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Steppe Empires and their relation with Ch

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  Quote Jonon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Steppe Empires and their relation with Ch
    Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 02:24
Manchus never reached to Buryat Mongol. Buryat Mongol came under Russia at that time.
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 02:30
2 nomadic peoples truly united China and defined her present day borders with her capitol in Beijing
1. Mongols- built Beijing ; brought Xinjiang, Tibet, Heilongjiang, Yunnan into the empire
2. Manchus - Were a legacy of the Mongols, and ruled China with it's present boundaries with the addition of Mongolia and Buryat Mongolia.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 01:33
Aside from military campaigns, is there any instance where a people migrated west to east along the steppe?
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 22:21
Though here is a good question, is the primary east-west migration movement based on more power in the east due to chinese contacts, or an actual quality in the steppe? I remeber hearing that the steppe gets nicer as grazing an dliving lands the more west you go.


Definately more due to more power and competition in the east. Most of the migrations coincided with poltiical turmoil, and since you can't move east into the Pacific ocean, you can only move west. The other alternative was to move north, which was what some tribes (like the Xiong Nu) did when they were attacked by the Chinese, but the west was far better in land than the north (so that's where the geography might also come in).
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 20:21

Ive also heard about western steppes being more fertile.It doenst explain why the eastern steppe armies seemed to have higher populations than the western ones. 

not sure how accurate these figures are.
1million mongols,100,000 warriors.
20,000 hun invaded carpathians (200,000 huns )
20,000 seljuks defeated Ghaznavids and invaded middle east
 
Perhaps trade for food and metal with chinese made them more powerful.
 
Or perhaps they were just Tougher soldiers from a harsher climate
 
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 18:10

As is pointed out, China was th emost important of these settled peoples to the nomad states.  The tribute system served as an easy way to extract resources without costly and possibly societally destabalizing occupations.  Nonetheless we should not forget the other civilizations that also had an apreciable impact who also had a steppe border.

Though here is a good question, is the primary east-west migration movement based on more power in the east due to chinese contacts, or an actual quality in the steppe? I remeber hearing that the steppe gets nicer as grazing an dliving lands the more west you go.
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 15:50
completely agree with this view. many Steppe empires will also have realized this and looked how to get rid of thsi dependence or symbiotic relationship, so they attempted to conquer (at least partially) China, but the obvious failure of those conquests was the loss of Nomad tradition above all, including corruption through civilization, the loss of small but strong and disciplined nomad horse armies as opposed to huge Chinese peasant infantry militias. as a result, those sinified nomad empires were unable to retain control of the steppe and were unable to protect themselves from new emerging powers from the steppe.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 09:50
No doubt the steppe imperialist powers had beneficial and necessary trade with her neighbors, especially China. Commerce was one of the methods nomad societies could hold sway over her own tribes. However, it is not the only way. Grazing grounds, tribal affinity, moments of opportunistic triumph, plus military defensive and offensive unity were also key reasons for steppe empires to form cohesive organizations. Part of conquering a neighbor involved partition of booty. Whether this was from a Khan's reserves or from the benfits of war still points to the same conclusive direction. That is to keep the tribes content and the rulers capable of providing necessary goods.
 
The case for Mongol breach into China does not prove the need for 'ripe pluckings' by holding a state like China at bay. The Mongols succeeded in the invasion and dominance over China due to a vision of world domination and China was at her back door.
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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 01:25
In a 1981 edition of the Journal of Asian Studies, Barfield made the argument that most steppe empires thrived on the relation with China, which "funded" the nomads with trade and gave the nomads a political agenda to keep themselves united:
  • "The imperial overnment (of the Xiong Nu) was at its most powerful and highly centralized when it conducted foreign affairs and organized military campaigns. It was least powerful and most decentralized at the local level where it ceded political power to the indigenous tribal leaders who were responsible for handling most domestic problems."
Of course, the most convenient "military campaign" would be south on the Chinese border. He also argued:
  • "The imperial level of government was financed by drawing on resources from outside the steppe, not by taxing the nomadic animal breeders from within the empire."
i.e. Drawing resources through trade and raiding. Generalizing the argument, he wrote:
  • "Nomadic conquerors who created empires along the lines of the Xiong nu and used them to exploit China produced powerful states that survived their founders. Those nomadic conquerors who failed to see that a nomadic state required the support of resources from outside the steppe had their empires collapsed or suffer a power vacuum at their deaths."
So essentially, the importance of China to the steppes empires, as argued, was that it provided the nomads with resources. For this reason, Barfield argued that nomads did not perfer to entirely conquer China, but maintain an aggressive relation in order to exact the resources. A long, drawn-out attempt of conquest would be too costly, and on the other extreme, an isolationist policy would not generate the economic activity to "fund" the steppe empire.

Since no nomadic power completely conquered China until the Mongols, this observation appears to hold true for at least 1000 years of history before the 13th century.

The centralized power of the nomadic state was derived from achieving the goals described above. An example, provided in the article is that:

  • The notable successes founded along Xiong nu lines were those of the Turks and Uighurs who dominated the steppe from the middle of the sixth century... Both successfully forced China to fund a complex state by extorting subsidies and controlling a vast quantity of silk.

    In 840, the Kirghiz successfully destroyed the Uighur state and occupied its heartland, but they proved incapable of recreating the complex relationship that the Uighurs had established with Tang China, which funded the Uighur state. AS a result, no Kirghiz state ever came into existence...nor attain any power over the rest of the steppes.
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