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History of the Romanians and Vlachs (271-1310)

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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: History of the Romanians and Vlachs (271-1310)
    Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 19:36
Originally posted by dorian

2. The Vlachs, the Arvanites, the slavophone Greeks are not more than 500,000 so the rest of the Greeks speak only greek.
 
 
This does not coincide with the data provided by the League of the Arvanites. I dont know much abot the slavophonic and the vlachs, but check your numbers regarding arvanites
 
Originally posted by dorian

3. I have a friend who is Vlach from Macedonia, she doesn't speak this language, her parents neither. They know no one in their village to be anything else than ethnic Greek. All of the Vlachs there know their history and greek origin which has survived from the parents to the children through the centuries. There is no group of Vlachs in Greece to claim any relationship with Romania. 
  
 
I believe that you have a vlach friend who doesnt speak vlach, this shows that their culture found a hostile ground in modern greece. They are disspearing. Their cousins in albania still speak vlach.
And regarding the relationship with romania, that can be only linguistical. Have you ever been in the country (or small town) of Agrino (near Ioannina)?
 
Originally posted by dorian

4. The Greek Epirotes were secluded just like the Macedonians behind the high mountains of Pindus and Olympos respectively that's why they were not civilised. The Epirotes and the Illyrians were neighbours so they affected each other. The Arvanites came from the region of Northern Epirus and they consisted of arvanitophone Greeks, people of Greco-Illyrian origin and some Albanians. Northern Epirus was inhabited mostly by Greeks.  So the fact that now belongs to Albania doesn't mean that 8 centuries ago only Albanians lived there. Even now the greek population there is large. If you talk to Arvanite Greeks, they will say about their ancient culture and their greekness. The "Arvinitic Club of Greece" doesn't speak about albanian origin.
  
 
Speaking about arvanitophonic greeks coming from epirus??What in the world made them learn albanian?Where (in which schools) did they learn that?And if they were constrained to learn that, how come they preserved it until today, even though they lived in the beloved mother country of Hellas?Some of those fleed to Italy during the ottoman occupation, and still preserve the albanian language even there. They sing a song about "the beautiful morea" in albanian...Of course northern epirus never was completely inhabitated by albanians, and the southern epirus never was inhabitated exclusively by greeks. And you know what distinguished the ones from the others?Not the genes (they intermarried) but the culture. The greeks spoke greek at home, and the albanians albanian. So, this arvanitophonic, even today preserve their ancient language, but no, they are hellenic???!They are loyal greek citizens, but do not deny their culture.
 
Originally posted by dorian

 The Greeks who came to Greece the last decade from Albania along with Albanians, are considered Albanians by the rest of Greeks, some of them have albanian names most of them don't know very good the greek language. This is something like the case of Arvanites. They were disputable coz of their language. So, don't be so sure about the "albanian" origin of Vorioepirotes athletes who came to Greece and their memory..
 
As i already posted before, they were not all from vorioepirus, some of them are Ghegue, northern albanians. And if somebody has no memory, if he does not know a language, how can you tell what is he?Or just because he is a good athlete he should be greek?Nationality means culture, names, language, customs etc.What makes you say that a muslim albanian who has not a clue about greek culture, can be greek?And why others arent?
 
 
Originally posted by dorian

5. Even if the Arvanites or the Vlachs were not Greeks, after so many centuries what's the..."percentage" of the initial origin of their descendants after the intermarriage with the Greeks and the biologic assimilation into the greek population? You know, the child of a greek and an albanian parent is of greek-albanian origin, not of albanian only. So, even if the Arvanites were Albanians, the Arvanites now are people who have some distant or slight albanian origin, and they are called Arvanites because of the preserved arvanitic language or remembrance of some albanian contribution in their family. All these, suppositively...
 
That percentage is so high to make them stick to their culture and preserve that, even though they had no schools, no books, nothing. The hellenic culture is highly asimilative, but they were never totally asimilated. As you wrote in another thread, lets not talk about geneticsWink
 
P.S do not edit your posts 4 days later, nobody will notice that
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 10:48
No more attention from my side to racist posts against everything greek.
 
Originally posted by Menumorut

    I just took the information from
here
 
Regarding the research was proposed by Menumorut, where are the Greek Vlachs in it? And why they are absent?
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 12:08
You mean the Vlachs from Greece?

They are named Aromuns, like the other Balkanic Vlachs.



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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 08:35

If you want to call them "Vlachs of Greece" it's ok.

Yeah, where are they? In this research there are Aromuns from Albania, from Romania and from FYROM. Where are the Aromuns from Greece?

One of the three hypotheses in this research is that the Vlachs are Romomanophonic Greeks (which is rejected) and they study all the other Vlachs exempt from the Vlachs of Greece who are (probably) the Romanophonic Greeks...

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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 09:16
    I know nothing more than you.


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  Quote GuardOfHistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 14:08

Concerning the presence of vlachs in the southern Balkans,south of the river Danube
until the 14th century
These vlachs did not constitute a united people on the contrary they were spread
all over the southern Balkans and they pledged allegiance only to their local  rulers
and sometimes to the Byzantine authorities.

 

*-976 A.D. vlach road-guards ambushed and murdered David,the brother of the Bulgarian tzar Samuel.
These vlachs were in Byzantine imperial service and they probably had the duty of securing the royal highways.
The place of the ambush was somewhere between the town of Kastoria and the lake Prespa,a place called "Fair Oaks".
(western Macedonia)(source:Skylitzes)


*-Around 980 A.D. Constantinus VII mentioned the presence of latin-speaking peasants in illyricum,
from Dyrrachion to the coasts of Dalmatia (source:"De administrando Imperio")

*- 1020 A.D. Emperor Basil II reorganised the church at the theme of Bulgaria.
A vlach bishopric was created somewhere near the lakes Ochrid and Prespa under
the jurisdiction of the archdiocese of Ochrid.


 
*- 1081 Bohemund,son of Robert Guiscard,leading his Italian-Norman army in Epirus
captured the castle of Ioannina and the town of Arta with the aid of  some anti-Byzantine vlachs.


* During the reign of Manuel Komnenos(1143-1180),vlach soldiers(vlachs from Bulgaria probably)
 were used against the Hungarians by the Byzantine general Leon Vatatzes(source: kinammos,Byzantine historian) 

History of Bulgarian vlachs
[[*-1186 Rebellion of the Bulgarians and the vlachs of Bulgaria against the Byzantine emperor.
leaders of the rebellion were three vlach brothers,Peter,Assan and John.Great victories against the
Byzantines in 1187,1192,1194 with the help of the Cumans.

*-1197 After the assasination of Peter and Assan,John became the sole leader of the Bulgarians
and the vlachs of Bulgaria.

*-1203 Cardinal Leon of the Catholic church crowned John(Ioannitza) king of the vlachs and Bulgarians.

*-1205 Battle of Adrianople.A joint force of Bulgarian vlachs,Bulgarians and Cumans under
the command of Ioannitza defeated the army of Balduin,Latin emperor of Constantinople.
300 Frankish knights perished in the battle.Balduin was taken prisoner in Bulgaria
and was eventually executed.


*-1207 Ioannitza attempted to besiege Thessalonica,but he was assasinated by one of his Cuman generals.]]

*-1236 Michael II Angelos,Despot of Epirus, transfered Greek vlach soldiers from Epirus to Corfu in order
to strengthen the defenses of the island.

*-1258 Michael II Angelos allied with the Frankish kingdoms of Peloponese against the Nicean empire
The two opponents clashed at the battle of Pelagonia.John I,son of the Despot of Epirus,was the leader of a vlach contigent.
This contigent was sent as an auxiliary force by his father-in-law,Taronas,a hereditary leader of the Greek vlachs of Thessaly
The Epirotans withdrew from the battle and the Frankish troops were defeated by the Nicean troops.

*-Thessaly,in central Greece,was called Great Vlachia in the 13th century and later because of the high density of the vlach population in the
region.Nicetas Honiatis mentions the name Great Vlachia("Megalovlahia")
After the death of Michael II Angelos,Despot of Epirus,his son John I became ruler of the semi-independent
Greek-vlach principality in Thessaly.This principality included Thessaly and some areas southern,in central Greece.
John I ruled from 1271 until 1295.The capital of this state was the fortified town of New Patras,somewhere in southern Thessaly.The army
was organised according to the feudal system and the Thessalian cavalry force was not negligible.

*-1271 John I,ruler of the Great Vlachia, faced an invasion of Byzantine imperial troops,consisting mainly of Cuman and Turk mercenaries,
His troops were defeated and the Byzantine troops captured the capital,New Patras.John managed to escape from the besiegers,dressed as a
peasant.He formed an alliance with Jean de la Roche,duke of Athens,and with the help of the Frankish knights managed to defeat
the imperial troops.

*-1295 John I died.His succesor and son,Constantine,started a war against the
principality of Epirus because of territorial claims.

*-1303 Constantine dies.Ruler of Great Vlachia becomes his son, John II.

*-1304 The epirotans invaded the principality of Thessaly.They retrieted,afraid of the 
size of the joint Frankothessalian force under the command of Guido II de la Roche,Duke of Athens.
(900 Frankish knights,6.000 Greek vlach cavalry,30.000 infantry)

*-1318 After the death of John II,the Catalans invaded Thessaly and destroyed the principality.
This was the end of the semi-independent state of Thessaly.

*-1399 Esau Buondelmonte,Despot of Epirus,recruited local Greek vlach soldiers against the raiding albanian clans.




 



Edited by GuardOfHistory - 13-Jul-2006 at 09:20
Vlachs and Arvanites,THE GUARDS of Hellenism
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 10:04
I was always interested what are these talks about Vlach origin of Asenides are based on? Can you point me to some of the arguments?
Thank you.
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 10:20
Originally posted by Menumorut

    I know nothing more than you.

 
So, you can see how accurate it is... But regarding the rest of Vlachs, they don't have any specific genetical relationship to each other nor to the Romanians. That's what this study says. They are not Romanians...
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 12:18
Originally posted by Anton

I was always interested what are these talks about Vlach origin of Asenides are based on? Can you point me to some of the arguments?
Thank you.
 
The main one is that they are specifically referred to as Vlachs by their contemporary Byzantine historian Nicetas Choniates.
 
For an introductory discussion, see below.
 
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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 12:38
Thank you Decebal!
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  Quote Lyngos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 13:31
Arber Z wrote:
 
f the Vlachs are Hellenes, if the slavophonic Greeks from Macedonia region  (not FYROM) are Hellenes, if the arvanites are hellenes, if the orthodoxe albanians are hellenes, if the pontian grecophonic muslim community is hellene etc etc, what is not hellene? And who are the real descendants of the old hellenes?
Prej heshtjes...!
 
 
The Vlachs are first in line as the TRUE descendants of the ancient Hellenes.
The other people mentioned above were also of Hellenic origins or Hellenized.
If they were something else, why not CREATE something else?
Why fight and die for the creation of a modern-state that was named as "Hellas" ?
The true is, that only later, once the western pro-liberal movements arrived in europe and ultimately in the Balkans and Greece, various "autonomous" movements were created.
Why not fight for an Albania away from the Ottomans in 1800?
Or for a free "Macedonia" ?
What about a free "Muslim State" within Hellas?
But then...........the question is: What were the ancenstors of today's Muslims asking for the above new Muslim State?
Maybe indigenous local  Christian Hellenic populations, that under the Ottoman sword they were forced to become Muslims?
Would that make them ETHNIC Turks?
Would or should such FORCED Muslim changing of religion count?
Should we judge people by their DNA or by their will to be what they want, belong where they want and believe freely without State and/or other Religious interventions?
And if they want to be something that ALREADY exists, then..what?
Regards to all.........L
George sofoklis Tsapanos
Visalia,Ca

"{Vlachs, the autochthonous
of the Hellenic peninsula".
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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 13:46
I really cannot understand the agony of some compatriots of mine,to prove thay Vlachs are genetically 100% greek. 
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 13:58
 
The Vlachs are first in line as the TRUE descendants of the ancient Hellenes.
 
Really?Why that (please do not mention genetics). Why would hellenes speak a latin language, whilst living in the middle of grecophonic hellenes? And if this vlachs were just a romance people, totally differing from today romanians, how do you explain that they are highly intelligible between each-other? Actually every romanian understands perfectly vlach language, even though, at least for 8 centuries, the languages evoluted in different paths.
 
 
The other people mentioned above were also of Hellenic origins or Hellenized.
If they were something else, why not CREATE something else?
Why fight and die for the creation of a modern-state that was named as "Hellas" ?
The true is, that only later, once the western pro-liberal movements arrived in europe and ultimately in the Balkans and Greece, various "autonomous" movements were created.
 
It is true, the albanians of greece (arvanites) fought for their country (hellas). But if you want to know even more, there were continuous movements for creating a Greco-albanian state (until the 1880s). This movements were suported by albanians from albania (and Kosova), from the arvanites, and also from some greek politicians. But this movement was unsuccesful, as in Greece they built a religious country, which would discriminate the albanians (that as you know belong to three different faiths). When the albanian intellectuals were about to decide about the official alphabet for the albanian language, firstly they thought of the hellenic alphabet, but later, feeling the hostility showed by some politicians of the time (probably orthodox fundamentalists) decided to use latin alphabet (still in use today). You will not find this in the official histories of greece or albania, but I 've had the chance to read original documents, and also contemporary histories (last half of XIX century). If you never heard about the project of a greco-albanian state, then you can ask also Kotsos (member of this forum), who is arvanite himself, or ask information to the League of the Arvanites of Hellas (I can give you the adress.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 14:16
Originally posted by Arbλr Z

 It is true, the albanians of greece (arvanites) fought for their country (hellas).
What????
Did or do you see many arvanites to claim theirs albanian origin?


Edited by akritas - 27-Jun-2006 at 14:19
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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 14:22
Originally posted by Digenis

I really cannot understand the agony of some compatriots of mine,to prove thay Vlachs are genetically 100% greek. 


I also,cannot understand the agony of some Albanians to prove that Arvanites are Albanians (!) -(i am not speaking for genetical nonsense)
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 19:55

Arvanite Greeks some times are even more fanatic for example against an Albanian who killed someone here. I've heared Arvanites to call the Vorioepirotes (who are Greeks) "Albanians" and dispute their "greekness".

If we have to believe Arber, then they are the only people who don't want to have any relationship with their... "Albanian compatriots".
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 20:25
Originally posted by dorian

Arvanite Greeks some times are even more fanatic for example against an Albanian who killed someone here. I've heared Arvanites to call the Vorioepirotes (who are Greeks) "Albanians" and dispute their "greekness".

If we have to believe Arber, then they are the only people who don't want to have any relationship with their... "Albanian compatriots".
 
Someone who killed somebody deserves to be hated, even by his own family. Now, check the opera of the leaders of the Arvanite League, and you will understand what do they claim. I do not claim they are albanian, they are greek, and they have greek consience. But regarding their origin, and the origin of their culture (I never mentioned genetics), I think it speaks itself. They are not compatriots of me, as they are greek citizens (loyal), but certainly they are not of a hellenic origin (culturally, not genetically).
And Digenis, try to stay calm, you dont have to be agressive. I never showed agony on defending anything. Actually there is nothing to defend, because even if (hypothetically) the arvanites were albanian propper, if the slavophonic were bulgarians, and if the romanophonic were romanian, there would be no risks for modern greece. At least for Albania, there will never be any territorial claims to greece (we are going toward integration hopefully). But what I would like to see is the greek state helping this cultural communities preserve their culture. It is impressive, but Greece is very hostile towards other cultures (languages, religion, origin etc.). Anyway, you and no other, have the right to comment my posts as "agony or passion". At least explain what did you find offensive to yourself or your country. I think that WE  dont understand YOU, and your passion or agony as you can read all over the forum.
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 20:44

Look, if they were genetically Albanians, now they are mixed with the Greeks through the centuries so we cannot talk about pure albanian origin. That's what happens with every population who enter another country. 

Regarding my example you know what I mean... I mean the public opinion about a part of Albanians who live in Greece now. They are more fanatic.
 
But you don't want to talk about genetics...  I'm with you..
 
Let's not discuss about it anymore
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 21:13
This is a history forum, it makes sense talking about culture and historical events, but genetics???
Check this
 
Anyway, just searching on google with this keywords "arvanitis, albanian" you  can see that the terms are associated and related closely. Of course they are and they feel greek citizens. Actually I never pretended them to be something else, I was just talking abut their culture. But probably I was just misunderstood.
 
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 03:24

As usual no answer in my question if there is and statement from Arvaniti from the suppposing Albanian origin. But Botsaris, Makrugiannis,Kolokotronis and many others spoken for Greek Arvanites against the Albanians and the Turkish.

The same of course and for the Vlachs.Because as I see try again to connect genetics and ethnicity because their historical argyments are weak.
 
Some intresting quotes from a known Greek Vlach Asterios Koukoudis
 
Look, lad, the Greki arent more Greek than we are. We may be Vlachs, they may be Greki, but all together we make up the Greeks.
 
Greki is the Latin form of the  Greek
 
Apart from the indisputable fact of the Vlachs existence, my main objective is to show how the Vlach-speaking populations have lived with and integrated with their Greek-speaking and non-Greek-speaking fellow-travellers, and also to illustrate their very important contribution to the shaping of Romiosyni (Editors note: Romiosyni is one of the senses of Greek self-identity, especially in the centuries before modern Hellenism took root) and the creation of modern Greece and the modern Greek identity.
 
 


Edited by akritas - 28-Jun-2006 at 03:25
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