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    Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 09:17
Originally posted by Northman

No - they didnt chase them out - and I'm actually asking why they didnt...
 
Earlier in this thread it is mentioned that the Normans didnt conquer the area.
So I'm asking... - if they didnt conquer it, why would the French allow them to stay there for 100 years, and then furthermore give them a Duchy?
 
Wasnt it partly to stop them from attacking again and again - and to make them "allies"?
 


Ho ok, I see.

Well, I have a my opinion. In the middle ages it was the nobles who did the wars. Peasants had no weapons exepted for the soldiers working for the nobles and mercenaries. So there was a need for fighters really, using Viking mercenaries and granting them noble rights was a good way to put them on your side. In the end, Europe ended with a large amount of fighters which no ennemies since the Scandinavians and Magyars took christianism, that large amount of unused fighters is said to be a cause for the crusades.

Don't get it wrong though, the Nordic settlement in Normandy is considered small. You don't see that many blonde in Normandy really.


Edited by Exarchus - 13-Jul-2006 at 09:18
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Posts: 4262 		  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 10:18
Originally posted by Exarchus

Originally posted by Northman

No - they didnt chase them out - and I'm actually asking why they didnt...
 
Earlier in this thread it is mentioned that the Normans didnt conquer the area.
So I'm asking... - if they didnt conquer it, why would the French allow them to stay there for 100 years, and then furthermore give them a Duchy?
 
Wasnt it partly to stop them from attacking again and again - and to make them "allies"?
 


Ho ok, I see.

Well, I have a my opinion. In the middle ages it was the nobles who did the wars. Peasants had no weapons exepted for the soldiers working for the nobles and mercenaries. So there was a need for fighters really, using Viking mercenaries and granting them noble rights was a good way to put them on your side. In the end, Europe ended with a large amount of fighters which no ennemies since the Scandinavians and Magyars took christianism, that large amount of unused fighters is said to be a cause for the crusades.

Don't get it wrong though, the Nordic settlement in Normandy is considered small. You don't see that many blonde in Normandy really.
 
So you think that during the 100 years settlements (or strongholds), the Vikings gained a sort of prescriptive right to the area and conclusively gained acceptance from the French with the Duchy and the alliance as the result?
 
No, you are absolutely right - not too many blondes in Normandy Smile
 
 
 


Edited by Northman - 13-Jul-2006 at 10:19
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 14:04
Originally posted by Exarchus

Originally posted by Paul

The written form of Geordie is identical to the English written in the whole country, but the way it's spoken makes it unintelligable. The same five vowels are used, but they make completely different sounds.
 
 
 


Really? I've been to Sunderland and, although I had the feeling they butcher English, I could still understand what they said.
 
In that case perhaps you can translate for me, I can't....
 
Sanple 1
 
Sample 2
 
Sample 3
 
Sample 4
 
Sample 5
 


Edited by Paul - 13-Jul-2006 at 14:06
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Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 17:20
Originally posted by Paul

 
Sample 5
 


Is this some kind of poem about: shooting Scots along the road with your lads. Confused
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 19:55
Originally posted by Paul

Originally posted by Exarchus

Originally posted by Paul

The written form of Geordie is identical to the English written in the whole country, but the way it's spoken makes it unintelligable. The same five vowels are used, but they make completely different sounds.
 
 
 


Really? I've been to Sunderland and, although I had the feeling they butcher English, I could still understand what they said.
 
In that case perhaps you can translate for me, I can't....
 
Sanple 1
 
Sample 2
 
Sample 3
 
Sample 4
 
Sample 5
 

It sounds very similar to a Lowland Scottish accent? It may be because some of the pronounciations in Scotland are still influenced by the Scots language, which was very similar to old English. I believe the first one he is saying "Howay, we're gonna walk it" which translates to "Come on, we are going to walk it." Via some of my good internet detective skillsLOL, I found what sample number five actually was saying(nothing about shooting Scots, Axeman). The guy in Sample 5 was singing a line from the Gordie song entitled "Blaydon Races".

Oh lads, ye shud only seen us gannin',
 We pass'd the foaks upon the road just as they wor stannin';
 Thor wes lots o' lads an' lasses there, all wi' smiling faces,
 Gawn alang the Scotswood Road, to see the Blaydon Races.

Rough Translation:

Oh, lads, you should only have seen us going,
We passed the folks upon the road just as they were standing,
There were lots of lads and lasses there, all with smiling faces,
Gone along the Scotswood Road, to see the Blaydon Races.

EDIT: Nothing about Scots, or "bleeding rearses" in "Blaydon Races"



Edited by Emperor Barbarossa - 13-Jul-2006 at 23:02

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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 20:38
They say Geordie comes from Norse. A lot of the dialect words are pretty similar to old norse.
 
Scottish is a weird language, you'de imagine the further north you went the stronger the accent got. Avtually it's the opposite. In the far and islands the accent is minimal and in the Shetland practically English. On the borders however it's alomst as unitelligable as Geordie. So possibly a common Norse link.
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Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 22:08
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

 
Very true. My story was referring to the period before 1066, as I have said before, but I dont think this came through that thick headed skull of Q.
 
Yea, my skull is so thick that I even take your insults as a compliment. Thank you for your compliment.
 
It was starting to dawn on me that I've gone too far and needed to delete the post. Now my tiny brain, housed within my thick skull, is telling me that, ostensibly, I was not the only one being discourteous.
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Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 22:21
Originally posted by Northman

Originally posted by Exarchus

Originally posted by Northman

If it wasnt a "conquered" area - why didnt the French just chase them back into the sea again during those hundred years?
 


I don't understand what you mean? When did the French chase the Normans out of France?
 
No - they didnt chase them out - and I'm actually asking why they didnt...
 
Earlier in this thread it is mentioned that the Normans didnt conquer the area.
So I'm asking... - if they didnt conquer it, why would the French allow them to stay there for 100 years, and then furthermore give them a Duchy?
 
Wasnt it partly to stop them from attacking again and again - and to make them "allies"?
 
 
Why didn't they? Because after the defeat of Rollo at Chartre,  it was agreed upon that Rollo's band would defend Normandy against future viking raids--in exchange--Rollo would be allowed to settle on the land. You call that conquest?
 
You forget Normandy was the french king land. It was just he was too weak to enforce his right. It's not just in normandy he couldn't enforce his right, but in nearly all other duchies. But the French king remained the Overlord. Rollo was a duke not a king. But in around 11th, the king of France also became of the duke of Normandy.
 
Look how weak the French king really was.The French king was simply a title and hardly represent the whole of France (Francia occidentalis). A very strong duke could have usurped the power, but he needed the guarantee that all other duchies would not group together and attack him in an attempt to rescue the throne. That's why many people confuse France with the French king. He only controlled a small fraction of the land (dark green). But the Capet, with the help of the Angevins, physically conquered all other duchies and went even outside Francia occidentalis (determine by the red boundaries). Every duchies within that boundary is culturally French and belong to the French sphere and therefore has the French king as Overlord.
 
Conquest meant separation of a Duchies from Francia Occidentalis, under a new king.
 


Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 13-Jul-2006 at 22:35
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Originally posted by Paul

They say Geordie comes from Norse. A lot of the dialect words are pretty similar to old norse.
 
Scottish is a weird language, you'de imagine the further north you went the stronger the accent got. Avtually it's the opposite. In the far and islands the accent is minimal and in the Shetland practically English. On the borders however it's alomst as unitelligable as Geordie. So possibly a common Norse link.

Here's how I think of it. The pronounciations of the words are so similar to the modern day Scottish accent, which was greatly influenced by the Lowland Scots language. The Lowland Scots language was heavily based off of Northumbrian, which was a mixture of not just Old Norse, but also Old Anglo-Saxon. You see, Geordie is one of the Northumbrian dialects. I think it is not just a common Norse link, but also a common Anglo-Saxon link.

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Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 23:48
 
 
 
Who was it who said, "the difference between the English and French is, the French think they're better than everyone else, but the English know they are."
 
 
 
Why do I have the feeling it was an Englishman who said that. We all know the Englishman is arrogance personified (warning, this is a joke); we French are very humble people; we  are unfortunately misundertood. Wink


Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 13-Jul-2006 at 23:49
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 04:27
Originally posted by Paul

They say Geordie comes from Norse. A lot of the dialect words are pretty similar to old norse.
 
Scottish is a weird language, you'de imagine the further north you went the stronger the accent got. Avtually it's the opposite. In the far and islands the accent is minimal and in the Shetland practically English. On the borders however it's alomst as unitelligable as Geordie. So possibly a common Norse link.
 
Is that possibly because the Gaelic-speaking areas learned English as a foreign language quite late?
 
Whereas in the south and south-east Lallans is the 'natural' language of the people, and close enough to standard English so they didn't have to learn anything different?
 
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 04:32
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

 
Very true. My story was referring to the period before 1066, as I have said before, but I dont think this came through that thick headed skull of Q.
 
Yea, my skull is so thick that I even take your insults as a compliment. Thank you for your compliment.
 
It was starting to dawn on me that I've gone too far and needed to delete the post. Now my tiny brain, housed within my thick skull, is telling me that, ostensibly, I was not the only one being discourteous.
 
You called me a Nazi, I'd say calling you thick skulled is a very polite reply to that.
 
 


Edited by Aelfgifu - 14-Jul-2006 at 05:51

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Here is an older related thread - very informative.
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 04:59
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Paul

They say Geordie comes from Norse. A lot of the dialect words are pretty similar to old norse.
 
Scottish is a weird language, you'de imagine the further north you went the stronger the accent got. Avtually it's the opposite. In the far and islands the accent is minimal and in the Shetland practically English. On the borders however it's alomst as unitelligable as Geordie. So possibly a common Norse link.
 
Is that possibly because the Gaelic-speaking areas learned English as a foreign language quite late?
 
Whereas in the south and south-east Lallans is the 'natural' language of the people, and close enough to standard English so they didn't have to learn anything different?
 
 
I think your'e probably right.
 
When the Gailic speakers finally learnt the language maybe they learnt to speak English not Scottish.
 
 


Edited by Paul - 14-Jul-2006 at 05:00
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I can get the point in what they said in those sample yeah. You have to understand though speaking to someone face to face and to a movie or a video tape isn't the same though.

I really wasn't confused at the geordie accept in Sunderland. I think it's a very bad example if you want to prove Norman French and French are distinct and unintelligible.


The obvious reason being Geordie is an accent when Norman is a dialect.


Edited by Exarchus - 14-Jul-2006 at 06:15
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 09:34
Originally posted by Paul

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Paul

They say Geordie comes from Norse. A lot of the dialect words are pretty similar to old norse.
 
Scottish is a weird language, you'de imagine the further north you went the stronger the accent got. Avtually it's the opposite. In the far and islands the accent is minimal and in the Shetland practically English. On the borders however it's alomst as unitelligable as Geordie. So possibly a common Norse link.
 
Is that possibly because the Gaelic-speaking areas learned English as a foreign language quite late?
 
Whereas in the south and south-east Lallans is the 'natural' language of the people, and close enough to standard English so they didn't have to learn anything different?
 
 
I think your'e probably right.
 
When the Gailic speakers finally learnt the language maybe they learnt to speak English not Scottish.
 
 

Yes, I agree with this theory. The Lowland Scots language sounds very similar to English, thus why they never had to learn it. However, the Highlanders learned English from the English, and thus, had a more English sounding accent. And don't forget the inhabitants Orkney and Shetland Islands had spoken a form of Norse for a long while until they learned English.

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Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 09:48
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

The normans were overwhemingly gauls, their scandinavian ancestry is too small to be relevent, perhaps only historically, since the Duchy was created by scandinavian.


Nope. The Normans were mostly Scandinavians, who had adopted French customs - at least, the ones who went to England. The population of Normandy itself may well have been French. But the aristocracy that ruled it wasn't.

William didn't actually use Normans to invade England. He used a mercenary force, gathered from all over Europe.

The French historians need to start to move their @sses and counterthe lies of the anglo-saxons and germanophile, who constantly associate all great races of Europes with the Germanics.


Vikings aren't Germanic, except in Hitler's fevered brain. With the possible exception of some Danish groups ... however, the Normans were more likely Norwegian.

It claims the "Norman" (in fact he meantviking) conquered Normandy. TheVikings never conquered Normandy. After the vikings were defeated by the Franks at chartres, a treaty was signed.Rollo's viking would be allowed to settle onto the King of France land, forming a dukedom, and help fight more raids.


It's highly unlikely that Rollo was ever at Chartres. That was probably some other band of Vikings.

It beggars the imagination to think that you defeat an invader, and then give him a bunch of land and let him physically embarass your leader at the signing of the accord.
    

Edited by edgewaters - 15-Jul-2006 at 09:56
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him physically embarass your leader at the signing of the accord.
 
You are referring to the incident of the kissing of the kings foot? LOL That was funny!!

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Nope. The Normans were mostly Scandinavians, who had adopted French customs - at least, the ones who went to England. The population of Normandy itself may well have been French. But the aristocracy that ruled it wasn't.

William didn't actually use Normans to invade England. He used a mercenary force, gathered from all over Europe.
 
LOL. I wonder what hisotry book you are reading. THe Normans weren't scandinavian. By 1066, the aristocracy was overwheemingly gallic, considering the fact, the Duchies married their daugters and sons to neighbouring noble of neighbouring duchies to seal alliances. William married her daughter, Adela, to Stephen of Blois (from Blois), whose son later become king of England and duke of Normandy. (Just one example to counter your misguided claim, that the aristocracy was scandinavian rather than Gallic).
 
The ones that went to England? LOL, again you hardly knows what you are talking about. It's not like they cut off from the continent. Only after the capetians war were the French factions of England were cut off from the continent and forced to assimilate. Prior to that a sort of apartheid system existed in England, Anglo-saxons and true scandinavians were set apart apart from the ruling French.
 
You are right on one point, the Normans feudal lords had no obligaion to serve overseas, so only a small fraction of the army was actually from normandy. Most mercenaries were recruited from France not europe as you claimed. The most numerous being the Bretons, flanders (not to confused with the Flanders of nowadays, the greater part of Flanders was in France, and all part ruled mostly by French elites.) and other area of France. Non- french mercenaries were actually rare.


Vikings aren't Germanic, except in Hitler's fevered brain. With the possible exception of some Danish groups ... however, the Normans were more likely Norwegian.
 
Vikings were Germanics; what the hell you talking about? The Normans, I repeat were not scandinavians. The small number of scandinavians that moved in Normandy were danish, not norwegian. Normans are people of Normandy; they spoke French and are French, therefore, they cannot be scandinavian. Norsemen were scandinavians. Normans and Norsemen were related in names only. The anglo-saxons, for instance ,referred to the Normans as romans (weird enough, but understable since they still think people of the continents were all romans) and Norsemen as Normenns (that is the vikings. Clearly proving Normans and Norsemen were two completely different people by 1066.)

It claims the "Norman" (in fact he meant viking) conquered Normandy. The Vikings never conquered Normandy. After the vikings were defeated by the Franks at chartres, a treaty was signed. Rollo's viking would be allowed to settle onto the King of France land, forming a dukedom, and help fight more raids.


It's highly unlikely that Rollo was ever at Chartres. That was probably some other band of Vikings. [/quote]
 
LOL, Rollo wasn't at Chartres?
 
 

It beggars the imagination to think that you defeat an invader, and then give him a bunch of land and let him physically embarass your leader at the signing of the accord.
    
 
This is because you have a poor imagination, no offence. I think the deal is pretty normal. It was impossible to contain the viking raids, due the cowardly nature of vikings, who usually avoid ton confront large armies and soft targets (they were like the terrorists of these days). France being a large country, the King of France, wisely decided to make use of the Rollo's band to counter the viking, instead of continuing a vain struggle to contain the viking. As Normandy increase in power,  the duchy shielded Paris.
 
Extract
 

The Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte was signed in the autumn of 911 between Charles the Simple and Rollo, the leader of the Vikings, for the purpose of settling the Normans in Neustria and to protect Charles' kingdom from any new invasion from the "northmen". No written records survive concerning the creation of the Duchy of Normandy.

In addition, Rollo was to be baptised and marry Gisele, the illegitimate daughter of Charles, and become the vassal of the king. This last point was complicated because Rollo refused to kneel in front of the king and kiss his foot. A compromise was reached, whereby Rollo took the foot of the king but did not kneel, taking it so high that the king lost his balance and fell.

 

From this extract, one can instantly find out that Rollo, the count of Rouen (Duchy of Normandy will be created later), married Charles, illegitmate daughter. As such, as second generation descendents are automatically half-french. Along the line, since, the isolation from scandinavia, the descendents married with neighbouring duchies. Bu 1066 (155 years after 911), the amount of scandinavian running inside the Normans aristocrats would be negligible.



Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 16-Jul-2006 at 00:54
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Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 00:39
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

him physically embarass your leader at the signing of the accord.
 
You are referring to the incident of the kissing of the kings foot? LOL That was funny!!
 
What is that incident? He still kissed his foot though, meaning he was definitely defeated. I mean common, he still had to kiss the king foot. If the king of France was defeated, there would be no argument about foot kissing at the first place. The king would be more humble.
 
Good the king fell on his @ss. Franciliens (parisians) were arrogance incarnate, they were not even as gallic as the Normans, they were a mixture of Frank, roman and gauls. The more east and North you go the more germanics they were.
 
As I see it, the Fragmentation of France into the Angevin Empire and France, was more a racial divide, Gaul (Angevins, Normans) vs bastardised Franks.
 


Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 16-Jul-2006 at 01:04
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