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The Battle of Thermopylae

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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle of Thermopylae
    Posted: 21-Dec-2004 at 00:38
 

Interesting how the one thing The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World have in common seems to be Europe connection.

 

 

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  Quote Murph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2004 at 09:58

Originally posted by Slickmeister

What would have happened if D-Day failed? Think of that

germany would have been NUKED a while later

so, in an abstract way of looking at it, losing D-Day was the best thing that ever happened to Germany



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  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 23:15
Originally posted by Yiannis

You're right about people forgetting Platea. I mean it was the biggest (in numbers) battle. The Greeks were never before (or after) able to present on the battleground an 100,000 strong army from all over Greece. Mardonious 250,000 strong army was anihilated and very few managed to return to Asia.

People tend to believe that the outcome of the battle was pre-determined, but anyone who knows a little history will see that there was a fine line between defeat & victory for the two sides. Politics would also play a significant part.

Another battle that is even more forgotten is the battle of Mycale (same date as Platea) where the Greek fleet destroyed the Persian one thus ending Persian threat to Greek islands. Anyone care to talk about it?

 

Actually no:  Greeks: 110 thousand, Persians: 79 thousand (even Herodotus says they were 120 thousand- remember Xerxes left after salamis, partly to deal with unrest back home in Ionia and Babylon).

But modern research shows that Persia was outnumbered.  By the way, with regards to other posts here, not only Thespians and Spartans remained at Thermopylae following Greek treachery but also hundreds of Thebans not allied to Persia.

I hope I don't sound too harsh and critical, b/c it isn't my intention.



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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 07:48

Originally posted by Faran

  , Persians: 79 thousand

Source please?

I didn't mention the 4000 Thebans because they surrendered almost immediatelly and didn't take part in the final battle.

The rest of the Greeks didn't walked out, they retreated to avoid encirclement by a superior force.

PS: No offence taken

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  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 19:09
SO faran, your saying the PErsians were outnumbered? Can you give me a source for that b/s?
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 06:32

It's not b/s. Some historians, evaluate the ability of the Persians to maintain a sizable force and come up with numbers as low as this for the Platea battle. Others (with whom I also agree) support otherwise since they estimate that the farmlands of Macedonia and Thessaly could support much larger amount of troops.  More over the number of Greeks (110K) is also debated.

But these are historical and scientific arguments not b/s!

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  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 23:56

again

give me a source.

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  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 22:19
Originally posted by Christscrusader

give me a source.

Burn claims there to have been 70 thousand Persian infantry and 9 or so thousand cavalry.  Herodotus himself says that only the 120 thousand best Persians were left to fight at Plataea after Xerxes left (but he doesn't mention immortals), but we all know about his accuracy. 

Besides, it is extremely unlikely that the Immortals would have been at Plataea since the King needed them back home, as recalcitrant satrapies were areas of danger after the defeat at Salamis, Ionia in particular.  If they didn't cross the Hellespont with Xerxes, they would have been with Artabazus who had to crush Greek rebellions.

It would have been most stupid to leave the immortals at Plataea when much more vital interests were at stake.

With regards to the other 30 thousand that Burn deducts, just consider the situation.  The Persians had lost their navy and thus their supply line, and they had trouble in Asia for which troops would be needed.  After Salamis, Xerxes did indeed face a rebellion similar to that which his father faced at the beginning of his reign, and I don't think he would have been as effective as his father in such a situation.

And Mardonius would not have contradicted the omens that the attacking side would lose and attack the greeks, out of concern for their growing numbers, if he outnumbered them.  True, the Greeks would have had quite a reputation for warfare by now, but remember Mardonius finally had the chance to fight a battle on his own terms, and with cavalry, and in my opinion had reason to expect victory.

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  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 22:22
Originally posted by Yiannis

 the number of Greeks (110K) is also debated.

 

I did not know it was debated, I apologize for not knowing.  Of course, 1, 800 Thespians, according to Herodotus , were unarmed, meaning the Greeks would have numbered 108, 200 according to Herodotus.  I don't know what the Thespians were there to do, cheer the others on??  They would have just wasted resources.

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  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 22:26
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by Faran

  , Persians: 79 thousand

Source please?

I didn't mention the 4000 Thebans because they surrendered almost immediatelly and didn't take part in the final battle.

The rest of the Greeks didn't walked out, they retreated to avoid encirclement by a superior force.

PS: No offence taken

 

By Greek treachery I was talking about the traitor who showed the Persians how to surround the Greeks, I know the rest were sent away in consideration for their lives.

Also,

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2004 at 15:45
Originally posted by Faran

I know the rest were sent away in consideration for their lives.

well, it's quite common to send home much needed troops before a major battle...just notice that others would call that "running away"...

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  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 19:26
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Faran

I know the rest were sent away in consideration for their lives.

well, it's quite common to send home much needed troops before a major battle...just notice that others would call that "running away"...

It wouldn't have been flight though, since they were so insignificant numerically, so there would be little point in keeping all of the soldiers. 

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2005 at 13:21

well, disbanding soldiers "in considderation of their lives." don't you notice anything strange in this statement? and when again in history did a general disband troops just before battle? there's not a single strategical reason to do so. there was also no battle after thermopylae, so what where those soldiers doing while Athens got pillaged?

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  Quote Herodotus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2005 at 17:48

I would add Manzikert, Lepanto, Salamis, Yorktown, Jutland, Gettysburg, 1st Battle of the Marne, Tannenburg, Phillipii, Seige of Vienna (final seige by Turks)

Amoungst others-mostly im just bored...

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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 00:40

The battle if Thermopylae was ment to give time for the Athenians to evacuate to Salamis. Not really a demonstration of courage. The most significant battle in history was The Battle of Salamis. The engagement of 300-350 Greek Triremes and 700 "Persian" triremes. (mostly, Phoenician, Ionian, Egyption, ).

 
Some say the Persians lost the battle...not really, if anything the Phoenician, Ionian, and Egyptions lost (and other nations as well) against the Greeks.


Edited by Darius of Parsa - 05-Oct-2007 at 00:44
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  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 01:05
Darius you are right about it not being the most decisive battle in history, but not a demonstration of courage? I do not believe it was stupidity - they achieved the goal of holding the Persians back for a few days, and did it in a brave and courageous fashion.
Also, what do you mean that the Persians didn't lose the battle of Salamis? Are you saying that the ships weren't actually Persian, but were Phoenician/Ionian/Egyptian? Well, one, this was not the case. And two, if it was, the force was a Persian, under a Persian leader, on an invasion commissioned by the Persians.
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 01:22
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa

The battle if Thermopylae was ment to give time for the Athenians to evacuate to Salamis. Not really a demonstration of courage.
 
It is beyond ludicrous to assert that the Battle of Thermopylae, where 300 Spartans and allied soldiers stood against an overwhelmingly superior force and died to the last man, is not a demonstration of courage. I would be interested to see how you justify such a claim.
 
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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 05:38
Yes you are right about that but the sailors were the main contributors to a sea battle at that time. The ship was not about grappeling an enemy ship and using troops to take over the ship, but to ram her broadside or ram off her oars.
 
The Battle of Thermopylae was rather to keep the Persians at bay


Edited by Darius of Parsa - 05-Oct-2007 at 05:40
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  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 06:00
Yes. The Persian command formulated the battle plan and synthesised the tactics. The sailors executed them. Plus, even if the sailors weren't truly "Persian" (let's not go all ethnicity please), they were subjects of the Persian Empire (most). In addition to this, it was the Persian command who fell into the initial trap - which was the first step to defeat. They were tricked by a Greek "traitor" (not actually), and were sprung. The Persians lost the Battle of Salamis.

'Rather' to keep the Persians at bay? That's precisely what Ako and I said, and yourself earlier.

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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 06:06

Okay I agree, but ethnicity was an important part in the Persian army and the Persian Empire itself. Think if you were Greek (Ionian) fighting your brothers on the opposite side. Would you really want to execute your captain's (who was Persian) goals?



Edited by Darius of Parsa - 05-Oct-2007 at 06:06
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