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Topic: Women in Combat Positions Posted: 16-May-2006 at 23:49 |
A very contempory debate. Firstly some parameters
1) By "combat", I mean direct combat as seen in the infantry, artillery,armour and air defence, not the many other combat support roles.
2)By "roles", I mean all the roles that are inherent in the above, thus snipers, or artillery observers are included.
3) And the military in question is a standing, professional, regular army.
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Posted: 16-May-2006 at 23:58 |
I have heard two arguments which have gone beyond the trite "equality" and "unethical" POVs
For the proposition
The military is such an important institution for the survival of the nation, and direct combat poistions are the most important of them all, that it is imperitive that you get your best people in it, and if you forbid women, you are just hurting yourself by reducing your recruiting pool by 50%.
For the opposition
Women in combat positions have not been successful. The Isrealis used them in the 1940's and they were removed after a a less then impressive performance. The Canadian Forces have been integrated since the 1980's and not one women has ever qualified for combat roles.
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morticia
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Posted: 17-May-2006 at 12:31 |
There is no doubt that women lack the physical strength necessary for combat. On the other hand, there are some men that lack the physical strength for combat too, and some even faint at the sight of a little blood. I believe that, if adequately trained, women can perform their duties just as good as men. Also, remember that this is new groundbreaking for women. It was only in the last few years that women were even granted entry to military academies to gain access to high military rankings. Some day, we will have our female "Rambo"...I guess we can call her "Rambina".
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Posted: 17-May-2006 at 12:35 |
We don't have female Rambos? Just ask all the married men the world over.
If adequetly trained I am sure, they can do well but the question is can hey be adequetly trained in adequet numbers? Take the Pakistan Air Force Physical, the pass rate is 1%.
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Mila
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Posted: 17-May-2006 at 12:47 |
I think if a woman is capable of passing the mandatory tests required to assume a combat position, she should be allowed to do so. However, I don't believe the testing should be modified in any way. If a man has to life 100 kilos and drag it across a room, so should a woman. If they can't make it, tough luck - physical strength is important in this position, as it is for - say - firefighters. In a burning building, I don't care if it's a man or a woman that saves my life as long as they're both qualified. But send me some 50 kilo girl who can barely life her own purse and we're both doomed.
That said, I think women can play a very important role in conflict. Women often make good nurturers, naturally. This is very useful in the medical field. Women are also often good spies, especially in patriarchial cultures. Women also often have excellent decision making and negociating skills. You won't find too many friendly fire deaths in an all-female army. And countless other often-true stereotypes between the sexes that make them well-suited for different things.
EDIT: PS, great thread, Sparten.
Edited by Mila - 17-May-2006 at 12:49
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Posted: 17-May-2006 at 14:07 |
Thats the point Mila exactly. The tests are being modified or gender normed as the term goes. That infalte the number of unfit troops (and they are usually women) in the miliraty and gives the change averse brass an excuse to send all the women to the rear; like Iraq.
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Scorpian
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 05:36 |
it doesn't take physical strength to fire a gun or throw a grenade or launch a rocket etc. females should be allowed to fight if you want to increase your chances of winning
if we are talking physical stuff like hand to hand combat then increase your female ratio to male opponent. 3 - 1 or higher if need be. These tactics have worked in the past with other Warrior women.
woman should be given a physical training program aimed at women and taught to fight as a team instead of as an individual.
What Mila has said about female firefighters is true; they are not as capable of lifting peeps out of burning buildings the same as a guy. This should not stop females from joining. Adequate training should be given to negate any scenario. if it takes two peeps to lift someone then so be it.
reminds me of a time when i was on a fireground when woman as firefighters were unkown (big forest fire)
if a guy needed to piss he'd do so without thought; me included
by mid afternoon only one person still had their fire tunic on. Everyone else had discarded theirs due to the stiffling heat. i'd no sooner took a piss when someone asked the person why they retained their tunic. They said because they were hiding the fact they had boobies and that she didn't want us to feel awkward. every man present got really! really! embarrassed and complained afterwards that they should have been told of her presence beforehand.
anyways that was 20 years ago and i'm sure these little minor misshaps don't happen now.
Edited by Scorpian - 18-May-2006 at 05:43
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 06:08 |
it doesn't take physical strength to fire a gun or throw a grenade or launch a rocket etc. females should be allowed to fight if you want to increase your chances of winning
Clearly you have never done any of the above. The average US Infantryman, and for the time being they are all men, carry about 60 KG of gear, in addition to their rifle and protective vest, which are around 8 and 10 Kgs respectivly. And a rocket usually weighs in at about 25 KGs.
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Scorpian
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 07:05 |
Originally posted by Sparten
it doesn't take physical strength to fire a gun or throw a grenade or launch a rocket etc. females should be allowed to fight if you want to increase your chances of winning
Clearly you have never done any of the above. The average US Infantryman, and for the time being they are all men, carry about 60 KG of gear, in addition to their rifle and protective vest, which are around 8 and 10 Kgs respectivly. And a rocket usually weighs in at about 25 KGs. |
the emphasis was on not needing physical strength to fire!!!!! a gun etc. (as in fixed emplacemets etc) and not on your emphasis as in to carry and lug about.
and your still comparing mens physical training/combat attributes in direct comparison to that of a female.
maybe you should re-read what i wrote.
so what if it takes three females or more to lug and carry just one rifle etc. my emphasis was on ratios and female capability to engage in combat where their physical numbers win.
p.s. and your first comment is wrong too
Edited by Scorpian - 18-May-2006 at 07:54
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 09:53 |
Originally posted by Sparten
For the opposition
The Canadian Forces have been integrated since the 1980's and not one women has ever qualified for combat roles.
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this is accually not true. Canada has women in combat roles. Yesterday the first one was Killed in action :
Capt. Nichola Goddard near Kandahar, the 17th Canadian and first female Canadian soldier killed in AfghanistanGoddard, 26, a forward artillery observer whose job it was to send targeting information back to the crews firing some of the military's new 155-mm long-range howitzers, was killed during operations 24 kilometres west of the city of Kandahar
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 10:34 |
I am sorry, I meant infantry. My mistake. The good captain was an artillery....person.
My source is an ex- Canadian Forces Col.
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 10:41 |
the emphasis was on not needing physical strength to fire!!!!! a gun etc. (as in fixed emplacemets etc) and not on your emphasis as in to carry and lug about.
A Heavy MG (the only type fired from fixed encampments) varies in weight. Its a two man job, gunner and loader, (the men take turns). An M2 Browning weighs in at about 60 kilos sans ammo, the 14.5 mm Pakistan Army HMG weighs even more. And the men are expected to carry it from one position to the next.
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Scorpian
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 10:55 |
Originally posted by Sparten
the emphasis was on not needing physical strength to fire!!!!! a gun etc. (as in fixed emplacemets etc) and not on your emphasis as in to carry and lug about.
A Heavy MG (the only type fired from fixed encampments) varies in weight. Its a two man job, gunner and loader, (the men take turns). An M2 Browning weighs in at about 60 kilos sans ammo, the 14.5 mm Pakistan Army HMG weighs even more. And the men are expected to carry it from one position to the next.
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why did you start this conversation/thread. it appears to be pointless
i could counter answer yet again but i reckon your mind is set on the fact that woman aren't up to the task physically.
lets just differ to disagree and leave it at that
Edited by Scorpian - 18-May-2006 at 11:32
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 13:08 |
I never said that. I just pointed out that the military was a very physically demanding profession.
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Dark Lord
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 14:45 |
Females have no business in combat.
Dark Lord.
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Maziar
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 17:54 |
In Germany women have fight to be allowed to serve in combat rule and they have won. They see this right as gender equality.
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Maziar
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 17:55 |
Originally posted by Dark Lord
Females have no business in combat.
Dark Lord.
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Totaly obsolete.
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Dark Lord
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:32 |
As an infantryman with military experience, I would not feel
comfortable going into battle knowing a female was covering my back. So
take your liberal social theories, kid, and shove it.
Dark Lord.
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Maziar
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:35 |
Originally posted by Dark Lord
As an infantryman with military experience, I would not feel comfortable going into battle knowing a female was covering my back.
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That's your problem.
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Dark Lord
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:54 |
When you demoralize and sabotage the military with insane liberal
social-engineering experiments, you weaken the armed forces and hinder
its ability to do its job. Then it becomes YOUR problem - as national
security is put under risk. The fact of the matter is, females do not
have the physical strength or aggressiveness to function properly under
stressful combat situations. And I don't need some punk kid giving me
smartass comments.
Dark Lord.
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