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Atomic Japan

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Poll Question: Do you believe it was neccessary for Japan to be nuked at WW2?
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Atomic Japan
    Posted: 07-Jan-2007 at 13:54
Originally posted by Dan Carkner

I think people would be singing a different tune about morality if it was their family still poisoned by radiation. I suspect that many of the most hawkish americans would be pleading ignorance/leniency if *their* country's crimes were actually going to be punished in some way..




You are either deluded, ignorant of history, or both. Or you think that adopting such an absurd stance somehow makes you look "cool".



    
    

Edited by red clay - 07-Jan-2007 at 13:55
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  Quote Pero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 22:37
50-100 000 people died instantly when a bomb was dropped on a Hiroshima.  Whatever America says that there was no other way is bull.
I know Japan was very cruel during ww2, but what gives them (USA) the right to kill everything in their path.    
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  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 22:41
If the US wanted to kill everything in our path we would have nuked Tokyo. 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 22:46
Originally posted by Pero

50-100 000 people died instantly when a bomb was dropped on a Hiroshima.  Whatever America says that there was no other way is bull.
I know Japan was very cruel during ww2, but what gives them (USA) the right to kill everything in their path.    
 
 
 
While your asking questions, you might ask the Chinese what right they think the Japanese had to slaughter 250,000 in Nanking alone.
 
 


Edited by red clay - 10-Jan-2007 at 22:47
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  Quote Pero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 00:05
Originally posted by Adalwolf

If the US wanted to kill everything in our path we would have nuked Tokyo. 


They bombed tokyo before that with bombers.  Around 80 000 people were killed.
But that is beside the point.  USA wanted to try out the nuclear bomb and that was perfect opportunity.
In japan even today people are being born deformed.
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  Quote Pero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 00:07
Originally posted by red clay

 
 
While your asking questions, you might ask the Chinese what right they think the Japanese had to slaughter 250,000 in Nanking alone.
 
 


I didnt say what japan did was to be forgiven.  But that doesnt give the right for someone else to kill Innocent people by completely destroying their city. And killing everything in it.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 08:38
For all. Given that alot of diverse opinions raise varied emotional responses, let's keep from making things personal.  :)

Edited by Seko - 11-Jan-2007 at 08:39
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  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 15:27
Originally posted by Pero

Originally posted by Adalwolf

If the US wanted to kill everything in our path we would have nuked Tokyo. 


They bombed tokyo before that with bombers.  Around 80 000 people were killed.
But that is beside the point.  USA wanted to try out the nuclear bomb and that was perfect opportunity.
In japan even today people are being born deformed.


Well, the Japs shouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbor.

I'm still convinced dropping the bombs saved lives in the end, especially the lives of American serviceman, but also the lives of Japanese civilians.
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  Quote Pero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 02:49
what about the nuclear fallout.  I did say before that what japan did in ww2 was to forgive. 
But when dropping nuclear bomb, radiation stays there for around 10 000 years. 
Just before the end of the war, Russia declared war on japan, and china was on their side (pretty much the whole rest of the world).  The war would end soon anyway.  If they wanted to try the nuclear weapon they could bomb some military targets (where the massive japan army is located), not the civilian city.
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  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 03:00
Originally posted by Pero

what about the nuclear fallout.  I did say before that what japan did in ww2 was to forgive. 
But when dropping nuclear bomb, radiation stays there for around 10 000 years. 
Just before the end of the war, Russia declared war on japan, and china was on their side (pretty much the whole rest of the world).  The war would end soon anyway.  If they wanted to try the nuclear weapon they could bomb some military targets (where the massive japan army is located), not the civilian city.


Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate targets. I forget which, but I think one was a major port, and the other was a manufacturing center (is this correct?). I don't even know if people knew there was going to be nuclear fall-out when the bombs were dropped. Even if they did, the Japanese deserved ito be bombed after what they did at Pearl Harbor, Bataan, and especially Nanking.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 09:50
Originally posted by Adalwolf

Originally posted by Pero

what about the nuclear fallout.  I did say before that what japan did in ww2 was to forgive. 
But when dropping nuclear bomb, radiation stays there for around 10 000 years. 
Just before the end of the war, Russia declared war on japan, and china was on their side (pretty much the whole rest of the world).  The war would end soon anyway.  If they wanted to try the nuclear weapon they could bomb some military targets (where the massive japan army is located), not the civilian city.


Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate targets. I forget which, but I think one was a major port, and the other was a manufacturing center (is this correct?). I don't even know if people knew there was going to be nuclear fall-out when the bombs were dropped. Even if they did, the Japanese deserved ito be bombed after what they did at Pearl Harbor, Bataan, and especially Nanking.
 
 
 
Nagasaki was, I believe, the base or headquarters of, the Japanese 3rd Army.  Both cities were taken off the target list for conventional bombing, to be used for A bomb.
They in fact, had little knowledge of, or appreciation for the incredible power they were dealing with.  Remember, prior to 1941, fission was just theory, and even a lot of that did not yet exist.
I have always found it interesting how some are so willing to forgive Japan for causing a conflict that killed 20-30 million people, unleashed total warfare on millions more, deliberately attacked the US, which was a largely isolationist country at the time but when the monster they created turned on them, it's the US that's the bad guys.Confused
 


Edited by red clay - 13-Jan-2007 at 09:52
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  Quote Pero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 19:27
Did i say i was to forgive the japan for what they did.
Of course not.  But what us did with A bombs is wrong.  They knew what they were dealing with after the trinity test. 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 23:08
Originally posted by Pero

Did i say i was to forgive the japan for what they did.
Of course not.  But what us did with A bombs is wrong.  They knew what they were dealing with after the trinity test. 
 
 
 
 
They knew it worked,  that it cost [in todays dollars] 200 Billion to build,  that it could bring the war to an immediate halt and it would scare the crap out of the Soviets.  At the time thats all anyone really needed or wanted to know.
As for the scientific realities, no, they only knew that it would blow the crap out of everything within a square mile, the full effects of the fallout and radiation weren't yet known or fully appreciated.
 
 


Edited by red clay - 14-Jan-2007 at 23:08
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  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 00:34
Originally posted by Adalwolf


the Japanese deserved ito be bombed after what they did at Pearl Harbor, Bataan, and especially Nanking.

No , the Japanese civilians did not deserve to be killed. Let me ask you a question. Do you Adalwolf an American civilian deserve to be killed because of what America did and is still doing to so many countries? What you are saying gives the right to so many people in the world to kill you. Is that what you mean?

Originally posted by Kapikulu

A barbaric deed cannot be justified with the existence of another barbaric deed.

I completely agree with you Kapikulu.

Originally posted by Dan Carkner

I think people would be singing a different tune about morality if it was their family still poisoned by radiation. I suspect that many of the most hawkish americans would be pleading ignorance/leniency if *their* country's crimes were actually going to be punished in some way..

How very true Dan Carkner.
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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 09:07
Bin Laden attacked the twin towers to avenge for the Vietnam,god those Americans deserved it :)
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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 20:50
Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Adalwolf


the Japanese deserved ito be bombed after what they did at Pearl Harbor, Bataan, and especially Nanking.

No , the Japanese civilians did not deserve to be killed. Let me ask you a question. Do you Adalwolf an American civilian deserve to be killed because of what America did and is still doing to so many countries? What you are saying gives the right to so many people in the world to kill you. Is that what you mean?

Originally posted by Kapikulu

A barbaric deed cannot be justified with the existence of another barbaric deed.

I completely agree with you Kapikulu.

Originally posted by Dan Carkner

I think people would be singing a different tune about morality if it was their family still poisoned by radiation.  I suspect that many of the most hawkish americans would be pleading ignorance/leniency if *their* country's crimes were actually going to be punished in some way..

How very true Dan Carkner.
 
 
I believed quit a lot of "innocent" Japanese civilians back then were legitimated military targets. They supported the war, and they were guilty of sufferings their nation caused to others.
 
And yes, I also believed some "terrorist" attacks were justified in this logic. A cannon maker in the rear is as guilty as the cannoner in the front-line.   
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  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 22:55
Dream208, how can you call a child ''a canon maker in the rear'' ? Perhaps a politician can be called the ''canon maker in the rear'' but not civilians.
Do Chinese civilians deserve to be killed because of this (read below) ?

Tibet
In Tibet, hundreds of Tibetans have been incarcerated for peacefully expressing their political and religious beliefs. Conditions in prisons are reported to be dismal, with numerous accounts of torture and ill-treatment. In particular, PRC law enforcement officials have perpetrated violent acts against Tibetan women in detention centers and prisons. Buddhist nuns and lay women have been subject to torture or violent, degrading and inhuman treatment, including assault, rape and sexual abuse. In June 1994, one Tibetan nun died while in custody, reportedly as a result of a beating by guards. PRC authorities also have severely restricted religious practice; out of the 6,000 Buddhist monasteries that were destroyed by the PRC since its 1949 invasion of Tibet, only a few hundred have been rebuilt.
PRC policies, including population transfers of hundreds of thousands of Chinese into Tibet, threaten to make Tibetans a minority in their own land and to destroy Tibetans' distinct national, religious and cultural identity.



Using your own logic, I am sure that to justify what the Japanese did in Nanking, I can find many cruel things China has done in the past , but that is not rght, is it? What the Japanese did in Nanking can not be justified regardless of what the chinese had done before that. This apllies to any other instances such as the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.

Name a single country/nation in the world that has done absolutely nothing cruel.

What I am trying to say is by that logic of ''Japanese people desrved to be killed because of what they did here'' ''American people dserved to be killed because of what they did there'' ...etc, all the people in the world would deserve to be killed some way or another and there would be no end to the violence.
Let me quote Mahatma Ghandi again. An eye to an eye makes the whole world blind.

Edited by omshanti - 15-Jan-2007 at 22:57
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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 00:22
Yes, Tibetan people do have right to attack or even hate the Chinese citizens, given to the crime PRC committeed 40~50 years ago (Tough I wonder if ROC would do the same thing if they were defeated).
 
Chinese have never be aggressor toward Japan in their long relationship (unless you argued that Mongel Yuan was Chinese). Japan, on the other hand, have attempted to invade both China and Korea various time before (luckily, most Chinese dynasties were strong enough to deter Japanese).
 
So, there is no way could Japanese justify Nanking or other autrocity in China.
 
Do not bring out little Children as shield of adult's crimes. A child's death during the war is adult's burden to carry, especially when the said adult is the one who started the war.
 
When Japanese government decided to launch full out invasion to China at July 1937, they already forfeit the fates of children of Hiroshima and Nakasaki of 1945.
 
 
Chinese crimes would pay to those who deserve our apologies, but not Japanese Empire who committed Nanking.
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  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 03:05
Calm down, Dream208. Now that I have brought China in to the discussion you are being unable to read objectively.

1, We were discussing about a third country revenging instead of the actual victims.

2, I did not bring up children as shields, but only pointed out the fact that attacking civilians also means killing children.

3, I never justified what the Japanese did in China but only pointed out that if we use your own logic, every violent act in the world can be justified one way or another and there would be no end to the violence. I believe that a violent act can not be justified no matter what reason lies behind it.

4, What I was trying to say in my post was not ''who did this'' and ''who didn't do that'' between China and Japan, nor ''who has the right to revenge'' and '' who doesn't''. The whole point of my post which you seem to have missed was this (read the quote below).
Originally posted by omshanti

Name a single country/nation in the world that has done absolutely nothing cruel.

What I am trying to say is by that logic of ''Japanese people desrved to be killed because of what they did here'' ''American people dserved to be killed because of what they did there'' ...etc, all the people in the world would deserve to be killed some way or another and there would be no end to the violence.
Let me quote Mahatma Ghandi again. An eye to an eye makes the whole world blind.


Now, you are free to believe in your own logic of rights for revenge and continue arguing what the Japanese did and what the Chinese didn't , but please understand that this was not the point of my post.

Regarding your logic of revenge, my opinion is that people who have had unfair or cruel things done to them have every right to be angry towards the aggressors but they also have the choice whether to control the anger and stand above it or to be controlled by the anger and sink in to blindness. Nobody can take this choice from us humans.







Edited by omshanti - 16-Jan-2007 at 08:04
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 08:27
if USA wanted to show their power and threatens Japan why they drop 2?
This is a war crime. Isn't strange that USA has involved in so many wars and never has been accussed or punished for crimes against humans?
So leave the crap aside. USA wanted  to test the NUk and defeat for ever Japan.  No respect for human rights. If they want to destroy Japanese army why they through the nuk in two cities?
 
In that way I can't understand why USA is different from Nazi? Whatever nazi did to Europeans USA did to JApan. 
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