Scottish Celts or Gaul Celts?

Celt is a really controversial world. People use it to mean alot of different things, which aren't really related.

In its proper, academic sense, Celtic refers to a culture distinguished by material artifacts, social custom, religion, and language - but not by race. It originates in central Europe and the culture spreads outward across Europe, reaching populations on the Atlantic through diffusion rather than migration.

Some people use it to refer to the Gaelic (etc) speaking inhabitants of the British Isles, since they retained Celtic culture and languages the longest. Scotland, Wales, Ireland, as well as regions like Cornwall and the Isle of Man, are often referred to as the "Celtic fringe". Some people get up in arms about this, but it's accurate enough if you look at things from a linguistic point of view. There's not really a good word: the Welsh, Manx and Cornish aren't Gaelic, and if you called them "Britons" you'd probably upset the English. Whatever the case may be, a large proportion of the inhabitants of those areas have ancestors who were there long before Celtic culture existed, and unlike other parts of the islands, were not as signifigantly impacted by things like the arrival of the Saxons.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the influence of Celtic culture was limited in alot of these areas; only about a quarter of the sites from Ireland during that period show any trace of the culture.

"Gaul" and "Gael" are two different things. Gaul comes from Latin Gallus, Gael comes from Gaelic G�idheal or Gaedheal. The Gauls were a culture in France during the Celtic period. The Gaels are a group out of Ireland, some of whom migrated to Scotland (the Scoti), beginning in Roman times, and replaced the Picts.

Druids are originally from the British Isles, probably England, but there might have been something similar among the Picts in Scotland and there were certainly druids among some of the Irish groups (possibly including the Scoti). Some people think that the druids were a Celtic imitation of an earlier religion among the pre-Celtic cultures of the British Isles (the same cultures that built the stone circles). Whatever the case, druids spread to northern France and Belgium.

I don't think the Gauls ever went to Scotland, at least not in numbers, but there was considerable cross-channel traffic between northern France / Belgium and southern England. Some of the Britons, particularly in the southeast, were related to Continental populations.
    
    

Edited by edgewaters - 16-Jun-2006 at 04:10

Originally posted by YusakuJon3 I was about to ask a question about whether the Gauls that Caesar conquered were Celtic or not.� It seems that Roman sources have described them as a Celtic peoples, and yet they seem to have already become distinct from the Britons and Hibernians (Irish).�

They were different. No Roman account describes the Britons as "Celtic", though Caesar mentions that parts of southeast England had been colonized by the Belgae (in the area of the Netherlands) - Belgae were considered half-Celtic, half-Germanic.

It's actually the other way around than you're thinking. The word Celt comes from the Romans and they originally used it to describe tribes from the Alps who moved into the Po Valley. Afterwards they used it to describe the common culture of the groups found from Austria to France to Spain. Presumably, the Romans were in a position to say what a Celt was, having had so much contact (in war, in trade, in diplomacy) with the Celtic cultures. They seemed to feel the Britons were a different culture, just as they described the Germanics as a different culture. So, the Gauls, Cisalpine Gauls, Transalpine Gauls, Celtiberians etc are the "real" Celts; if anything, it is the Britons who were not Celtic but some sort of synthesis of Celtic culture and something else, some sort of earlier native Atlantic culture (the one which constructed the stone circles).
    

We may never know what their stories were or what language they used, much like many of the other peoples that Rome had conquered in its imperial phase.

Gaelic is still spoken in Scotland and Ireland, Manx is alive too, and even the Welsh language - probably very very similar to that of the Britons in England - is still around. Their stories will likely remain a mystery, as will such things as the nature of the druidic religion. However, some fragments of rural folk-tales in various parts of England, particularly those associated with specific places or landmarks, probably have some traces of ancient pre-Roman mythology in them (particularly in areas which were less displaced by Saxon and Norse culture, eg, Wales, Cornwall, the south and west of Ireland, etc).

Edited by edgewaters - 17-Jun-2006 at 00:57

Originally posted by Menumorut      What could you say about the Galatians in Minor Asia?

Mercenary, tribal central Europeans with a long tradition of employment by Greeks and many of the Hellenistic cultures (even Egypt, apparently).

A massive horde of them erupted into Greece in 279 BC. The main body, under the leadership of Brennus, ravaged Macedonia, smashed the defenses at Thermopylae, and partially sacked Delphi before being forced to withdraw (sacking Epirus on their way out). A smaller group, 20 000 strong, under the leadership of Leonnorius, broke away in Macedonia and made to sack Thrace, then crossed to Byzantium and sieged it (forcing them to pay tribute). All of these groups were either defeated, or hired as mercenaries - every Hellenistic army for some decades afterwards featured huge numbers of Celtic mercenaries, including Pyrrhus's forces. The group that sieged Byzantium was hired by Nicomedus of Bithynia (in Turkey) to fight in his wars against various rivals, which worked well and secured his reign and kingdom - so they were awarded land in central Anatolia. Which turned out to be a bad idea because once they were established they sacked Bithynia and a few other neighbouring states, inflicting a reign of terror on the area. City-states far and wide were forced to pay tribute, until Attalus came to the throne of Pergamum and refused to pay. The Galatians launched a large expedition against Pergamum, but were turned back after a number of defeats - Attalus had forged a confederation of numerous city-states to repulse them, and defeated them so severely they were contained for a time. While Attalus lived, the raids stopped.

After Attalus died in 197 BC, they began the raids again, but by this time Rome was a major power and it had made an alliance with Pergamum. The Galatians harassed Roman forces until a major expedition under Manlius Vulso invaded Galatia and shattered their armies. They eventually became a province, and were apparently very loyal to the Romans thereafter, but were not an important province in the empire. They remained a province through the Byzantinian era, until they were conquered and absorbed by Seljuk Turks in the 11th century. By this time, however, they were not a distinct population; they didn't speak a Celtic tongue anymore and were fully assimilated by Greco-Roman culture.


    
    
    
    

Edited by edgewaters - 17-Jun-2006 at 11:07

Originally posted by edgewaters Gaelic is still spoken in Scotland and Ireland, Manx is alive too, and even the Welsh language - probably very very similar to that of the Britons in England - is still around. Their stories will likely remain a mystery, as will such things as the nature of the druidic religion. However, some fragments of rural folk-tales in various parts of England, particularly those associated with specific places or landmarks, probably have some traces of ancient pre-Roman mythology in them (particularly in areas which were less displaced by Saxon and Norse culture, eg, Wales, Cornwall, the south and west of Ireland, etc).

Originally posted by YusakuJon3 That was an interesting series of responses.� So what the Romans called "Celtic" were actually people distinct from each other?�

Hmmm ... not exactly ... they were all very similar, culturally - wore the same clothes, had the same technology, lived the same way, spoke very similar languages. They just weren't related much, genetically speaking. Although the Britons were apparently quite distinct, with their druids and blue woad tatooing, but in many respects very similar.

And yet, some of the histories that I've read speak of a Celtic civilization which emerged from just north of the Alps and east of the Rhine to displace and/or absorb older prehistoric cultures in the west and across the channels in England and Ireland.�

Right, the culture did; there just wasn't much movement of peoples as a rule. Think of it like the spreading of American culture, people in China eat cheeseburgers and wear jeans and listen to pop music, but not because the Americans migrated en masse and displaced the people living there.
    

Edited by edgewaters - 21-Jun-2006 at 09:05

Originally posted by edgewaters There's not really a good word: the Welsh, Manx and Cornish aren't Gaelic, and if you called them "Britons" you'd probably upset the English.

Well it would be true for the Welsh. I honestly haven't read much on the others, but from what I have read the Britons escaped the large Saxon invason and fled to modern day Wales. Those who didn't from what I understand were mostly killed or enslaved. The Saxons weren't about converting people.

I haven't read much on the Celtic Iberians. But speaking of them, I read a few years back that the Irish actually came from the Northern Iberian peninsula, where the Celtic Iberians were. Do you know or heard anything about this? I always assumed people would have just migrated across the English channel, across the Island and then into Ireland.

I see, thanks for the information.

Originally posted by Polish Rob One thing is for sure, Celtic's originated from the steppe lands of Asia, and migrated westward.�

Hmm, not really. The origins of the culture are in Switzerland/Austria and along the Danube. Krakow seems to have been the eastern limit of Celtic culture, with the exception of a movement out of Europe into Asia Minor (Galatia). However, they certainly were affected by technology and culture spreading out from the steppes, including language. Also, note that the spread of Celtic culture was usually independant of any movement of peoples.
    
    

Edited by edgewaters - 27-Jun-2006 at 09:26

Actually there is a celtic race. Haplotype shows that the Connacht haplotype associated with the celtic people occurs more frequently in areas that are historically considered as celt. THe Gallic language and those of the British islands were in variants of a celtic language.

Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 29-Jun-2006 at 06:42