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Topic ClosedFall of Constantinople 29th May 1453

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fall of Constantinople 29th May 1453
    Posted: 30-May-2006 at 16:00
That's always been a question of mine too, Mortaza. I've seen it cited before, but I always wondered how, with an army on the march, he was able to disperse some of his soldiers as colonists in conquered areas.
 
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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 16:06
If I am not wrong, his army was not so big. He can put some general to lead cities, but he cant sustain cities, with his soldiers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 16:13
I believe that it was very necessary for Constantinople to fall. It is a good thing in many respects actually.
My reason for saying that is because if Constantinople did not fall, then the christian merchants of Europe wouldnt try a dashing way to find another route to Asia (i.e the Atlantic Ocean!) and Europe might not have discovered for itself the New World for many more generations!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 19:14
Originally posted by Mortaza

If I am not wrong, his army was not so big. He can put some general to lead cities, but he cant sustain cities, with his soldiers.


Some of the cities were the classic "polis" = cities.
Some started as military garissons -"katoikiai"
And some other as temporary military settlements -"phrouria"which became permanent.
The cities were populated by:
1.Veterans of his army (reinforcements were being sent from Macedonia to substitute these veterans)
2.Emigrants from Greece..Some went to the cities after the foundation,but the vast majority was coninously populating the cities for the years after the foundation.
3.Native population-Living in the surrounding areas.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 03:35
Originally posted by Digenis



2.As for Alexander:
cities destroyed:   0 (the palace of Persepolis burnt)
 
Thebes, Gaza, Tyre and countless others in the East.
 
Keep in mind that most of the "Alexandrias" were not build from scratch (as e.g. the one in Egypt), most of them were simply renamings of already existing cities...
 
 
 


Edited by Yiannis - 31-May-2006 at 03:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 06:07
I don't think Alexander was an idealist hero !
Such a view of the man could be a result of:
-his own propaganda
-the legend about his name in every corner of the known world after his death
-new Greek silly nationalism

It just out of historical reality comparing him (despite the kills he caused) with nomad warlords (or even Mehmed II)
Either by propaganda or by good purpose,his campaign included except conquests of cities and massacres an aspect of providing civilization too.

Back to the topic.
           
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 11:04
He doesn't kill thousands and destroys cities!
 
Sure, he was just a friendly, peaceful guy, who provided civilisation to barbarians. He had to burn barbarians and their inferior civilisation in order to colonise and assimilate, and rape, and pillage and so on. What a peaceful gay!
 
new Greek silly nationalism
 
Com'on, he lived two millenias before Montaigne, nationalism wasn't even invented yet...
 
It just out of historical reality comparing him (despite the kills he caused)
 
Because he was a Turk and Alexander was a great, wise Greek (actually Macedonian) warior who "liberated" Persia?LOL
 
his campaign included except conquests of cities and massacres an aspect of providing civilization too.
 
Yeah, I see what you try to mean. Fall of Istanbul was a great disaster for the great Greek nation and bad Muslims captured the city you mean, right? But sorry dissappoint you again, after thousands of topics on the same theme! The fellow Rums of Istanbul greeted Mehmed as their sultan basileos... And it had nothing to do with modern Greeks who actually have nothing to do with Byzantines except their language. Face it...
 
And kotumeyil,
 
That's one of the greatest gifts of our ancestors to us. Thanks Mehmed Khan that I can have my Tekirdag (it's not a commercial BTW)with my melon and peynir near the bosphorus after a delicious meal of kalamar and fillet fish! And Diegenis, you can do nothing about it! Muhahaha...Big smile
Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 15:54
Originally posted by Bashibozuk

He doesn't kill thousands and destroys cities!
 
Sure, he was just a friendly, peaceful guy, who provided civilisation to barbarians. He had to burn barbarians and their inferior civilisation in order to colonise and assimilate, and rape, and pillage and so on. What a peaceful gay!

 
1.Actually i was writing about superman at this point ! LOLLOL
2.I m sorry to disappoint any racist feelings of yours,but Mohamed II was not heterosexual at all Wink
see :http://www.posh-uk.org.uk/gay_lesb_figures.html
 
his campaign included except conquests of cities and massacres an aspect of providing civilization too.
 
Yeah, I see what you try to mean.

Time to visit your eye-specialist.


The fellow Rums of Istanbul greeted Mehmed as their sultan basileos...

Time to read texts some historians of the time.
ex:Georgios Frantzis mentions the smash of the heads of the women in churches floors,the enslavement and massacre ,after the entry of Turks.
But..this want help much,you are pretty sure ,everyone was really happy!
and things like historic sources  cannot change your mind ,of course.


 And it had nothing to do with modern Greeks who actually have nothing to do with Byzantines except their language. Face it...

Yes the modern Greeks sprung form the soil in 1821! LOL LOL
Face itBig smile
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its out of historical reality to compare Alexander and Mehmed II.
Not because Alexander was a wise Greek that liberated Persia.
Not because Mehmed was Turk.

Because:

Scientists followed Alexander in his campaign in Asia:
SCIENTISTS

A.Philosophers:
1.Kalisthenes
2.Anaxarchos from Abdera
3.Pyrron the "skeptikos"
4.Aischrion the Samian
B.Historians
1.Aristomenes Aristocleus
2.Marsyas
3.Kleitarchos
C.Poets
1.Agis from Argos
2.Choirilos
3.Python from Catania
D.Geographers
1.Nearchos from Creat
2.Androsthenes
3.Xenokrates
4.Aristoboulos
E.Architects
Deinokrates the Rhodian or Macedonian
F.Mechanics
1.Diades from Thessaly
2.Charias
G.Metal Engineers
Gorgos

ARTISTS

A.Actors
-Tragic 1.Athenodoros
            2.Aristocritos
-Comedians Lycon's team
B.Guitar players
1.Aristonikos
2.Aristocrates
3.Heracleitos
C.light-guitar players
1.Aristonimos
2.Athenodoros
3.Kratinos
D.Pipers
1.Euios
2.Dionysios
3.Hyperbolos
E.Orchestras
F.Magicians

I wonder if among the 80.000 of the main body of Mehmeds army,as well as the 200.000 in total(the other came mainly for looting and plundering),
there are mentioned philosophers and poets....

I was expecting some arguments rather than blind nationalistic yelling-
but you cannot expect from a chicken to fly Smile



Edited by Digenis - 31-May-2006 at 15:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 16:27

Ottoman science developed further owing to the personal interest of Mehmed II and the educational institutions which he established after the conquest of Istanbul. Consequently, some brilliant scholars emerged in the sixteenth century and made original contributions to science in this most vivid period of Ottoman history of science. Mehmed the Conqueror patronized the Islamic scholars and at the same time he ordered the Greek scholar from Trabzon Georgios Amirutzes and his son to translate the Geography book of Ptolemy into Arabic and to draw a world map. Mehmed II's interest in European culture had started while he was the own prince settled in the Manisa Palace. In 1445, Italian humanist Ciriaco d'Ancona and other Italians who were in the Palace taught him Roman and European history. While Patriarch Gennadious prepared his work on the Christian belief İ'tikad nme (The Book on Belief) for the sultan, Francesco Berlinghieri and Roberto Valtorio wished to present their works Geographia and De re Militari. On the other hand, Mehmed II encouraged the scholars of his time to produce works in their special fields; e.g. for the comparison of al-Ghazzali's criticisms of peripatetic philosophers regarding metaphysical matters, expressed in his work titled Tahafut al-Falasifa (The Incoherence of the Philosophers), and Ibn Rushd's answers to these criticisms in his work Tahafut al-Tahafut (The Incoherence of Incoherence), he ordered two scholars of his time, Hocazade and 'Ala al-Din al-Tusi, each to write a work on this subject (Adıvar, 1983; İhsanoğlu, 1992/1). No doubt the most notable scientist of the Conqueror's period is Ali Kuşu, a representative of the Samarkand tradition. The total number of his works on mathematics and astronomy is twelve. One of them is his commentary on the Zij-i Uluğ Bey in Persian. His two works in persian, namely, Risala fi'l-Hay'a (Treatise on Astronomy) and Risala Fi'l-Hisab (Treatise on Arithmetic) were taught in the Ottoman medreses. He rewrote these two works in Arabic with some additions under new titles, al-Fathiyya (Commemoration of Conquest) and al-Muhammadiyya (The Book dedicated to Sultan Muhammed), respectively. Another noteworthy scholar of the Bayezid II period (1481-1512) was Molla Ltfi. He wrote a treatise about the classification of sciences titled Mawdu'at-Ulum (Subjects of the Sciences) in Arabic and compiled a book on geometry titled Tad'if al-Madhbah (Duplication of Cube) which was partly translated from Greek. Mrm elebi (d. 1525) who was a well known astronomer and mathematician of this period and the grandson of Ali Kuşu and Kadızde-i Rm, contributed to the establishment of the scientific traditions of mathematics and astronomy and was renowned for the commentary he wrote on the Zij of Uluğ Bey. http://www.theottomans.org/english/art_culture/science.asp

Mehmed was interested in and supported science, too...


Edited by kotumeyil - 31-May-2006 at 16:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 16:31
Well I am sure someone(Fatih) who know 6 different langauge at his 20,  cannot become an intellectual but only a barbarian.Ermm

Edited by Mortaza - 31-May-2006 at 16:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 16:37
Interesting kotumeyil Thumbs Up

At last some arguments..

Thnx for the knowledgeSmile



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 16:39
Originally posted by Mortaza

Well I am sure someone(Fatih) who know 6 different langauge at his 20,  cannot become an intellectual but only a barbarian.Ermm


I wonder why such things are not discussed,
and the forum is flooded by silly threads as "the best turkish generals",
"best turan's empire" ,"how much brave we ,turks are.." ...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 10:56
I m sorry to disappoint any racist feelings of yours,but Mohamed II was not heterosexual at all
 
I couldn't get how you got that impression from my sarcastic nationalist statements but I've never had any statements against any races, unless you consider Alexander as an individual race of his own. And BTW, the list is baseless, without any historical reference...
 
Time to visit your eye-specialist.
 
What a joker you are...Big smile
 
Georgios Frantzis mentions
 
Please, never ever let him "mention" in AE. I guess your past statements about the conquest were also based on his theories. I founded some article of him in a "nationalist" history forum which you may be a member of:
 
 
I am used to be teased/insulted in this forum but this's the first time that I'm blamed with racism by a stormfront member. And Frantzis is a wrong name, his real name is Frantzoglu I guess...
 
Yes the modern Greeks sprung form the soil in 1821!
 
The rebellions occured in the former backwoods of the Byzantines. How does it prove anything?
 
and the forum is flooded by silly threads as "the best turkish generals",
"best turan's empire" ,"how much brave we ,turks are.." ...
 
Such topic names just sound funny in every sense, and can fit the amusement forums. But when blaming the other side, lets check the total number of topics of AE that you'll find out one fifth of them are about how Turks even massacred native iguanas and how did the great city fell to Muslims. See? I believe we should just blacklist all these kind of crap and just ignore the ones who open such threads.
 
And Diegenis, I wasn't serious about the "you can't do anything" part. You may come to Istanbul by a low price and we may all have our raki together near the bosphorus mate. You see, we aren't as bad as you are told.....:D
 
Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 11:25
Originally posted by Bashibozuk

[
 
Georgios Frantzis mentions
 
Please, never ever let him "mention" in AE. I guess your past statements about the conquest were also based on his theories. I founded some article of him in a "nationalist" history forum which you may be a member of:
 
 
I am used to be teased/insulted in this forum but this's the first time that I'm blamed with racism by a stormfront member. And Frantzis is a wrong name, his real name is Frantzoglu I guess...
 
 
What on earth are you mumbling???
 
George Frantzis (or Sfrantzis) was a Secretary (Great Logothetes) of Emperor Constantine Paleologus, born in Constantinople 1401 and died in Corfu in 1480. he was also a prominent writer and historian.
 
He was captured by the Ottomans when Constantinople fell in 1453. His son was killed by sultan Mehmet himself (along with many prominent Greeks) and his daughter was killed in the Sultan's harem one year later. Soon afterwards he managed to buy his freedom and escaped to the peloponnese, close the the Mystras Despot, Thomas Paleologus.
 
He later became a monk and wrote his famous "Chronicon" which survives to this days under two forms, Minus and Maius. It is consisted of 10 books and covers the period 1258-1477.
 
The rest of your post, I won't bother answering...
 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 12:20
George Frantzis (or Sfrantzis) was a Secretary (Great Logothetes) of Emperor Constantine Paleologus, born in Constantinople 1401 and died in Corfu in 1480. he was also a prominent writer and historian.
 
Aren't we both talking about Sfrantzis, that's why i didn't want him to mention here. An article about his so called memories were mentioned in that website also. You consider him a neutral historian, after his son was killed during the conquest?
 
He calls Turks Asian barbarians, and he exaggerates every historical fact in his chronicles. And that's had to call "prominent". His chronicals are his "theories". He says:
 
"the invaders broke the heads of those women who resisted, on the floor of the churches and they raped them dead. The famous icon of Apostole Loukas was totally destroyed. The sultan asked for the young sons of Duke Loukas Notaras. Their father refused and Mehmed was ready to take their heads. Notaras asked him to kill him after his sons so that he was sure that they were dead and not disgraced from the pervert sultan."
 
"The barbarians were vandalizing, stealing, burning, killing children, the elderly, the young girls."
 
And these memoirs were later compiled by Makarios Melissenos. Do you think he did a neutral, rational compiling job?
 
 


Edited by Bashibozuk - 01-Jun-2006 at 12:21
Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 14:40

1.Try spelling well my nick.-i won't go on such cheap indirect taunts.

2.I am not a member of this forum.I have read "To chronicon tis Aloseos" of Georgios Frantzis.Maybe it sounds strange to you,reading from the sources.You see,history is something more than stupid nationalistic dogmatic ideas,taught in school
U got your answer by Yiannis about Frantzis.
The man was an eye-witness of the siege and conquest.

Can you provide any sources about the peacfull entry of turkish troops in the City?

Plz do it or else , keep your mouth shut,to avoid being a joker mate Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 14:46

is this makarious  same with holy makarious of cyprus?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 15:10
Originally posted by Bashibozuk

Aren't we both talking about Sfrantzis, that's why i didn't want him to mention here. An article about his so called memories were mentioned in that website also. You consider him a neutral historian, after his son was killed during the conquest?
 
He calls Turks Asian barbarians, and he exaggerates every historical fact in his chronicles. And that's had to call "prominent". His chronicals are his "theories". He says:
 
"the invaders broke the heads of those women who resisted, on the floor of the churches and they raped them dead. The famous icon of Apostole Loukas was totally destroyed. The sultan asked for the young sons of Duke Loukas Notaras. Their father refused and Mehmed was ready to take their heads. Notaras asked him to kill him after his sons so that he was sure that they were dead and not disgraced from the pervert sultan."
 
"The barbarians were vandalizing, stealing, burning, killing children, the elderly, the young girls."
 
He isn't worth to be mentioned because he described his experience which is not pleasant for someone? That's a new historical tool or something?
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 16:29
Look, my Greek and Turkish friends out there,  ( yes, you!) if you think you can just take any old topic and turn it into a battleground, like in the good old days of AE, you have another thing coming.
We are not going to start this all over again. I already had to close a thread on "Pan Iranism"  today because you hijacked it, and this will be the next one, if it carries on like that.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 16:44
Well...we ll be waiting for historical sources claiming that

 "..the fellow Rums of Istanbul greeted Mehmed II as their sultan basileos.."
-(Bash)Smile
on 29th May 1453.

For historical sources...not flamme-war.
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