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gcle2003
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Topic: What is the longest living civilization? Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 08:00 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
The MesoAmerican people still exist with strong links to their ancients, they should be considered among the longest living civillisations. |
That a people still exists is not the same thing as a civilisation still existing.
The civilisation in Central America today is not at all like the civilisation there a thousand years ago.
If you were simply going by the oldest continuously occupied political unit, then the oldest known is pretty certainly the city of Jericho. But again, today's civilisation there has nothing to do with the civilisation of 11,000 years ago (or whatever).
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perikles
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Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 10:49 |
Tell us one modern country that its current civilization has relation with 4000 years ago?
Greeks are not having relations, Indians also, Chinese etc.
Tell us one because in this way of thinking the modern civilizations are just come up from the sky. Nobody has relation with the old ones accordings to some posts here.
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Jeru
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Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 11:26 |
Originally posted by perikles
Tell us one modern country that its current civilization has relation with 4000 years ago?
Greeks are not having relations, Indians also, Chinese etc.
Tell us one because in this way of thinking the modern civilizations are just come up from the sky. Nobody has relation with the old ones accordings to some posts here.
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Actually it's a dead end, cause today's civilizations are the evolved form of the ancient ones, although i must admitt that the longest civilization with the less influence from other cultures and less modernized must be Chinese.
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 00:56 |
Originally posted by perikles
Tell us one modern country that its current civilization has relation with 4000 years ago?
Greeks are not having relations, Indians also, Chinese etc.
Tell us one because in this way of thinking the modern civilizations are just come up from the sky. Nobody has relation with the old ones accordings to some posts here.
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I beg to differ. India culture & religions is still the same as it was at least 7000 years ago, at the same place also.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 00:56 |
Originally posted by perikles
Tell us one modern country that its current civilization has relation with 4000 years ago?
Greeks are not having relations, Indians also, Chinese etc.
Tell us one because in this way of thinking the modern civilizations are just come up from the sky. Nobody has relation with the old ones accordings to some posts here.
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I beg to differ. India culture & religions is still the same as it was at least 7000 years ago, at the same place also. So many people defeated them militarily, but the culture is intact & prospering.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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gcle2003
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 04:45 |
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
Originally posted by perikles
Tell us one modern country that its current civilization has relation with 4000 years ago?
Greeks are not having relations, Indians also, Chinese etc.
Tell us one because in this way of thinking the modern civilizations are just come up from the sky. Nobody has relation with the old ones accordings to some posts here.
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No country today has the same civilisation that it had 1000 years ago, probably even 100 years ago.
I beg to differ. India culture & religions is still the same as it was at least 7000 years ago, at the same place also.
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But that's changing the subject. Culture and religion do not a civilisation make. Yes Hinduism is the same as it was a long time ago (I'm not so certain about that 7,000 years ago). But back then you didn't have Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists and Christians - and indeed secularists - making up a multi-religious society.
India's music is pretty ancient too. But it's literature certainly isn't. Rushdie and Seth aren't writing Vedic hymns. And its technology and its economy are certainly way way different.
Not too many people in ancient India spoke English, either, but now it's an official language. They didn't elect political leaders. I could go on, but on almost any count you can think of India's current civilisation is nothing like what it was even 100 years ago.
India today has much much more in common with the rest of the world than it does with its ancient past. And the same goes for every other country.
Edited by gcle2003 - 06-Sep-2006 at 04:47
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Aster Thrax Eupator
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 04:51 |
I would definately disagree with Greeks and Native Americans. The oldest living civilizations would almost definatley be peoples from Sub-Saharan africa and after them, Indians, Egyptians or Sumerians
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perikles
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 08:05 |
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
Originally posted by perikles
Tell us one modern country that its current civilization has relation with 4000 years ago?
Greeks are not having relations, Indians also, Chinese etc.
Tell us one because in this way of thinking the modern civilizations are just come up from the sky. Nobody has relation with the old ones accordings to some posts here.
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I beg to differ. India culture & religions is still the same as it was at least 7000 years ago, at the same place also. So many people defeated them militarily, but the culture is intact & prospering.
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Greeks spoke almost the same language, They have almost the same alphabet. We live in the same place. Whats the difference?
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gcle2003
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 13:31 |
Originally posted by perikles
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
Originally posted by perikles
Tell us one modern country that its current civilization has relation with 4000 years ago?
Greeks are not having relations, Indians also, Chinese etc.
Tell us one because in this way of thinking the modern civilizations are just come up from the sky. Nobody has relation with the old ones accordings to some posts here.
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I beg to differ. India culture & religions is still the same as it was at least 7000 years ago, at the same place also. So many people defeated them militarily, but the culture is intact & prospering.
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Greeks spoke almost the same language, They have almost the same alphabet. We live in the same place. Whats the difference? |
You have the internet? Last time I was in Athens I flew there in an aeroplane and I stayed at a hotel that served pretty good Bloody Marys. When my kids were at school there they watched TV and played soccer. I didn't see a single philosopher walking in the Academy. The citizens didn't meet in the Agora to decide on ostracism. And there was actually a national government for the WHOLE of Greece - Athens wasn't fighting Sparta, and no other cities were fighting each other either.
And so on. Socrates and Plato, brought back to life, wouldn't have known where they were or what was going on.
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perikles
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 04:36 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by perikles
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
Originally posted by perikles
Tell us one modern country that its current civilization has relation with 4000 years ago?
Greeks are not having relations, Indians also, Chinese etc.
Tell us one because in this way of thinking the modern civilizations are just come up from the sky. Nobody has relation with the old ones accordings to some posts here.
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I beg to differ. India culture & religions is still the same as it was at least 7000 years ago, at the same place also. So many people defeated them militarily, but the culture is intact & prospering.
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Greeks spoke almost the same language, They have almost the same alphabet. We live in the same place. Whats the difference? |
You have the internet? Last time I was in Athens I flew there in an aeroplane and I stayed at a hotel that served pretty good Bloody Marys. When my kids were at school there they watched TV and played soccer. I didn't see a single philosopher walking in the Academy. The citizens didn't meet in the Agora to decide on ostracism. And there was actually a national government for the WHOLE of Greece - Athens wasn't fighting Sparta, and no other cities were fighting each other either.
And so on. Socrates and Plato, brought back to life, wouldn't have known where they were or what was going on. |
You must be joking.
You refering to persons that lived 4000 years ago.
The issue is that maybe these people are of course not in life, And of course the way of living changed. BUT the principles, language, alphabet and the love of the nation are steady. Civilization is not only the people but is the beliefs and the principles. Accordin to you there are three generations of civilization. The ancient, medieval and modern. NO relation between all these. The principles we have now (Each nation) is no relation with the past. As i said came from the sky. From scratch.
As long as athns and Sparta This means that France Spain, Germany, China, Japan, Turkey and many other nations are TOTALLY different from their past because their state and borders have changed.
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perikles
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 04:38 |
In Which hotel you stayed? :)
sorry for the offtopic!
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gcle2003
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 09:59 |
Originally posted by perikles
Originally posted by gcle2003
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You have the internet? Last time I was in Athens I flew there in an aeroplane and I stayed at a hotel that served pretty good Bloody Marys. When my kids were at school there they watched TV and played soccer. I didn't see a single philosopher walking in the Academy. The citizens didn't meet in the Agora to decide on ostracism. And there was actually a national government for the WHOLE of Greece - Athens wasn't fighting Sparta, and no other cities were fighting each other either.
And so on. Socrates and Plato, brought back to life, wouldn't have known where they were or what was going on. |
You must be joking.
You refering to persons that lived 4000 years ago.
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Who would that be? If you mean Socrates and Plato you need to go and study either history or arithmetic.
The issue is that maybe these people are of course not in life, And of course the way of living changed. BUT the principles, language, alphabet and the love of the nation are steady. Civilization is not only the people but is the beliefs and the principles. Accordin to you there are three generations of civilization. The ancient, medieval and modern.
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I never said anything of the sort, and I don't assert that at all. What I do hold is that civilisations develop and change, most often through technological innovation, but also through artistic, literary, political and religious innovation. Those changes are frequently enough - though they may have been gradual - to say that there is now a different civilisation.
Apart from all the other things I mentioned, modern Greece is a nominally Christian country, though, as in most of the world it is not as Christian as it was.
To claim that the civilisation that exists in Greece today is the same civilisation that existed there in the ancient world, during the Roman and Byzantine empires, under the Ottomans, or even in the mid-nineteenth century is patently absurd as it would be to say it of any other country.
NO relation between all these. The principles we have now (Each nation) is no relation with the past. As i said came from the sky. From scratch.
As long as athns and Sparta This means that France Spain, Germany, China, Japan, Turkey and many other nations are TOTALLY different from their past because their state and borders have changed. |
Well, they are.
Edited by gcle2003 - 07-Sep-2006 at 09:59
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perikles
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 10:23 |
I know PLaton and Socrates better than you think. It is not 4000 but approx 2500. I misstyped that. So you make your point. The modern civilizations has not relation with rhe old ones.When we say the civilizations ae evolved that means that they are not the same with he ancient ones but there are some common points. I can't understand why you find difficult to accept this common sense
Edited by perikles - 07-Sep-2006 at 10:23
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Bulldog
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 14:38 |
Perikles your argument is severly flawed, Greeks today are not the same or a continuation of the ancient Hellenic people.
First there is the fact that the city states did not keep independance from the ancient times to today and the people were ruled by other powers who bought their culture, rule and also migrations to the area. Slavs, Romans, "Sea People's", Turks, Venetians, Geneoise, North Africans etc Then there's religion that was changed by Romans by force and so on.
The longest living civillization is probobly the Chinease, they have their language, religion, culture and were only ruled briefly by foreign powers.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Jeru
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 15:52 |
Well the greeks despite being ruled by other powers also kept their language and culture,i'll give them that.
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BigL
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 20:07 |
They did....?
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Odin
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 23:06 |
I see an Indocentrist crank has hijacked this thread. It is a FACT that cental Asian nomads migrated into Northern India as a result of the power vacuum resulting from the collapse of the Indis Valley civilization and that those nomads spoke Proto-Indo-Iranian.
Ugh, I'm sick of nationalist idiots making up BS to stroke thier big, fat egos. The "Europeans made the theory so it must be racist" nonsense is a idiotic logical fallacy.
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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
-Arnold J. Toynbee
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perikles
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 02:34 |
Well China was all the Time self ruled. On the other hand it is True that Greeks had many conquerors and foreign Dictators if i can say that. But as it mentioned we kept our language and many other characteristics.
Anyway very old civilizations are those in Africa like Masai. They are really old. Of course as a civilization, without wanted to consider them worthless (they are not) , it did't say much comparing with Greece, China and Egypt. Of course Japan has a really old and extraordinary civilization. What do you think of Japan. I don't know much and nobody is talking about it.
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 04:57 |
The oldest civilization with a practiced form of worship is not Hinduism. Hinduism is a European term applied in the 18th century to explain the complexity of the various systems of belief in India. Because there are som many. I believe the Dravidians(Dravidianism) is the oldest. Hinduism and even the Abrahamic religions are rooted in one way or another as well as all other major philosophies. Christianity,Islam etc. Try researching "The Vedas" and find out how mix Christianity and Sanatana Dharma(Hinduism) is.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 05:22 |
Originally posted by perikles
In Which hotel you stayed? :)
sorry for the offtopic! |
The Air France one named after a plane - the Caravel? That was in 1976.
My kids were at school there in '74-'75, but it was mostly their mother that went out to visit them.
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