 
Confused I don't want to comment this but may be moderators take a look at this post?
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 19:25
I think you misunderstood my post. I do not consider any nation as a slave people for The Mighty Creator's sake.!!! There a question was asked like are the Rus slaves? and i wanted to reply in a different way rather than simply writing NO.
 
Given the fact that history is an invention,an invention of the historian, whose interpratation makes up your mind, that guy may have read the version of a historian who  held that view.


Edited by TheDiplomat - 27-Aug-2006 at 19:30
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  Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 09:40

1. According to early Russian history there are one good source : "Old Russian Primary Chronicle " (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle). IMHO that is the source to start with, if somebody wants to learn something about early Russian hiistory.(unforunally it is difficult to find it in Eglish  Unhappy). A small value information can be found here: http://www.dur.ac.uk/a.k.harrington/kimohist.html.

2. One of point of views is that  the Russian state before XV did not exist. There were only a lot of grand duchies (Moskovskoe, Novgorodskoe, etc). Kievan Rus' was the first union of grand duchies around the grand duchy of Kiev (I think it was a state too) .
As I remember  officially Russian state history begun in the middle of XV century with Moscow as capital.
 
3. Russian are Slavs, but in the beginning of the history of Rus' the nobles of some grand duchies 100% were Scandinavians. Just read their names (Rurik, Askold, Oleg (scand. Helgi), Olga (Helga), etc.).
 
4. What for word Rus' - Russia, everything could be clear, except that Russians call their motherland Rossia (Россия) ...
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 18:20
Well, not exactly, John, the title Knjaz were more similar to King, not to duke. There were indeed many independent cities but Kiev was a sort of the major one. And Kiev knjazes put their sons as knjazes of other cities (maybe except Novgorod). And then indeed Moscow duchie united all others, the process finished with Ivan IV.
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 03:11
Originally posted by Anton

Well, not exactly, John, the title Knjaz were more similar to King, not to duke. There were indeed many independent cities but Kiev was a sort of the major one. And Kiev knjazes put their sons as knjazes of other cities (maybe except Novgorod). And then indeed Moscow duchie united all others, the process finished with Ivan IV.


Actually Veliky Kniaz could be more equivalent to king, instead of kniaz. There were kniazes in almoust every Rus town. The Veliky kniaz had his residence in Kiev and he counted overlord over whole Rus (not in practise), later this title was moved (in second part of 12th cent. afaik) to Vladimir-Suzdal, but he very rare had any power over neighbouring Rus territories.
Actually Rus states could be called City states not duchies, because they were centred around leading city (Smolensk, Novgorod, Chernigov etc.). Though this might not go for Galicia, Volhynia which had their land names.
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  Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 03:14
Anton, I mean Knjaz = Grand Duke (not just duke Wink).  Knjazhestvo = Grand Duchy.
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  Quote arfunda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 08:02

Here's the genetical research results of modern Russians

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/03/mtdna-distribution-in-european-russian.html

"mtDNA distribution in European Russian populations

Very interesting article:
Russians, who occupy an immense area comparable by its size with the whole Western Europe, are characterized by substantial anthropological and dialectic diversity. Development of the independent Russian nation began in the 9th century A.D., as a result of the integration of Eastern Slavic tribes within the frames of the Old Russian State, and assimilation of Finno-Ugric, Baltic, and Turkic ethnic groups [1]. Subsequent integration and migration processes, as well as an enlargement of the territory of residence, introduced new ethnic elements into the Ancient Russian ethnic group. Numerous investigations of anthropological traits and classical genetic markers provided the idea on the complex genetic structure of Russians, and described the regional differences between different groups, caused by the interaction of newly arrived Slavic tribes with aboriginal populations. Until recently, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of Russians was studied only in some individual populations. At present, this problem attracts growing attention.

...

Most part of these mitotypes (from 80 to 85%) mark the main European haplogroups, H, I, J, K, T, U, V, W, and X (Table 2). Five of these haplogroups, H, U, J, T, and K, which are most prevalent among the European populations, account for 70 to 78% of the total diversity. In general, haplogroup frequency distribution patterns described in Russian populations were similar to those in European populations [5, 1014, 16]. However, it should be noted that rather high frequencies (14 to 19.5%) of the mitotypes, not attributed to the haplogoups mentioned, were observed in the Russian populations examined (in Table 2, these mitotypes are defined as others). This mitotype group may contain Asian and some minor European haplogroups, the members of macrohaplogroup N.

...

Finally, the most specific Tambov oblast is located at the border between the Eastern European and the steppe complex, the anthropological specificity of which was repeatedly mentioned in a number of studies [1, 20].


...

Thus, our results point to closeness of the populations from three oblasts (Ivanovo, Ryazan, and Vologda) to the average regional type, as well as to a substantial difference of the representatives of the two southern oblasts, Orel and Tambov, from this average type. It seems likely that this pattern reflects subdivision of the Russian ethnic area into zones determined by the patterns of the relationships between the Slavs and the local ethnic groups. This subdivision was first described by Rychkov et al. in their study of anthropological and classical genetic markers [8, 21]. According to the view of these authors, this subdivision reflected the movements of the annalistic Slavs from the west eastward. Ivanovo, Ryzan, and Vologda oblasts, defined in the present study as middle Russian, are located within the most typical of Russian population zone of panmixia, i.e., the region where the forward movement of ancient Slavs proper was replaced by intensive assimilation of the local (in this case, probably, Finno-Ugric) population [8, 21]. At the same time, genetically specific populations (Orlov and Tambov) are territorially close to the cores of the greatest anthropological specificity of the Russian population, which, according to Rychkov et al., traces back to the annalistic Slavic tribes [8]. Inclusion of more Russian populations in further analysis will probably enable more precise characterization of the observed patterns.
Characteristics of the eastern European complex:
Characteristics: Darkening of the color of the hair and eyes distinguishes this from the White Sea-Baltic group. In the territory of the eastern European plain have been isolated several local combinations, that are differentiated, in essence, by variations in the cephalic index, and by the width and proportions of the face.

Description of the steppe complex:
Steppe Complex. Unfortunately, the population of the Steppe zone has been rather poorly studied by anthropologists. Therefore, the description of the Steppe complex is based only on scanty data regarding some Russian groups inhabiting the midflows of the Dona and Khoper rivers, and a few Turkic-speaking groups dwelling on the right banks of the Volga, most importantly the Mishars. The populations which form this complex are distinguished by mesocephaly, relatively small absolute dimensions of the head and face, partial depigmentation, intermediate development of tretiarry hair cover, intermediate horizontal facial profile and relatively strong nasal protrusion.
See also Hair-color of the Proto-Slavs, Hair-color of the Proto-Slavs (revisited).

Russian Journal of Genetics
Volume 41, Number 9

Mitochondrial DNA Polymorphism in Russian Population form Five Oblasts of the European Part of Russia

I. Yu. Morozova et al.

Abstract New data on mitochondrial DNA polymorphism among Russian population from five oblasts, located within the main ethnic area of Russians, specifically, Ryazan' oblast, Ivanovo oblast, Vologda oblast, Orel oblast, and Tambov oblast (N = 177) are presented. RFLP analysis of the mtDNA coding region showed that most of the mtDNA diversity in the populations examined could be described by main European haplogroups H, U, T, J, K, I, V, W, and X. Haplogroup frequency distribution patterns in the populations of interest were analyzed in comparison with the European and Uralic populations. Based on the haplogroup frequencies, the indices of intraethnic population diversity, Wright's F st statistics, and the values of squared deviation from the mean, as well as genetic distances between Russians and European and Uralic populations were estimated. Analysis of these indices along with the anthropological data provided identification of a number of regional groups within the populations examined, which could either result from the interaction of ancient Slavs with different non-Slavic tribes, or could be caused by the ethnic heterogeneity of the ancient Slavs themselves."
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  Quote arfunda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 08:08

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-58696.html

How the Slavs conquered Russia

05.05.2006

Geneticist specialists from the Institute of Biological Problems of the North, Far-East Branch of Russian Academy of Sciences, are reconstructing the picture of Eurasia colonization by the Slavs. According to the researchers opinion, the Slavonic men and women jointly developed the territory of the south of contemporary Russia. However, after the 9th century, women used to stay at home, and colonization of the east and north was mainly performed by men.

This conclusion was made by geneticists through analyzing variable consecutions of DNA of mitochondria and of some sections of Y-chromosome with representatives of 10 Russian populations from the Stavropol Territory in the south through the Pskov Region in the north and from the Orel Region in the west through the Nizhni Novgorod Region in the east. The mitochondrial DNA is inherited from generation to generation along a female line, DNA of Y- chromosome along a male line. Analysis of variability of these consecutions allows to judge about migrations of our forefathers and foremothers.


< =text/> < ="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/show_ads.js" =text/>

Along the maternal line, Russian populations are rather close to each other. They can be conditionally split into two zones. Inhabitants of the south-eastern zone (including the Orel, Rostov, Kursk, Kaluga and Saratov Regions and the Stavropol Territory) have the roots among western Slavs, Baltic and some Finno-Ugric nations (Poles, Lithuanians and Estonians). Ancestors of Russians in the north-eastern zone took wives from the Finno-Ugric and other nations of Eastern Europe (Finns, Karelians, Maris, Tatars and Adygeis).

Comparison of Y-chromosomes of Russian populations provides different results. Only the Pskov and coast-dweller populations are close along the paternal line to the Finno-Ugric and Baltic nations of the Northern and Eastern Europe, the overwhelming majority of Russians are relatives to the Poles, Ukrainians and Byelorussians. Judging by consecution variations of the male chromosome, the Slavs, arriving in various locations of Eastern Europe, contacted in different ways with residential population: in some places - closely and in some others otherwise.

Genetic analysis results agree with the anthropological data, according to which Russian populations can be divided into three zones. In the western part of the ethnic territory, Russians descend from the Slavs who had come from Central Europe. Russian population of the central part appeared as a result of mixture of the Slavs with the Finno-Ugric nations, Eastern European mothers dominating in these populations, and the population of the North evidently has in its genealogy Finno-Ugric ancestors of both sexes. According to the geneticists, the reasons for these differences are caused by different participation of men and women in Slavonic migrations. Women apparently participated only in early phases of the Slavs migration into Eastern Europe. Starting from the 9th century, colonization of the east and the north of Eastern Europe was mainly performed by men who chose wives from residential population. The obtained picture needs more precise definition, therefore the researchers are planning to further investigate variability of specific maternal and paternal DNAs in different Russian populations.

Sergey Komarov | Source: alphagalileo
Further information: www.informnauka.ru

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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 20:20
As  i said before the Word "Slave" comes from the ethnic group the Slavs, becasue the Jewish Khazars used to constantly steal them and sell them as Slaves to Persians.
This is also how the Jews got a reputation as slave dealers.
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  Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 02:48
So, Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, Croats, Serbs, Bulgarians, Bosniaks,etc. had been stolen by Khazars too LOLClapLOL
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 07:27
I've always heard the word "slave" originated from the German peoples' exploitation of Slavs, which would make more sense IMO considering the German drang nach osten and its consequences, and the fact that it's a Germanic word.

I didn't even know the Jews had a reputation as slave traders.
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 07:59
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

 christianized by Istanbul in 988 
 
 
Confused
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  Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 09:37

If the word Slavs comes from Slaves, then Germans comes from germs,  Sweden from sweat, Turc from turd (sorry, just linquistic example of word-game) ??? ConfusedLOL

Who don't know the origin of term Slav can just look in:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 17:46
Originally posted by BigL

As  i said before the Word "Slave" comes from the ethnic group the Slavs, becasue the Jewish Khazars used to constantly steal them and sell them as Slaves to Persians.
This is also how the Jews got a reputation as slave dealers.
 
What a load of bullsh*t is this?
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 20:44
Originally posted by John Lenon

If the word Slavs comes from Slaves, then Germans comes from germs,  Sweden from sweat, Turc from turd (sorry, just linquistic example of word-game) ??? ConfusedLOL

Who don't know the origin of term Slav can just look in:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs


Mockery is best made in comprehension of the subject of ridicule.

I did not refer to the origin of the word "Slav", but the origin of the word "slave", and by no means do I imply that "Slav" originates from "slave", though I do suggest that the vice versa might be possible. Of course, I know the subtle distinction can be hard to detect in a thread like this.
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  Quote Philhellene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 18:55
Originally posted by axeman

The term Russia appeared only in 16th century AFAIK, before that "Russia" didn't existed.
 
You`re wrong. At least the travellers of XV century Ambrogio Contarini and Giosofat Barbaro use the term "Russia" in their books.
 
Originally posted by Anton

As for the topic, official Russian historiography accepts that Varjags (as they are called in Russia) were not high in number and were sort of war aristocracy in Novgorod and Kiev and later in other cities.
 
Even in the time of first Kievan princes Rus conquered the territories of some Finno-Ugric tribes. By the way, (if Nestor is right and Rurik was a real man), Rurik was invited not only by Slavic tribes but also by Chuds and Veses.
 
Originally posted by Anton

But starting from Ivan IV Rus starts to add territories not inhabited with slavs.
 
 
As for Rurik and foundation of Russian state there are no any official versions but only some theories.
 
Originally posted by rider

Yep, official Estonian historiography also accepts that Novgorod was sieged by the Varjags who then moved on to Kiev, conquered it and founded their state.
 
That means something is wrong with official Estonian historiography.
 
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

For example, Adolf Hitler once said that The Russians were a mass-born slaves who always feel the need of a master. And thereare alot of examples in history that demonstrate the Russians were slaves  in Middle Age,in near Age and in modern age as well..Even today most of the sex slaves worldwide come from Russia.
 
Interesting point. And insane as well.
 
Originally posted by Anton

I don't want to comment this but may be moderators take a look at this post?
 
But he`s a moderator. Smile


Edited by Philhellene - 02-Sep-2006 at 19:58
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 21:05
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

For example, Adolf Hitler once said that The Russians were a mass-born slaves who always feel the need of a master. And thereare alot of examples in history that demonstrate the Russians were slaves  in Middle Age,in near Age and in modern age as well..Even today most of the sex slaves worldwide come from Russia.


That is a great tragedy brought upon the Russians both by their cold-hearted exploitation of their own kin as well as by foreigners.

Claiming that the Slavs are inherently induced to enslavement is preposterous though, these things depend solely on the social context in which they exist. Likewise, you could also say the Slavic peoples are inherently induced to being rulers, as they have been among the most influential peoples in the world in the centuries of late.
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