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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greatest Empires
    Posted: 20-May-2006 at 08:49
Originally posted by OguzK

Ottoman Empire is best
Gokturk Empire
Hun Empire(Asia, Europe)
Khazar Empire
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 10:09
Originally posted by Leonidas

machine, you must be one of those ignorants that thinks the world got where it is becase of the west.

Start a thread about your western superiority theory and see how far your assumptions can go.Please Smile

 
What do you mean by West, as in America, Enlgand???? Im speaking in general terms, IE Europe.
 
Your confusing me, you have the European Union stars on a Greek flag, yet it seems like your trying to create divisions.
 
 
 
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 09:14
I can tell you right now the west, isnt a unitary self contained block that owes nothing to those around it.

Originally posted by machine

Then Europeans rose to be the greatest. Arts, technology, ideology, science everything, its all European in origin.
this is false.

Arts > subjective value judgment and taste.  I wouldnt say europen art is superior to what is done in East asia or the Mid east this is a sign of cultural expression more so than advancement. alot here is owed to older cultures anyway.

 The west has porn, and many would argue that this is a sign of decadance, such arguments are also subjective value judgments.

technology > this is true for now, but many of the foundations lay outside of (western) europe.

ideology > like? marxism (great ethics) but a failure, capitalism? there are other threads to argue over the succes of that one, what about ethno nationlism and its most extreme manifestion the Nazi's.?

science > like technolgy, the basis comes from outside of (western) europe and mind you the only reason why we have sceince or technolgy has alot to do with the preserving of many anceint greek books by the islamic world.

Greek (and latin) advancement was critically helped (and preserved ^)  by contact and trade from other civilisations to the south and east of the aegean, more so than by people to their north /west. Nor should any other european claim this as their own.

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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 10:31

@machine

Just a wonder, were there such thing as "Western" or "European" civilization?

 
Did the Romans consider Germans or other "barbarians" around them to be "Western" or "European" , indeed, did the Roman refer themselves such?
 
Most the "Western" and "European" people whos advocating Rome's legacy actually had nothing to do with the Romans, only they are influenced by it as byproduct of history.
 
But China's case is different, today's Chinese and its distinctive civilization is mostly descended from pre-Qin kingdoms of Xia,Shang,Zhou, and vassal kingdoms of "Spring&autumn-warring states".
 
May be thats why China has been a relatively cohesive nation for past 2200 years since the founding of Han dynasty(and this feature was developed at least another 2200 years earlier).
 
While today's EU is comparatively young entity, and the notion of "Western" civilization is rather "modern-construct", or modern interpretation of "European" history by the "west" which is not necessary true and creditable with regard to ancient Mediterranean civilizations of Greece or Rome etc.
 
Imagine if the Japanese had won Sino-Japanese war of WWII, it then could be as well claiming that its representative of ancient Chinese civilization since its influenced greatly by it, and advocating it much. That'd be hypocritical.


Edited by The Charioteer - 21-May-2006 at 10:51
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  Quote rishubhav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 19:48
Middle Eastern Innovations? Lets see:

-Agriculture
-cities
-money
-writing (in some forms)

And these are just the basics. Not to mention that the Persians administrated a huge empire, and Alexander melded Greek culture with Persian culture and spread it from Egypt to India.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 20:39
Originally posted by Leonidas

I can tell you right now the west, isnt a unitary self contained block that owes nothing to those around it.

Originally posted by machine

Then Europeans rose to be the greatest. Arts, technology, ideology, science everything, its all European in origin.
this is false.

Arts > subjective value judgment and taste.  I wouldnt say europen art is superior to what is done in East asia or the Mid east this is a sign of cultural expression more so than advancement. alot here is owed to older cultures anyway.

 The west has porn, and many would argue that this is a sign of decadance, such arguments are also subjective value judgments.

technology > this is true for now, but many of the foundations lay outside of (western) europe.

ideology > like? marxism (great ethics) but a failure, capitalism? there are other threads to argue over the succes of that one, what about ethno nationlism and its most extreme manifestion the Nazi's.?

science > like technolgy, the basis comes from outside of (western) europe and mind you the only reason why we have sceince or technolgy has alot to do with the preserving of many anceint greek books by the islamic world.

Greek (and latin) advancement was critically helped (and preserved ^)  by contact and trade from other civilisations to the south and east of the aegean, more so than by people to their north /west. Nor should any other european claim this as their own.

 
Ok i will scrub arts from that list. The basis for the Aeroplane came from Europe, as did pretty much everything. I understand that there were Influences, but its what you do with them.
 
And mind you the reason we are on here using a computer has nothing do with the Middle East or Asia.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 20:41
Oh yes as for ideology, one look at the Middle East and its easy to see where they failed.
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  Quote rishubhav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 20:43
you still haven't replied to my points. Also, as for the computer it is based off of years of mathematics and science done by Arabs, and it uses a binary system which is based off of the number 0 invented by India
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 20:54
Middle Eastern Innovations? Lets see:

-Agriculture- Romans where the first to use mass production. We use machines now days for agriculture.
-cities- We also use skyscrapers, and modern forms of technology to create cities
-money
-writing

And these are just the basics. Not to mention that the Persians administrated a huge empire, and Alexander melded Greek culture with Persian culture and spread it from Egypt to India.
 
People do realise i said MODERN dont they???
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 20:58
 Examples of early calculating devices, the first ancestors of the computer, included the Antikythera mechanism, an ancient Greek device for calculating the movements of planets
 
The end of the Middle Ages saw a reinvigoration of European mathematics and engineering, and Wilhelm Schickard's 1623 device was the first of a number of European engineers to construct a mechanical calculator.
 
 Charles Babbage was the first to conceptualize and design a fully programmable computer as early as 1820, but due to a combination of the limits of the technology of the time, limited finance, and an inability to resist tinkering with his design, the device was never actually constructed in his lifetime. A number of technologies that would later prove useful in computing, such as the punch card and the vacuum tube had appeared by the end of the 19th century, and large-scale automated data processing using punch cards was performed by tabulating machines designed by Hermann Hollerith.
 
LOL Nope no mention of Arabs.


Edited by machine - 21-May-2006 at 21:00
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  Quote rishubhav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 21:33
the Arabs passed on the idea of gunpowder to Europe

The Middle Ages were full of myth and dogma

and if youdoubt Asian influence in computnig look at Japan
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 21:39

Im not doubting Asian influence, yet our influence on them in terms of technology is more abundant (think thats the word)

The Arabs mmmm are you sure??? I was under the impression that Europeans got the idea for gun powder via Turkey, who got the idea from the Chinese.
 
 
 
 


Edited by machine - 21-May-2006 at 21:40
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  Quote Aktufe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 21:47
[qoute]one look at the Middle East and its easy to see where they failed.[/quote]
Please elaborate.Smile

-Agriculture- Romans where the first to use mass production. We use machines now days for agriculture.
-cities- We also use skyscrapers, and modern forms of technology to create cities
-money
-writing

People do realise i said MODERN dont they???


Why did you jump all the way to mass production? You skipped the most important part: Agriculture itself!!!, which developed in the Near East.

Even if you're talking about modern technology, it's still pretty ignorant to say:
its all European in origin.


There would not be cars had it not been for the caveman's stone tools.

Maybe you should write book about inventions by Middle Easterners for the past 500 years, it will be very short.

Had a muslim or a chinese been asked those questions regarding "europeans" of 500 years ago, im sure their answer would've been the same as yours!!!



Edited by Aktufe - 21-May-2006 at 21:48
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 21:55
They failed because of their backwards religion.
 
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  Quote Aktufe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 21:58
They failed because of their backwards religion.

Please elaborate further.Smile
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:07
We only need to look at the Middle East at present to realise that.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:13
Of course you can comment on the Islamic golden age. But i would rather the term Middle Eastern golden age because i dont see what Islam has to do with it, perhaps they just say that so their religion doesnt seem so barbaric ( by modern standards)
 
Of course Christianty has had its times where if you challenged mainstream thinking you were persecuted.
 
Im also not religious btw, so im not bias.
 
 
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  Quote Aktufe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:13
We only need to look at the Middle East at present to realise that.

Yet their religion wasn't born a hundred years ago. Surely they were more religious 600 years ago, yet they were still more advanced than western europe in the fields of science/technology.

So you still haven't answered why they failed, and how their religion was responsible for their decline.
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  Quote Aktufe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:17
But i would rather the term Middle Eastern golden age because i dont see what Islam has to do with it,


If it had nothing to do with it's rise, then it had nothing to do with its decline. So i still fail to see how:

They failed because of their backwards religion.


Islam was there when they rose to the top, and it is here now.


Edited by Aktufe - 21-May-2006 at 22:18
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:33

Im sure they were more religious, the taliban are very religious also. I guess you get no where when you mix Islam with ideology.

 
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