Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

tank questions

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
xristar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 05-Nov-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1028
  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: tank questions
    Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 06:57

It seems that there are some people here who have served in tanks, or know quite much of them.

Can someone explain to me the roles of the crewmembers of a tank?
I mean I know there's a driver, there's a radioman (?) next to him, there's a loader (apparently in the turret), and a gunner who aims and shots with the gun. But what exactly do these people do, and what happens when there are 5 crewmebers in a tank? Who of all these is the leader?
 
Ah, and another question, how many machineguns does a modern tank have? I think that the MG on the chassis that existed in WWII is no longer put on tanks. I assume there still must be the traditional AA MG on top of the turret (yes?) and is there some coaxial MG next to the gun? In a Tiger II model I have it doesn't have a coaxial MG.
Thanks in advance.

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
Back to Top
Exarchus View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 09:00
in most modern tanks, you have 4 crewmembers.

The commander. He is the officer commanding the other 3, he decides what's the general line the tank will follow. He tells where the tank goes and what it'll fire on, he is in charge of ordering the tank, without him the gunner could pick a target and the driver move toward another one (for example).

The gunner, that one is easy to describe he aims for the targets, and fires.

The driver, drives the tank lol.

The loader, most modern tanks haven't adopted an automatic reloader, so you have a 4th crew member taking the amution and load them in the gun manualy. Tanks with an automatic reloader have a crew of 3 (and are often shorter as a consequence.

Most tanks have one machine gun on the turret, some tanks have a coaxial machine gun next to the canon adding to the first one.


Edited by Exarchus - 26-Jul-2006 at 09:02
Vae victis!
Back to Top
Gundamor View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 568
  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 13:20
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/US_tank_doctrine.html

Thats a semi correct site. At least gives a general idea of American tankers and saves me time of typing
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 14:36

5 crew tank:

  1. driver
  2. machine gunner/radio (actually less radio than mg)
  3. loader
  4. gunner
  5. leader

The leader gives the orders. Something like:" Steer 270!. Full speed on!. Enemy At gun emplacement bearing 180! . Load HE!. Stop! Open fire!" (not very accurate, I admit, but I had an uncle who served as a gunner in a MkIV).

Ah, the loader was not sitting in the turret, he actually was under it.
Back to Top
xristar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 05-Nov-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1028
  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 04:45
thanks
Cezar, the '2.machine gunner/radio', which machinegun operates?

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
Back to Top
babyblue View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1174
  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 11:55
most tanks today DON'T have the fifth crew i.e: radio operator/machine gunner. That's more common in WW2 tanks.
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 12:21
Originally posted by xristar

thanks
Cezar, the '2.machine gunner/radio', which machinegun operates?
 
Right front MG on the glacis. He is sitting beside the driver.
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 12:27
Originally posted by babyblue

most tanks today DON'T have the fifth crew i.e: radio operator/machine gunner. That's more common in WW2 tanks.
 
Actually the Germans first appearead with a 5 crew tank. It was a better solution for WWII in terms of job assignement for tank crewmembers.
Modern tanks have much better equipment to do some of the jobs people did back then. It seems that the planned T-95 will have only 2 crewmen.
Back to Top
Gundamor View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 568
  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 13:10
Originally posted by Cezar

Originally posted by babyblue

most tanks today DON'T have the fifth crew i.e: radio operator/machine gunner. That's more common in WW2 tanks.


Actually the Germans first appearead with a 5 crew tank. It was a better solution for WWII in terms of job assignement for tank crewmembers.

Modern tanks have much better equipment to do some of the jobs people did back then. It seems that the planned T-95 will have only 2 crewmen.


The T-95 is a 3 man tank with no one in the turret. The americans are designing a 2 man tank but I dont think the funding will be there for it in the end for production.
    
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
Back to Top
Exarchus View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 07:26
Most modern tanks have a crew of 4 only. Just check their stats on the net.

Tanks with an automatic reloader reduced it to 3.

About machine gun and radio, about the Leclerc, the machine gun is operated from inside, it can be directly handled by the tank commander. Radio is replaced by digital datas (which are sent by radio-frequenced systems indeed, but it's not radio in the meaning used) and Wifi for close infantry.


Edited by Exarchus - 28-Jul-2006 at 07:28
Vae victis!
Back to Top
DukeC View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564
  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 02:52
As has been stated most modern MBTs have 4 members and MBTs with autoloaders have 3.
 
The driver is responsible obviously for driving the tank and is directed by the commander. He is also usually responsible for the mechanical maintenance of the tank and is assisted in this by the loader.
 
The loader loads whatever kind of round is requested by the commander.
 
The gunner engages targets usually under the direction of the tank commander who can also override the gunner using his own sight. The gunner also maintains the main and co-axial weapons.
 
The commander is responsible for the tactical employment of the tank, he decides where the tank goes and what it engages and looks for targets. He's usually responsible for maintaining the AA weapons on the turret roof also.
 
The loader, gunner and commander are located in the turret, and the driver is seperate in the hull front.
Back to Top
aghart View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 05-Sep-2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 232
  Quote aghart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 16:57
A 4 man crew is still the optimum  number. The loader tends to act as the radio operator as well.
 
The 3 man crew with an auto loader seems to be a good idea on paper but in practice poses a lot of problems.
 
I can only go on my experience as a tank crewman on Chieftain tanks in the British Army in Germany.  When going into "hides" ( a 3 tank troop disapperaing and hiding in a wood to avoid detection) radio communications needed to be maintained which meant a 24hr "radio watch". guards/sentrys had to be maintained in case of suprise attack, food preperation, vehicle maintenence and of course sleep, had to be sorted. there is no way in this world that a 3 man crew could have coped with all this.  Shedding a track is a common event which needs four men to fix, two men to physically move the track onto the sprocket, one to give instructions to the driver (as he can't see what's going on) and of course the driver himself. Now many armies would simply expect their tank crews to sit and wait for a repair team, British army tank crews can and do many repair and maintenence tasks themselves which in other armies would require specialist repair teams.
 
In most 3rd world conflicts where the action is over in just 24 or 48hrs then a 3 man crew might get away with it, but in any prolonged conflict 3 man tank crews would suffer badly.
 
The French Leclerc is a prime example, "replacement crews" would travel behind the tank regiments to provide "instant" "fresh" tank crews when required.  Anyone with any military experience (peacetime never mind real war) will tell you that that only certain thing is that these replacement crews will not be where they are supposed to be and the orginal crews will not be replaced when they are supposed to be. No pre war plan survives the the first shot fired!!  
 
 


Edited by aghart - 30-Jul-2006 at 17:07
Former Tank Commander (Chieftain)& remember, Change is inevitable!!! except from vending machines
Back to Top
DukeC View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564
  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 18:34
The Soviets introduced the autoloader and 3 man MBT crews due to a shortage of qualified personel. Although(or maybe because) the Soviet army was huge it had serious problems holding onto experienced troops. Most conscripts did their 2 year service then got out of the military. The autoloader was supposed to reduce the manpower requirements of tank forces by 25% while still retaining the same capabilities. Like aghart says tho it never really worked and the tank commander often ended up acting as loader.

Edited by DukeC - 30-Jul-2006 at 18:35
Back to Top
Exarchus View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 09:17
Are you sure the Soviets were the first to put an automatic reloader?

I thought the first tank with an automatic reloader was the AMX-13 produced in 1953. The goal was to put a canon comparable to heavy tanks on a light tank and it required an automatic reloader to make the turret short enough to fit the hull.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the first Soviet tank with an automatic reloader was the T-72 and it was the early 70..
Vae victis!
Back to Top
Exarchus View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 09:28
@Aghart
The nature of conflict has evolved though, what you say is 100% true for real and large combat situation, but today we are in a new era of warfare. It is better for tanks to require less logistic and to have better communication devices.

Into a real war of a large scale, it's hard to tell how tanks would act. A lot of them would be probably destroyed by guided missiles, artillery fires and anything designed to destroy tanks (and most powerful countries develloped a lot of weapons specificaly to destroy tanks).

I think, personnaly, in a large war like WWII, that it's better to have a large production capacity and research centers. "No matter what you thought before the war, new weapons systems will soon assert themselves with superior or unexpected performances" says the highly contested James Dunnigan (but who has a very strong point here) in WWI it was tanks that changed the war (first designed as a support to infantry they bacme the main weapon), in WWII it was aircraft carriers (first designed as a support to battlecruisers they became the main weapon).


That is, of course, if a new war broke out between major powers. And considering how bound we are to each others it would damages the world economy too much for any major country to proceed to a "casus belli" so we're really arming ourselves to fight martians. We'll most likely stick to banging 3rd world countries and terrorists for a while. This is why weapons like the Typhoon or F-22 are so contested, they were designed to counter a soviet plane that was never built... and the use of air-superiority planes of that power against third world nations may not be obvious.


Edited by Exarchus - 31-Jul-2006 at 09:31
Vae victis!
Back to Top
xristar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 05-Nov-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1028
  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 11:36
I think the T62 had automatic loader.

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 11:47
The problems with the auto loader were worked out by the T-80 and T-84.
Back to Top
Gundamor View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 568
  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 12:59
I'm sure if your tank training is bad then an autoloader is the way to go. But the americans have NTC and it makes their tankers very well trained. The russian loaders are 7 second reload french one is 5 i believe. American standards are 4 seconds with a usual 2-3 reload. I'm sure British standards are the same. Also a human loader is usally better/faster at switching from AP to Heat rounds. Auto loaders may be more of factor as they introduce heavier rounds off of bigger guns. Right now their only real benifit is that they produce a lower silhouette as they can eliminate anyone from being in the turret. This also increases crew survivablity in someways.

What aqhart wrote is actually the biggest thing i've heard from tankers. The lack of the 4th strains a tanks crew in common details and daily maintenance of a tank. Loader is usually the lowest ranking as well like the kid out of training school. This alows for a more gradual assimilation into the tank. And perhaps provides incentive to excell so he can get out of the loader position.

"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 13:23
Actually most Western tanks were desined in the 1970's, when the auto loadr argument held true. All tanks designed in the mi to late 80's have auto loaders, no longer even a question.
Back to Top
Gundamor View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 568
  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 13:53
How come the new leopards,Challengers and the newer Abrams dont have one? I know the leopard gun has 2 autoloaders designed for its gun and the Abrams has 1-2 yet they dont use it. It has nothing to do with design if it was a factor it would of been modified in the 90s. The abrams of 85 is no where near the same tank as todays abrams. Its still a big question for nations that actually use their tanks. I wouldnt want to be in a tank with an autoloader that has its breech jammed. Humans are faster and reliable which in war is better.
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.