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beorna
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Topic: Baltic Crusades Posted: 30-Dec-2013 at 08:10 |
When the order established his rule in Prussia, Poland was a widely weak and fragmented country. This changed during the 14th century and especially after the Union with Lithuania. So both became competitors.
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opuslola
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Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 16:56 |
For all of the previous postings, I would just like to ask everyone, this question;
Just who/whom designated the population of this part of the world as being composed of "pagans?" Just what was the beliefs of the population that separated them from Roman Catholicism?
In other words, what is the "evidence?" Let us just consider the usage of pagan terms for the days of the week? In Francais, they are Lundy, Mardi, Mercrudi, etc.! That is the Lundi.Lundy equals the day of the Moon, Mardi, equals the day of Mars, and next is the day of Mercury! All of these are so called "pagan" in nature. As are the months of the year, like January equals the month of Janus, March equals the month of Mars, etc., all pagan terms!
How about Thursday, which equals "Thor's Day, or Wednesday which equals Winds/Vinds day, or Friday which equals "Freya's Day, and Saturday which equals Saturn's Day, etc. !
Why all of these approved terms are pagan! Are they not?
How about Saint Bacchus?
Ron
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beorna
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Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 17:37 |
BTW, Wednesday derived from Wotan or exactly from an older wodnesdaeg.
I am not sure what you mean, of course is the christian belief, the european culture filled with pagan relicts. But different to the crusaders, who supported the roman-catholic confession, the Balts did not worship the mosaic god, the holy spirit and Jesus, but worshiped the Pruzzian gods. Their names are known by the reports of christian scholars, allthough not all reported are accepted as historic. Some of the pruzzian gods appear as well in other baltic religions.
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opuslola
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Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 17:51 |
Dear Bear, of you mean some religion like Mithra, etc., then you are only looking at a double/doppelganger of Jesus!
Ron
Edited by opuslola - 01-Jan-2014 at 17:52
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beorna
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Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 04:36 |
The Baltic religion is independent from Mithra or its Roman version Mithras. And allthough there are some parallels and maybe even some influence on Christianity, both religions seem to have different origins.
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opuslola
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Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 21:34 |
So Bear, just what was the religion of the area before the crusades? Just what heathen god did they worship"??
Regards, Ron
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beorna
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Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 15:04 |
a lot is not known and when, then mostly by christian scholars. Like other indo-european people they seem to have had three major gods, Perkunas, Patrimpo and Patollo. While Perkunas was probably the god of thunder, Patrimpo seem to have had relations with water. Patollo may have been the god of the dead. But that's all not very certain.
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opuslola
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Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 20:09 |
My dear bear, the names you listed could certainly stand for 1. the Father, 2. the Son, and 3. the Holy Ghost? Can this be denied?
Ron
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opuslola
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Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:45 |
As far as I know there has been no evidence of this battle ever fought!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ice
Regards,
Ron
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beorna
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Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 06:28 |
Originally posted by opuslola
My dear bear, the names you listed could certainly stand for 1. the Father, 2. the Son, and 3. the Holy Ghost? Can this be denied?
Ron |
Hardly, only if you accept, that Odin/Thor/Tyr (Wotan, Thunaer/Donar, Ziu/Saexnet) or Jupiter, Juno, Minerva (Jupiter, Mars, Janus) or Osiris, Isis, Hoprus etc are this, too.
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beorna
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Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 06:35 |
Originally posted by opuslola
As far as I know there has been no evidence of this battle ever fought!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ice
Regards,
Ron |
No, there is no doubt, that these battle was fought, just the size and the importance of these battle is questioned or at least discussed.
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Domen
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Posted: 08-Feb-2014 at 17:53 |
Regarding the Teutonic Order in the Land of Bors (Burzenland) in Hungary - they were there for 15 years: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32762&PID=700911#700911http://historum.com/showthread.php?p=1703187?postcount=523
Edited by Domen - 08-Feb-2014 at 17:56
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Domen
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Posted: 08-Feb-2014 at 18:04 |
to participate in a crusade which was not as risky as the crusades in the near east. |
I wouldn't say the Prussian crusade was less risky. I own a book "Państwo Zakonu Krzyżackiego w Prusach. Władza i Społeczeństwo." ("The State of the Teutonic Order in Prussia. The Authorities and the Society") and on one page authors of this book provide an estimate of how many Brother-Knights, highest-ranking members of the Order, were killed during the circa 55 years of the conquest of Prussia. If I remember correctly (late I will try to find this page - even though the book is 500 pages long so it won't be easy - and check it one more time), that number was 1300. And please note that the number of Brother-Knights never exceeded few hundreds at any given point in time, especially in that early period (1200s). The Order was able to eventually conquer Prussia largely thanks to help of crusaders from all of Europe, German states and Polish states. Another factor which enabled that was the network of strongholds and castles, which allowed them to control territory even when they were suffering defeats in battles. The Order learned how to construct castles on an "industrial scale" already during its presence in the Holy Land. Later they practiced fortification-building also in Burzenland (even though King Andrew forbade them to construct with use of stone). King Andrew forbade them to construct of stone / brick, but they didn't observe that rule entirely (in some cases they broke that prohibition). This was one of reasons why they were expelled.
Edited by Domen - 08-Feb-2014 at 18:10
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opuslola
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Posted: 28-Feb-2014 at 17:35 |
First of all! Have any of you ever looked at the attire worn by these supposed Knights?
Does it not mean anything to you? Since I am into etymology, I can instantly see a connection!
Can you?
Well after a pause, I will conjecture that the word "Teuton\Teutonic", means just what it sounds like in English, that is "Two Tone!"!!!
Hey guys! Their colours were "White and Black!", thus "Two Tones"/ "Teutones!", etc.!
Of course all of you can just dismiss this with the "royal wave of the wand!" LOL
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Sidney
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Posted: 28-Feb-2014 at 18:07 |
And there was me, thinking it was because they sang in harmonics!
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beorna
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Posted: 04-Mar-2014 at 03:36 |
Originally posted by Domen
to participate in a crusade which was not as risky as the crusades in the near east. |
I wouldn't say the Prussian crusade was less risky. I own a book "Państwo Zakonu Krzyżackiego w Prusach. Władza i Społeczeństwo." ("The State of the Teutonic Order in Prussia. The Authorities and the Society") and on one page authors of this book provide an estimate of how many Brother-Knights, highest-ranking members of the Order, were killed during the circa 55 years of the conquest of Prussia. If I remember correctly (late I will try to find this page - even though the book is 500 pages long so it won't be easy - and check it one more time), that number was 1300. And please note that the number of Brother-Knights never exceeded few hundreds at any given point in time, especially in that early period (1200s). The Order was able to eventually conquer Prussia largely thanks to help of crusaders from all of Europe, German states and Polish states. Another factor which enabled that was the network of strongholds and castles, which allowed them to control territory even when they were suffering defeats in battles.
The Order learned how to construct castles on an "industrial scale" already during its presence in the Holy Land. Later they practiced fortification-building also in Burzenland (even though King Andrew forbade them to construct with use of stone). King Andrew forbade them to construct of stone / brick, but they didn't observe that rule entirely (in some cases they broke that prohibition). This was one of reasons why they were expelled.
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It was pope Urban IV who was whinning about the death of more than 1000 order members during the 2nd Prussian revolt. The question is, whether they were order knights or order priests. Correct is, that the order faced several greater defeats, even during the 1st revolt. Because the number of order knights was allways small, it doesn't seem to me likely, that during the 55 years there died really 1300 knights. But even if, it would be just around 25 knights a years. To see whether my claim,that it was less risky is right, we would need figures from other crusades. Unfortunately do we have no exact numbers here. The only figure I have is from Sorokin, he estimates that French, English & Imperial German Crusaders lost a total of 3,600 in battle. - 1st C (1096-99): 400
- 2nd C (1147-49): 750
- 3rd C (1189-91): 930
- 4th C (1202-04): 120
- 5th C (1228-29): 600
- 7th C (1248-54): 700 But e.g. in the battle of hattin in 1187, so not during a crusade, the crusaders lost maybe up to 1000 knights.
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