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The Hindu tradition of Sati
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kajdom View Drop Down
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Posts: 28 		  Quote kajdom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Hindu tradition of Sati
    Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 13:46
Vivek @ I have a classmate from India and she told me women aren't free that much you are saying. At first I thought she is from an arabian country and has a muslim religious family then I found out she is indian.   they are under control of the grands people of their family that decide what they have to do. In many cases they are forced by family such as choosing husband, having a job ,etc. Of course, All Indian families are not like that But a large percentage of them that follow traditional lifestyle strict their women. 

Edited by kajdom - 03-Oct-2006 at 14:19
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Gross improper representation of facts ! Hinduism is the only religion in the world where the Godesses are more powerfull than the Gods. In india women are not hidden away in Burkhas, they are free & liberated, since ancient times.  
 
Our God is neither he nor she.So Islam is only religion in the world where the asexuals are more powerfult than others.Big smile
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 15:13
Originally posted by Tipu Sultan

please sir dont be biased and distort the history.sati was practiced in india from time immerorial even before the arrival of the muslims.hindu women(especially of the upper caste) were considered as literal slaves of their husbands who had no independent existance of their own without their husbands so when the husband died they use to die along with him in most cases they were forced by their inlaws
 
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Gross improper representation of facts ! Hinduism is the only religion in the world where the Godesses are more powerfull than the Gods. In india women are not hidden away in Burkhas, they are free & liberated, since ancient times.  
 
Vivek, I dont think you answered Tipu claim. You just decided to dodge it aside and throw a cake for a cake.
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Posts: 1027 		  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 17:40
Originally posted by kajdom

Vivek @ I have a classmate from India and she told me women aren't free that much you are saying. 


I think I must intervene here. Although I must admit I had completly forgot about this thread I have to add something here.

It isn't  in hinduism for a woman to be treated less than a man. If women arn't free it isn't through religious obligations, it is cultural ones. Is Santa Claus part of Christianity or part of current mordern culture in the Christian world?
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 18:57
Originally posted by Anujkhamar

Originally posted by kajdom

Vivek @ I have a classmate from India and she told me women aren't free that much you are saying. 


I think I must intervene here. Although I must admit I had completly forgot about this thread I have to add something here.

It isn't  in hinduism for a woman to be treated less than a man. If women arn't free it isn't through religious obligations, it is cultural ones. Is Santa Claus part of Christianity or part of current mordern culture in the Christian world?
 
Agree
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Posts: 271 		  Quote Tipu Sultan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 21:23
Vivek, I dont think you answered Tipu claim. You just decided to dodge it aside and throw a cake for a cake.

well if you insist.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/in3.htm


Women in Indo-Aryan Societies

Aryan-Vaishnavism (Hinduism) is the most oppressive system on record in its suppression of women. From conception to death, woman had to suffer in uncountable ways (details after the basic section) :
  • Child Marriage - Girls are to be married when 5 years old !
  • Dowry - Vedas prescribe this pracitice
  • Bride-Burning - if the dowry is insufficient
  • No Property
  • Mass Wife-Burning (Jauhar) - Often 100s are burnt at a time.
  • Widow-Burning (Sati) - Sanctioned by the Vedas, Puranas, practiced by Krishna's wives, it still continues.



< IndoPaedia Home >
< Socio Indigo Home >

The basic section ends here. The advanced section follows below. Detailed analysis of the features given above are presented with references. Copyright: No copyright attaches to any of the material at IndoPaedia. You may freely distribute this or any other IndoPaedia document in part or in whole via email/gopher/www/internet/print etc. The IndoPaedia home is at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/ where much more information on India is available.



Women in Indo-Aryan Society

Table of Contents

1. Girls

1.1 FEMALE INFANTICIDE

Female infanticide arose from the general Vedic attitude towards women. The large dowries prescribed by the Vedas (see the section of dowries below) meant that a girl was seen as a burden. The woman who gave birth to a daughter was ashamed, and much stigma attached to a lady who only gae birth to daughters. Hence infanticide arose as a convenient way of getting rid of the burden.

Holy Aryan texts sanction this custom:

"Tasmat striyam jatam parasyanti ut pumamsam haranti"
" Hence they rejet a female child when born, and take up a male."
-- [ Taitt. Samh. VI.5.10.3 ] [ Muir I 26 ]
A recent U.N. report said that up to 50 million girls and women were missing from India's population, the reslut of systematic discrimination extending to the abortion of female fetuses. [ Verma 12.8.97 ] In 1921 there were more than 97 women for every 100 men in India. Seventy years later, the number dropped to 92.7 [ Verma 12.8.97 ]

1.2 CHILD-MARRIAGE

Child marriage of daughters 5-6 y old was common due to the custom of dowry and to avoid scandals [ Nand 17 ] [ Basham 167-8 ] [ Yadav 70 ] [ Altekar 16 ] [ Banerjee 70 ]. Lawbooks prescribe that the best partner for a man in one-third his age. Thus a man 18 year old should marry a girl 6 years old! -
" A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl of eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would otherwise be impeded, he must marry sooner." [ Manu IX.94 ]
This was meant to prevent any scandals. Narada states that some of the defects to be avoid

cont...............in the above mentioned link
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Posts: 605 		  Quote dirtnap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 21:44
To try and disassociate the act of Sati by saying it is now merely a cultural phenomona is absurd. Just because you finally denounce a long standing practice does not mean you are absolved of the responsibility to re-educate.

It is now obvious that these communities are trying to do more in the way of teaching their followers and that is a very positive direction.













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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 10:20
picture of sati, shows it acceptance amongst the
ruling British eliteThe British Library: Foster 165; print showing custom of sati, 1815 
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Posts: 605 		  Quote dirtnap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 19:49
Ironic that the last person to be burned at the stake in England before being outlawed is reported to have occured in 1789 and the attire in this animation seems to suggest late 18 to 19 century.










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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 03:24
Originally posted by kajdom

Vivek @ I have a classmate from India and she told me women aren't free that much you are saying. At first I thought she is from an arabian country and has a muslim religious family then I found out she is indian.   they are under control of the grands people of their family that decide what they have to do. In many cases they are forced by family such as choosing husband, having a job ,etc. Of course, All Indian families are not like that But a large percentage of them that follow traditional lifestyle strict their women. 


That's not restricted to females but to everybody including the males. It's the family system. I may take decisions of millions of dollars in office but I don't take the decisions at my house, the parents do that. I can go against them, no body can stop me, but I don't want to, I prefer continuin with the family system.

This situation is changing with the demise of the joint families & rise of the nuclear family, but the older system is better.
PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 03:43
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by Tipu Sultan

.hindu women(especially of the upper caste) were considered as literal slaves of their husbands who had no independent existance of their own without their husbands so when the husband died they use to die along with him in most cases they were forced by their inlaws
 
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Gross improper representation of facts ! Hinduism is the only religion in the world where the Godesses are more powerfull than the Gods. In india women are not hidden away in Burkhas, they are free & liberated, since ancient times.  
 
Vivek, I dont think you answered Tipu claim. You just decided to dodge it aside and throw a cake for a cake.


Cok gec I didn't try to answer his question because it didn't need an answer. Am I expected to defend myself agaisnt every fancy theory that is brought up by anybody. Tipu is an honourable member who (probably  because his avataar is tipu claims to know more about the original tipu than the original tipu himself). He is merely making a theory, ask him to back it up with evidence.

Still Cok since you have brought up the subject, I must reply to you, since you are logical.

Let tipu read the Ramayan, Mahabharat, Bhagvad Geeta etc..., notice the deaths of all the kings, their soldiers etc...& then tell the forum what happened to the women, why they all continued to live after the deaths of their husbands.

Also please ask him to study the Indian literature, tradition etc.. come up with his theory on why in India the Gods are considered less powerfull than the Godesses. Why are the godesses more worshipped than the gods  ?

I can go on & on with the list of questions for tipu, but he would not answer them. He has still not answered any of my questions on the tipu thread.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 04:11
  • Child Marriage - Girls are to be married when 5 years old !

This was not an old practice, It was a fallout of the muslim invasion, where any good looking girl ran the risk of being kidnapped by the muslims. Her being married offered more protection & attachemnt to her.
  • Dowry - Vedas prescribe this pracitice 
  • The vedas don't
This is a bad system which sprang up in modern era, biut has no religious sanction & is not mentioned anywhere in the scriptures. But admit it is a bad system, there are laws against it & it is being wiped out socially too.

It was originally designed as a system where the girl would be given gifts, some criminal elements twist it. Won't there be criminals everywhere ?

Unlike the practice of triple talak in muslims where a man can simple say talak three times & destroy the women or the hudood law where a raped muslim women has to proveide four male only eyewitnesses to prove her rape. imagine what the judge will ask the four men when they say they sat silently while the woman was being raped !!!! Other wise the raped women is herself chargend with adultery!!

The system of giving gifts to a woman be her family is at least better tha the muslim system of buying the women with the mehr ? Sorry, I don't want to offend any muslims, but this is the only rational analogy I can derive from based on Tipu's theory above.

  • Bride-Burning - if the dowry is insufficient
Criminals will be there anywhere, what is important is that we recognise them as criminals & prosecute them. But then this occurs in the indian muslims as well.
  • No Property
Who said they have no property. Ask tipu to read the indian Laws. Also a great proportion of Indians follow the Matriarchial system

Mass Wife-Burning (Jauhar) - Often 100s are burnt at a time
Jauhar is not a sucide done by the women alone. It is mass sucide by both the men & women to avoid being captured alive, raped, enslaved & forcibly converted to muhamedanism by the muslims.

So far as the women are concerned it is a sucide performed by the Indian women & children (both male & female), when their forced capture & rape & forcible conversion to muhamedanism by Muslims is too iminent & obvious & there is nothing that can stop this.

This need not be restricted to 100s there have been instances when more thatn 20 thousand women have burnt themselves to death on a single instance.

Jauhar is not done by women alone. It simultaneously involves aothe preactice. All the able bodied men (& women who can fight) take a religious bath, worship their family God for the last time in their life, then wear saffron cloths, open the gates of their palace or fort & storm out to fight the muslims too death.

  • Widow-Burning (Sati) - Sanctioned by the Vedas, Puranas, practiced by Krishna's wives, it still continues.
It is not sanctioned by vedas, it's growth is a direct corollary to the mslim invasion to prevent the women from being usurped by the muslims & where does it continue ?
And
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Originally posted by Vivek Sharma


Let tipu read the Ramayan, Mahabharat, Bhagvad Geeta etc..., notice the deaths of all the kings, their soldiers etc...& then tell the forum what happened to the women, why they all continued to live after the deaths of their husbands.
 
The four wives of that heroic son of Sura ascended the funeral pyre and were consumed with the body of their lord. All of them attained to those regions of felicity which were his. The son of Pandu burnt the body of his uncle together with those four wives of his, using diverse kinds of scents and perfumed wood. As the funeral pyre blazed up, a loud sound was heard of the burning wood and other combustible materials, along with the clear chant of Samans and the wailing of the citizens and others who witnessed the rite. After it was all over, the boys of the Vrishni and Andhaka races, headed by Vajra, as also the ladies, offered oblations of water to the high-souled hero.
 
-Book16..Mahabharata
 
 
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 05-Oct-2006 at 04:21
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 04:24
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma


  • Widow-Burning (Sati) - Sanctioned by the Vedas, Puranas, practiced by Krishna's wives, it still continues
It is not sanctioned by vedas, it's growth is a direct corollary to the mslim invasion to prevent the women from being usurped by the muslims & where does it continue ?
 
It's not sanctioned by the Veda - the Veda was written by the people of "ancient Pakistan" and did not contain such ritualistic sacrifices - these were incorporated into later Hindu texts like the Mahrabharata. 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 05-Oct-2006 at 04:25
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posts: 271 		  Quote Tipu Sultan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 09:41
well vivek blames all that is bad in hinduism(more correctly)brahminism as a result of the  muslimsSmile.

well i have read the bible-the old and the new testament and seen the mahabaratha and read the story of ramayna and to answer his questions.


Let tipu read the Ramayan, Mahabharat, Bhagvad Geeta etc..., notice the deaths of all the kings, their soldiers etc...& then tell the forum what happened to the women, why they all continued to live after the deaths of their husbands.

first of all there were no muslims at the time of mahabharath or ramayna. if a husband died and the woman did not commit sati(which is highly unlikely)as she was forced to commit sati.
 in case she did not the brother in law of the woman would rape her and then she had to shave her head and go and live in temples serving as prostitutes of brahmin preists.this practice is still followed in the indian state of kerala where the nambudri brahmin preists have these women as their slaves.


Also please ask him to study the Indian literature, tradition etc.. come up with his theory on why in India the Gods are considered less powerfull than the Godesses. Why are the godesses more worshipped than the gods  ?

to be frank i have no information about this.
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If you have no information on this than read it. their was no practice of forced sati in the pre muslim period.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 08:20
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Cok gec I didn't try to answer his question because it didn't need an answer.
 
The problem here is not that you didn't answer his claim. Instead, you decided to step it aside and attack another religion. Though you are allowed to criticize a religion (at least here), I raised the issue so the focus can be brought back to answering the presented claim of Tipu in this thread instead of transforming it to attack-defend two religions clash.


Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Let tipu read the Ramayan, Mahabharat, Bhagvad Geeta etc..., notice the deaths of all the kings, their soldiers etc...& then tell the forum what happened to the women, why they all continued to live after the deaths of their husbands.

Also please ask him to study the Indian literature, tradition etc.. come up with his theory on why in India the Gods are considered less powerfull than the Godesses. Why are the godesses more worshipped than the gods  ?

I can go on & on with the list of questions for tipu, but he would not answer them. He has still not answered any of my questions on the tipu thread.
 
All fair claims and good questions I must say.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 03:07
Dear Cok,

Why I stress so much on questions is that He won't  answer one. He will just sidetrack the issue &  come up with somethng else. he has still not answered any of my quustions so far. he claims to know more about the original tipu than the original tipu hemself.

After these first set of questions has been answered, I am ready with the next set of questions from the references cited by him.
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