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Super Balkan Union
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Antioxos View Drop Down
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Posts: 340 		  Quote Antioxos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Super Balkan Union
    Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 16:57
Something more the Byzantine actually preserve the Greco Roman tradition the real progress  of this culture came from the Western Europe.
The spiritually bios of the Byzantium was focus on the politically and doctrine controversy with the Western Christendom.   
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 17:31
Patrinos, you use words like "prove", "argument", "sources" . Who am I to prove you anything especially if you don't want this? But let uscontinue our friendlu discussion.
 
 
Originally posted by Patrinos


I haven't ever heard about that.I've just heard about ancient Greeks' texts that were scraped of... I think you like this style of response.

Learn languages of your neighbours and find some information. Many of it will not be true but at least you will have an opportunity to force youto think a bit Smile But seriously, I may translate you parts of a Bulgarian publication where this question was considered. And I assure you there is no demonizing of anybody. Everything was explained by economical reasons.



Despite your ironic tone I will coninue...
Embarrassed
 
 
But...do you think that Slavs were identical culturally before their coming to the Balkans and after? I suppose that you deny any Byzantine influence.To be more caustic I don't think that Slavs contributed...enough in what we call Byzantine culture.
You don't think just because your national myth doesn't allow you to think so. It is because for any argument you will find your contr-argument  of the type of ("Zelia is a Greek word for cabbage"). You are not open to think in that direction.
 
 
For example the Slavs who established in Peloponnesus were some warriors and shepherds and anything is left from them,I mean culturally,only some toponyms.
How do you know?  That is a rhetorrical question. I do not expect any answer.
 
 
Well the Greeks in Renaissance played an important role but not the major,who can deny it? Except you have arguments to proove that these Greeks who fled to Italy after 1453 were useless.Don't be afraid to demythologize our history...
 
I will not comment this pearl. I basically do not deny anything but from words of Antioxos I understood that immigration of Byzantines was the major reason for european Renaissance.
 
So now Greek culture from just a Mediterranean culture variant became just a Balkan culture variant...lol
Did I say so? No.
 
OK,we know the Thracian contribution in Greek culture(Dionysus(good choise by the Greekslol,Orpheus),but your undervaluation towards Greek culture either shows lack of knowledge or just prejudice against the permanently puffing up neighbors...
 
Patrinos, you definitely know Greek culture better. And yes, most likely I have a prejustice against my puffing up neighbours. But denial of cultural and linguistical assimilation of Thracians is definitely not "underevaluation towards Greek culture". But forget about Thracians. It would be stupid to deny major, even determining role of Greek and Byzantine literature in let us say Bulgarian culture. But I do not really understand this extrapolation that is made for music, religion, customs whatever else. And you, personally, do that many times. Smile
 
 
Well,about Kukuzelis now.His name doesn't only sound Greek,but it is Greek,and not a christian Greek.He lived in a Greek colony,where Greeks lived until the late Byzantine times,he spoke Greek...my guess is that he is Greek...but thats not our subject.
 
Yeah, tell Polish that Wieniawski is Russian or Finn the same regarding Sibelius and learn many new words LOL 
 
 

Help me to find your right explanation,because I only saw something about Greek authorities who pushed them to be hellenised...Greek authorities
when and where?During the Ottomans slavery and within the Ottoman state???Its not convinsing.
 
Patrinos, the key word here is "convincing". Whatever I will post will not be convincing for you. Especially regarding that question. Because most of my arguments will be from articles citing Bulgarian newspapers of that time. Will you believe them? No. Why should I bother then? Note, that I do not try to pursuade you that these are only true sources. I think Greek articles are true as well, they are just about different aspect of the truth Wink
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Ponce de Leon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 17:38
If you do not want the official language of the balkans to be English, make it Spanish.

Who does not love that beautiful language?
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Patrinos View Drop Down
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Posts: 473 		  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 18:32
Originally posted by Anton


Learn languages of your neighbours and find some information. Many of it will not be true but at least you will have an opportunity to force youto think a bit But seriously, I may translate you parts of a Bulgarian publication where this question was considered. And I assure you there is no demonizing of anybody. Everything was explained by economical reasons.


In the begging you said it like some evil Greeks scraped of Slavonic texts from books as equalizing to the burning of books in the West. But if that happened, and it happened to Greek texts for sure, has nothing to do with the reasons that Westerners burnt books...it was a pointless anaphora...


Originally posted by Anton


You don't think just because your national myth doesn't allow you to think so. It is because for any argument you will find your contr-argument of the type of ("Zelia is a Greek word for cabbage"). You are not open to think in that direction.

Ok, lets all Greeks take off our ethnicmyth-glasses to see the truth...
Btw I didn’t get your example... and zelia(ζήλια) means jealousy in greek.


Originally posted by Anton


I will not comment this pearl. I basically do not deny anything but from words of Antioxos I understood that immigration of Byzantines was the major reason for european Renaissance.

The Greek contribution in Renaissance was decisive but our Italiani neighbors did a great job too...Do you like "decisive" more than "major"?


Originally posted by Anton


Did I say so? No.

Why don’t you admit that you exaggerated before??

Originally posted by Anton


Yeah, tell Polish that Wieniawski is Russian or Finn the same regarding Sibelius and learn many new words


So Kukuzelis was a early Grekoman?...


Originally posted by Anton


Patrinos, the key word here is "convincing". Whatever I will post will not be convincing for you. Especially regarding that question. Because most of my arguments will be from articles citing Bulgarian newspapers of that time. Will you believe them? No. Why should I bother then? Note, that I do not try to pursuade you that these are only true sources. I think Greek articles are true as well, they are just about different aspect of the truth


I would like to hear concisely your version of this “hellenization” by force...



Edited by Patrinos - 08-Feb-2007 at 18:33
"Hellenes are crazy but they have a wise God"
Kolokotronis
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 19:22
Originally posted by Patrinos


In the begging you said it like some evil Greeks scraped of Slavonic texts from books as equalizing to the burning of books in the West. But if that happened, and it happened to Greek texts for sure, has nothing to do with the reasons that Westerners burnt books...it was a pointless anaphora...
You apply your black-and-white understanding of the Universe to my words. Don't do that. What I said was that Greeks behaved in the same barbarian way as your other neighbours. Not more, not less. All my examples were to help me to illustrate you howwrong is all that crap regarding cultural superiority and influences in one way, respect to the prisoners of war etc.  Pity, because if you didn't understand this, we should start from the very beggining.
 
 

 
Ok, lets all Greeks take off our ethnicmyth-glasses to see the truth...
Btw I didnt get your example... and zelia(ζήλια) means jealousy in greek.
 
All the more. In Bulgarian (and Thracian as well Wink) "zelka" or "zele" means "cabbage" or "greens". I don't know where I heard this tale and do not know whether it is true but when somebody somewhere asked him what did he eat today he unswered "Kuku zele" or something of that sort which was mix of Greek and Bulgarian words. I don't know where did this story come from but if I find it in any source I will consider the question of ethnicity of Kukuzel as precluded Wink



The Greek contribution in Renaissance was decisive but our Italiani neighbors did a great job too...Do you like "decisive" more than "major"?
 
Patrinos, the only thing that I do not like really is when a typical barbarian who even didn't finish school  yet asks me what did I do when he built acropolis. Wacko




So Kukuzelis was a early Grekoman?...
The earliest Grekoman was Alexander the Great LOL  Well, well I am just  kidding. Kukuzel did his job. And did it very well. How can you call Grekoman a person who, according to wiki "About 90 of his works in all church styles have survived until today, possibly the most famous one being the Chandelier of the Bulgarian Woman dedicated to his mother that, according to some researchers, contains elements of traditional Bulgarian mourning songs"?
 


I would like to hear concisely your version of this hellenization by force...
 
Do you feel guilty that you always return to that question? Wink How do you explain the fact of existance of βουλγαρίζοντες? And who are they by the way?


Edited by Anton - 08-Feb-2007 at 19:42
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Patrinos View Drop Down
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Posts: 473 		  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 09:07
Originally posted by Anton

The earliest Grekoman was Alexander the Great   Well, well I am just kidding. Kukuzel did his job. And did it very well. How can you call Grekoman a person who, according to wiki "About 90 of his works in all church styles have survived until today, possibly the most famous one being the Chandelier of the Bulgarian Woman dedicated to his mother that, according to some researchers, contains elements of traditional Bulgarian mourning songs"?

Ok he loved his mother...
Btw I was not kiding when I said that my neighbor has this surname.


Originally posted by Anton

Patrinos, the only thing that I do not like really is when a typical barbarian who even didn't finish school yet asks me what did I do when he built acropolis.

I understand that it's annoying but when we say it, we say it with a sense of humor...not very funny?


Originally posted by Anton

Do you feel guilty that you always return to that question? .

Think it again...If I felt guilty I would try to avoid this discussion.


Originally posted by Anton

How do you explain the fact of existance of βουλγαρίζοντες? And who are they by the way?

For sure βουλγαρίζοντες weren't Greek-speakers...
    
"Hellenes are crazy but they have a wise God"
Kolokotronis
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 10:21
Smile
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Patrinos View Drop Down
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Posts: 473 		  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 10:43
A Balkanian discussion that ended with smilies
Are we so close to the Balkan Union?
"Hellenes are crazy but they have a wise God"
Kolokotronis
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Hellios View Drop Down
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 16:52
Patrinos, you've made it clear you're a Greek nationalist. Wink
Anton, you've made clear your prejudice against "almost every Greek". Smile
Good going guys.
 
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 17:12
 Sorry about that. Tongue
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pekau View Drop Down
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 17:14
Originally posted by Hellios

Patrinos, you've made it clear you're a Greek nationalist. Wink
Anton, you've made clear your prejudice against "almost every Greek". Smile
Good going guys.
 
 
Ah... the irony...
     
   
Join us.
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Athanasios View Drop Down
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Posts: 546 		  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 08:03
Why are we talking about a Balkan union...Disapprove? Soonly the bigger part of the Balkan Peninsula will be part of the E.U.... European union===Balkan union. Want it or not... And this discussion Patrinos ended with smiles because every trying to create a conflict flame from nowhere is for laughs... For god's sake the Balkan wars ended a century ago, get on with it guys and enjoy the cultural and economic benefits of the European familyWink

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