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Attila the Hun-is he Asian or Indo-European?

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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Attila the Hun-is he Asian or Indo-European?
    Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 04:44
They would have lost some of the influence of Chinese civilization that had trickled into their culture while they were on the eastern steppes.  Likewise, they would have picked up influence from the western peoples they had come into contact with.
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 08:07
Originally posted by Arald



and how sure are you that he was your ancestor?

 
Go read some articles about Xiongnu tribe and Huns, which were both Turkic tribes pursuant to established facts of ancient history...
 
 
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  Quote Arald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 09:42
Go read some articles about Xiongnu tribe and Huns, which were both Turkic tribes pursuant to established facts of ancient history...


Please feel free to post the "articles" that in your obviously unbiased opinion prove your so-called established facts of ancient history
Articles can either be informative or completely biased rubbish. If a nation deems itself either the cultural or ethnical successor of the Huns, that doesn`t necessarily have to be the case.

Edited by Arald - 18-Mar-2007 at 11:29
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 10:19
I don't think the burden of proof is upon me regarding that the Huns are a group from the Xiongnu tribe who immigrated to West and Xiongnu tribe is a Turkic tribe. The common fact is that it is a Turkic tribe, and most of the info inherited is from the ancient Chinese sources and if you deny this link totally, which is what you seem to do, you indeed need to tell your basis of information...
 
And, it is not a matter of "my ancestor/your ancestor" discussion..Don't make it into that way.
 
Most basically, feel free to go to main site, www.allempires.com and read some articles about Steppes... 


Edited by Kapikulu - 18-Mar-2007 at 10:36
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  Quote Arald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 13:03
I'm not the one turning this into a "my ancestor/your ancestor" discussion, but rather a certain overly-nationalistic group of a certain ethnicity. Statements such as "he was my ancestor" are naive and childish, and have no place outside kindergarden or the first grade...or the looney bin for that matter.

If Attila had been just another washed-up failure of a warchief whose deeds would`ve brought shame upon his name for centuries to come, making him the laughing stock of history, I am sure that certain members of a certain ethnos on this forum wouldn`t throng to claim him as their own, their own personal "ancestor".

The very idea of claiming direct descent from Huns is preposterous, let alone from Attila himself. By saying that you are suggesting that the Huns are the ancestors of about 150 million turkic speakers worldwide! That is ludicrous! By parity of reasoning one can say that those Laplanders that still have mongoloid blood can just as well claim Ghenghis Khan as their own !
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 14:50
Originally posted by Arald

I'm not the one turning this into a "my ancestor/your ancestor" discussion, but rather a certain overly-nationalistic group of a certain ethnicity. Statements such as "he was my ancestor" are naive and childish, and have no place outside kindergarden or the first grade...or the looney bin for that matter.
 
 
I think you are not familiar with the everyday usage of English, or pretend like you are not..."He was my ancestor" doesn't necessarily mean that Attila was his grandfather.
 
Furthermore, you don't have any right to label any member of a group anything...Watch your word...
Originally posted by Arald


If Attila had been just another washed-up failure of a warchief whose deeds would`ve brought shame upon his name for centuries to come, making him the laughing stock of history, I am sure that certain members of a certain ethnos on this forum wouldn`t throng to claim him as their own, their own personal "ancestor".
 
 
Non-sense...Every nation has heroes, and as well, tragedies...I am not embarassed to say e.g. Enver Pasha or Muhammad Shah of Khwarazm, or Sultan Gıyaseddin Keyhusrev II of Seljuks etc. etc. , who were not successful, was of a Turkic descent ...
 
Originally posted by Arald



The very idea of claiming direct descent from Huns is preposterous, let alone from Attila himself. By saying that you are suggesting that the Huns are the ancestors of about 150 million turkic speakers worldwide! That is ludicrous! By parity of reasoning one can say that those Laplanders that still have mongoloid blood can just as well claim Ghenghis Khan as their own !
 
Again you are talking illogically...I or the Chinese sources, or historians don't throw things out of our rears... Huns are not the ancestors of 150 million Turkic speakers worldwide, but were of a Turkic descent. There are no Huns today, they have melted in Central Europe or the ones who stayed in Far East melted among Chinese or Turkic tribes. But that doesn't mean Huns cannot be of Turkic descent. And, If Laplanders truly have roots to Mongols, they can claim that they have ties to Mongols.


Edited by Kapikulu - 18-Mar-2007 at 14:54
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  Quote Arald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 17:54
First of all thank you for your interest in my English. If deciphering it prooves too much of a task for you, I will be more than happy to explain any part which you might find unintelligible. Fortunately for me, I am familiar with the everyday usage of English and hence comprehend the meaning of the word "ancestor" (forefather, forerunner, or whatever, just pick one). If you accept "Attila was my ancestor" as being a rational, historically correct statement then it`s your problem not mine. Then I suppose it's perfectly legitimate for an Irishman to state that Vercingetorix is his ancestor as well.

Secondly, it seems only fair that you should consider Enver Pasha for example, an integrant part of your nation's history. But there's a long way from there to forcibly incoporating a semi-legendary figure of European history that belongs to NO nation into your own state's history for the sole purpose of bolstering it's glory. The situation is FAR more complex than this and it would be a pity to dispose of it in this simplistic manner. I'm sure any European historian would have a good chuckle reading some of the preposterous assertions on this thread and seeing the nationalistic stubbornness with which Attila is greedily claimed in the name of ONE single nation whilst just as greedily and absurdly being denied to anyone else. You have the right to your own personal and intimate opinion that he belongs to no one else but you, as long as you don`t slap everyone else in the face with that opinion. It is not my job to change it nor is it my intention to do so. I am merely trying to prove a point. A wise man once said "...think that if you were to want to remove from a person's mind all the absurdities which he believes in, you would reach Methuselah's age and still not succeed." And he was not turkish/turkic, although I'm sure some of the forumers here will find a way to make him turkish and prove me wrong

There are no Huns today, they have melted in Central Europe or the ones who stayed in Far East melted among Chinese or Turkic tribes.

Then we agree on something. I believe I have said the same thing earlier, correct me if I`m wrong. There ARE no Huns today, that's why it is irrational for a single nation or a group of people to claim either direct or indirect descent from them.

But that doesn't mean Huns cannot be of Turkic descent

Not once have I claimed that the Huns couldn`t have been of turkic stock. On the contrary, I find Joseph de Guignes' theory quite interesting. However, an interesting theory does not always equal absolute/complete truth.

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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 02:05
Originally posted by Arald

I'm not the one turning this into a "my ancestor/your ancestor" discussion, but rather a certain overly-nationalistic group of a certain ethnicity. Statements such as "he was my ancestor" are naive and childish, and have no place outside kindergarden or the first grade...or the looney bin for that matter.

If Attila had been just another washed-up failure of a warchief whose deeds would`ve brought shame upon his name for centuries to come, making him the laughing stock of history, I am sure that certain members of a certain ethnos on this forum wouldn`t throng to claim him as their own, their own personal "ancestor".

The very idea of claiming direct descent from Huns is preposterous, let alone from Attila himself. By saying that you are suggesting that the Huns are the ancestors of about 150 million turkic speakers worldwide! That is ludicrous! By parity of reasoning one can say that those Laplanders that still have mongoloid blood can just as well claim Ghenghis Khan as their own !
 
Sorry to inturrupt the convo, but you do make a good point. However...keep in mind that Genghis Khan left an incredible amount of blood relatives and or descendants. In fact, a good percentage of Asia is said to possibly be able to claim descent from Genghis Khan himself to this day.


Edited by Penelope - 19-Mar-2007 at 02:06
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  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 03:39
Sorry to inturrupt the convo, but you do make a good point. However...keep in mind that Genghis Khan left an incredible amount of blood relatives and or descendants. In fact, a good percentage of Asia is said to possibly be able to claim descent from Genghis Khan himself to this day.
Sorry but this is very stupid - besides reading non - sense stuff u have to believe your logics too!
Yes Turks are Huns, but huns are not Turks! Becouse Mongolians may also be Huns descendants, Kara Kitais and Manchurians too!
 
That does not mean that They're Turk.
 
Hun itself may come from Scythians - Renne Grusset
 
Attila, as Gothic historian said, was an Asian for sure - Read Michael Babcock
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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  Quote Arald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 05:42
Furthermore, you don't have any right to label any member of a group anything...Watch your word...


Sorry but this is very stupid


Hmm, how about that right to label other groups, Kapikulu? Isn't it suppossed to apply for everyone, in your obviously unbiased opinion?


Yes Turks are Huns, but huns are not Turks!


Fascinating. Then it's safe to say that Germanics are Austrian, but Austrians are not Germanic. Fascinating indeed.


Yes Turks are Huns, but huns are not Turks!


Maybe you meant it the other way around, or you just wanted to say that Huns are Turkic but Turks are not Huns. Or that some Huns might have been turkic, but not all of them. In which case I agree with you completely. Please clean up your post otherwise an utterly unbiased mod will start accussing you of not being able to properly use and interpret everyday English , as he did me.

That does not mean that They're Turk.

Hun itself may come from Scythians - Renne Grusset
I agree.

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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 11:06
The Xiong-Nu who supposedly went "west" is hundreds of years before Attila. Thus at most we can only assume that the Huns, and Attila, would be a spin-off of the Xiong-Nu, in which the Xiong-Nu mixed with other nomadic tribes in Russia or whatnot and it is these descendants that went to Rome. The Xiong-Nu themselves? Hard to believe, for it's impossible to go through a 300 year time gap and not mix with other local tribes.
 
btw, as for Genghis Khan, the guy probably had the most descendants(for now) compared to all other guys of his time period.
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 15:51
Originally posted by Arald

Then I suppose it's perfectly legitimate for an Irishman to state that Vercingetorix is his ancestor as well.
 
Yes, that would be a perfect example of the common usage of the word ancestor, in a casual style. As I said before, there doesn't need to be a direct line.
 


Originally posted by Arald

But there's a long way from there to forcibly incoporating a semi-legendary figure of European history that belongs to NO nation into your own state's history for the sole purpose of bolstering it's glory.
 
Your charges seem endless like the Charge of the Light Cavalry brigadeLOL
 
Attila belongs to no nation, and to no state on the world. We are only discussing his possible ethnicity and the strongest theory is that he belonged to a Turkic tribe. I don't deny any other theories and they are welcomed to be expressed here as it had been done before. Express your thesis then...Which ethnicity do you think Attila belonged to?
 
Originally posted by Arald

I'm sure any European historian would have a good chuckle reading some of the preposterous assertions on this thread and seeing the nationalistic stubbornness with which Attila is greedily claimed in the name of ONE single nation
 
I first advise you to learn the difference between ethnicity and nation before playing with European historians. You refer telling facts as nationalism, but I could not see any solid counter-argument except a salad of words and personal attacks that he was not of a Turkic descent. We can't know that for %100 sure, as we cannot be %100 sure of anything in the past, however, the history says it is the best possibility. 
 
Originally posted by Arald

whilst just as greedily and absurdly being denied to anyone else.
 
Which everyone else?Big%20smile
 
 
Originally posted by Kapikulu

I am merely trying to prove a point. And he was not turkish/turkic, although I'm sure some of the forumers here will find a way to make him turkish and prove me wrong
 
Is this your method to prove points? Keep up with thatWink


Then we agree on something. I believe I have said the same thing earlier, correct me if I`m wrong. There ARE no Huns today, that's why it is irrational for a single nation or a group of people to claim either direct or indirect descent from them.
 
We are searching links in the descent...There is no specific group referred as Huns, however people try to find about history progressively, and establish links between different tribes which passed from the dusty pages of history.

Originally posted by Arald


Not once have I claimed that the Huns couldn`t have been of turkic stock.
 
Your words above does not say so...
 
Originally posted by Arald


Hmm, how about that right to label other groups, Kapikulu? Isn't it suppossed to apply for everyone, in your obviously unbiased opinion?
 
You acted offensively against members of one specific nation unnecessarily while I cannot see any offense against any nationality out there...He just stated that he found the idea stupid.
 
Originally posted by Arald

On the contrary, I find Joseph de Guignes' theory quite interesting. However, an interesting theory does not always equal absolute/complete truth.
 
In order to make some good discussion, why don't you begin by explaining de Guignes' theory to everyone.Wink


Edited by Kapikulu - 19-Mar-2007 at 16:08
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 16:02
Originally posted by Omnipotence

The Xiong-Nu who supposedly went "west" is hundreds of years before Attila.
 
It is not "hundreds" of years, it is even less than a hundred year between the time Huns are thought to have migrated to West and the first time they have shown their effect as a group in Eastern Europe.
 
Both the mass migration and their first appearance in Europe happened in 4th century AD...It shall be remembered that Huns had many rulers before Attila. He was not the only ruler.
 
But, it is arguable and indeed very true that the Huns had been mixed with other numerous Germannic tribes after they have settled themselves in Middle and Eastern Europe. There are 100 years between their settlement and fade-away.


Edited by Kapikulu - 20-Mar-2007 at 19:11
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 02:05
Originally posted by Kerimoglu

Sorry to inturrupt the convo, but you do make a good point. However...keep in mind that Genghis Khan left an incredible amount of blood relatives and or descendants. In fact, a good percentage of Asia is said to possibly be able to claim descent from Genghis Khan himself to this day.
Sorry but this is very stupid - besides reading non - sense stuff u have to believe your logics too!
Yes Turks are Huns, but huns are not Turks! Becouse Mongolians may also be Huns descendants, Kara Kitais and Manchurians too!
 
That does not mean that They're Turk.
 
Hun itself may come from Scythians - Renne Grusset
 
Attila, as Gothic historian said, was an Asian for sure - Read Michael Babcock
 
For you to have to resort to name-calling, only shows how immature, and lacking of knowledge you are.


Edited by Penelope - 20-Mar-2007 at 02:06
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  Quote Arald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 07:58
Yes, that would be a perfect example of the common usage of the word ancestor, in a casual style. As I said before, there doesn't need to be a direct line.


Great. Then we're just a few clowns shy of a circus. All hail Vercingetorix, ancestor of the Irish. btw, you don`t see Vercingetorix in Irish history books for one simple reason: common sense.

Originally posted by Kapikulu

We can't know that for %100 sure, as we cannot be %100 sure of anything in the past


I don't know man...some people here seem to disagree with you :D They know for sure, and have pictures to proove it. LOL :

Originally posted by omergun

Atilla had a Trkic appearence.


Great. Thanks for solving that for us. We can all just go home now.

Originally posted by omergun

A picture of Atilla


Nice shot. He wasn`t even blinking. Red-eye reduction reduction function and everything, must be one great camera. Lemme just get my pictures of Erik the Red and we can swap.

Originally posted by omergun

First of all Atilla is Trkish. His appearence is Trkish. He is the most famous TrkHun leader in the medieval


Again, thanks for clearing that up. Damn that pesky Priscus, why didn`t he just say so in the first place

Originally posted by Kapikulu

Is this your method to prove points? Keep up with that
You didn`t mention what method you were referring to. We`re getting nowhere. By "he" I was referring to the person I quoted. Keep up with what? Oh, you meant, "Keep that up"?

Originally posted by Kapikulu

We are searching links in the descent

Links in the descent?! Tread carefully, you're on a dangerous path.Romanian communist dictator Nicolae ceausescu had established for himself a direct line of descent from the dacian king Burebista some 2000 years earlier! However preposterous and outrageous that may seem, it was taken VERY seriously at the time. Direct lines of descent are a dangerous business.

Originally posted by Kapikulu

Your words above does not say so...
Please point out where exactly have I ever stated that Huns could under no circumstance have been of turkic stock. Please let me know which "above words does not say so" as you say

Originally posted by Kapikulu


You acted offensively against members of one specific nation unnecessarily while I cannot see any offense against any nationality out there...He just stated that he found the idea stupid.


Oh, so anybody can just insult anybody of this forum as long as he doesn`t say anything about that person's ethnicity then? Because that's what you are implying.

Originally posted by Arald

I'm not the one turning this into a "my ancestor/your ancestor" discussion, but rather a certain overly-nationalistic group of a certain ethnicity. Statements such as "he was my ancestor" are naive and childish, and have no place outside kindergarden or the first grade...or the looney bin for that matter.


I remain steadfast in considering assertions such as "he was my ancestor" naive and childish, to say the very least. There is nothing discriminatory in my post. It is more than obvious that certain turkish forumers are aggressively promoting a turkish-only image for Attila (not even turkIC, but strictly turkISH). Don`t you consider this the least bit wrong? There is no international consensus regarding the exact ethnic origin of the Huns. There is no undeniable proof, just a series of hypotheses, that one can either choose to believe or not.


With regard to the French orientalist Joseph de Guignes, he is, to my knowledge, the one who first identified the Huns with the Xiongnu, thereby promoting the idea that they were of turkic origin, an idea thereafter promoted by a series of other historians. And since you
asked what I believe, I think it is quite plausible that they might have been of turkic stock, but not only.









Edited by Arald - 20-Mar-2007 at 11:36
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 10:17
Originally posted by Arald

I'm not the one turning this into a "my ancestor/your ancestor" discussion, but rather a certain overly-nationalistic group of a certain ethnicity. Statements such as "he was my ancestor" are naive and childish, and have no place outside kindergarden or the first grade...or the looney bin for that matter.

If Attila had been just another washed-up failure of a warchief whose deeds would`ve brought shame upon his name for centuries to come, making him the laughing stock of history, I am sure that certain members of a certain ethnos on this forum wouldn`t throng to claim him as their own, their own personal "ancestor".

The very idea of claiming direct descent from Huns is preposterous, let alone from Attila himself. By saying that you are suggesting that the Huns are the ancestors of about 150 million turkic speakers worldwide! That is ludicrous! By parity of reasoning one can say that those Laplanders that still have mongoloid blood can just as well claim Ghenghis Khan as their own !
 
Yes you did.
 
Originally posted by Arald

 
I never knew turks were so obsessed about attila. is there NOTHING more interesting in your entire history? attila belongs to no nation, he was of a people that have long since vanished, only Hungary could partially claim him.
 
 
Arald, there are members here that consider Attila to be a Hun. The ethnicity of his progeny and ancestors have been debated however. At Attila's time there were not any ethnic Turks or Hungarians as we now know them. But there were ethnicities that spoke those languages. Recent books discuss the Hun's as speaking a Turkic language( Empires of the World - A Language History of the World. 2005 Nicholas Ostler). 
 
Excerpts:  "After invasions from Germanic-speaking Goths in 378, Turkic-speaking Huns in 441-7, Germanic Ostrogoths in 479-82, and Turkic-speaking Bulgars in 493, the mayhem continued in the sixth century." p. 261
 
"Back in the east, the generation following Alaric had seen Attila, king of the Turkic-speaking Huns from 435 to 453, bring the Hunnish domain west to include all of Germany." p.306
 
 
Two moderators have encouraged you to mind the CoC. You brought up a counterpoint in your defence but did not defend the direct accusations that the mods have made. Your tone is full of mocking and provocations. You have been officially warned once before. Keep this in mind when you trivialize others posts with criticsm and twist content out of context. 
 
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  Quote Arald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 12:25

Originally posted by Seko

Yes you did.


I beg to differ:

Originally posted by Mortazaa

he was my ancestor



Originally posted by omergun

First of all Atilla is Trkish. His appearence is Trkish. He is the most famous TrkHun leader in the medieval


Is this part of the debate as well? And what's a "TrkHun" for that matter?
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 15:17
Contradict posts but with less hostility, antagonism, & insults, because it's the only way to keep discussions constructive.
He claimed Attila "ancestry" & you started behaving like it was direct insult towards you, but the comment wasn't intended as an insult & you should understand that, please.
 
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  Quote Arald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 15:57
Alright, fair enough. Point proven.
"Zszlnk gyakran plntld, Vad trk sncra, s nygte Mtys bs hadt, Bcsnek bszke vra" - "Eu nu ti-as dori vreodata sa ajungi sa ne cunosti, nici ca Dunarea sa-nece spumegand a tale osti."
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 02:18

One of the most common misconceptions are that the Xiong Nu were a pure ethnic group. They were a mixture of many different peoples to begin with.

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