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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greatest Empires
    Posted: 09-May-2006 at 06:44
Originally posted by Inuyasha

5- The Greeks---

Their empire was short lived...about 80 years.

When ? Do u mean Alexanders empire ,the Athenian democracy and dependencies or all the Greek city states ?


The Greeks quickly fell into the pelobneisian wars after Alexanders death..

Peloponnesian War 431-404 BC.

Alexander's death 323 BC.

and were then routed by the Carthaginians with ease.



What ???
When ?
After Greek win over Carthagenians in 480 BC in Imera-Sicily Carthagenians never were a major threat for the Greeks.
The conflict between Carthagenians and Greeks of Sicily and South Italy continued until 4th century,but never involved  the whole hellenism -only the western Greeks of Italy.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 08:09
Originally posted by Dream208

 

 

If the Greek and Rome laid the fundation of the Western culture, then Spring&Atumn and QinHan dynasties laid the fundation of the Eastern culture.

You mean Far Eastern culture,not Middle Eastern.

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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 12:16

I think I mentioned: East, West and Middle-East.

And yes, the East I mentioned here is Far-East.

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 14:13
Just wanted to clarify it.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 15:08
Originally posted by Digenis

Originally posted by Inuyasha

5- The Greeks---

Their empire was short lived...about 80 years.

When ? Do u mean Alexanders empire ,the Athenian democracy and dependencies or all the Greek city states ?


The Greeks quickly fell into the pelobneisian wars after Alexanders death..

Peloponnesian War 431-404 BC.

Alexander's death 323 BC.

and were then routed by the Carthaginians with ease.



What ???
When ?
After Greek win over Carthagenians in 480 BC in Imera-Sicily Carthagenians never were a major threat for the Greeks.
The conflict between Carthagenians and Greeks of Sicily and South Italy continued until 4th century,but never involved  the whole hellenism -only the western Greeks of Italy.
THANK YOU for pointing those out, Digenis.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 00:01
I'd knock down the Greeks a couple notches and also stick China on the list.  We hear about the Greeks all the time in history class in the United States since they were influential in the development of the West, but as far as great empire?  It's difficult to argue that pre-Alexander they were any sort of empire.

It was just a collection of city-states...The population of Athens was only 300,000 in its golden age.  That's it.  just ONE city.  Can you really argue that it's an empire?  In comparison, during the Peloponesian wars, China was partitioned into 7 different states, EACH of whom had more soldiers than Athens had citzens. 

Each of these Chinese states was certainly more technologically advanced, and could command orders of magnitude more economic and people resources than the Greeks or Alexander; the states were unified in 221 BC to create what I would argue is the by far and away the most powerful empire of ancient times. 


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 01:42

What proof is there of the Chinese being more technologically advanced. With regards to population Whats that got to do with anything???? Asia has always had a large population. If they had these resources and hardware where have they been????????

Sounds like China throughout history, always had this, always had that yet did nothing with it. established a road(silk), built a wall(china wall) and thats it. Dont worry im not knocking Chinese history, culture etc, but you kept to yourselves for along time and fell behind.

 

 

 

 

 

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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 11:52

Before modern period, bigger population demonstrated your economic and technological power and advancement (so you can sustain this kind of population). And I don't think there is any European state (even Romans) could match Chinese dynasties' agricultural and economic production till 17 or even 18th century. Of course, Europe had its own field of excellency. The marintine trade was more active in Europe compared that at the Far-East.

China never isolated itself from the world completely, even during latter dynasties. Using the Great Wall as the symbol of China's isolation was incorrect. The European states did not surpass (collectively) China in international trade until late 18 or early 19 century.

When Rome was forgeing Europe, Han was forgeing East-Asia. When Islamic caliphs was preaching the gospels of Allah, Tang was pushing Buddhism and Daoism to their peak. Ming, along with India, composed of 70% of world trade at that time. And today, both PRC and ROC still stand among the influencial states in the world.

Yes, China encountered many crisises in the past. The past 200 years was perhaps the darkest age of entire Chinese history. But my friends, do not make mistake of using 200 to judge 4000. The Chinese legacies were there, even many of them are subtle.

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 14:53

It was just a collection of city-states...The population of Athens was only 300,000 in its golden age.  That's it.  just ONE city.  Can you really argue that it's an empire?  In comparison, during the Peloponesian wars, China was partitioned into 7 different states, EACH of whom had more soldiers than Athens had citzens. 

 

First of all,Athens had the biggest population in Ancient Hellas.

Secondly,Athens was the only Ancient Hellenic  city which ,when it was at it's pick,had the strength alone to make military operations far away from the narrow geopolitical limits of Hellas,with the greatest example the campaign in Sicily.Only Alexander managed to go out of Hellas,hundreds of years later.

Thirdly ,when it was at it's pick,Athens had the best navy forces in the whole Mediterrenean Sea.

Last but not least,the immense magnitude of the Athenian civilization and it's great legacy to the whole world,not only to the West.

Your  mistake is that the greatness of an empire is not measured by it's population,but through it's achievements.Athens was indeed one city,but that's the greatest thing.Look what one city has contributed to history.Not to mention the immense contribution of the rest City-States..

 

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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 15:16
I have to agree with Disreli about the British empire. It overall has had the largest effect on the world, however doing such does not make an empire great.

I personally do not like these "biggest an baddest" threads, however i am intrigued to know if anybody has come across a list of Sea empires (an empire conquered by ocean and not by land).
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 16:13
I totally agree with you that Athens had a profound influence on the development of the West, and that its cultural achievments are incredible. You say that the measure the greatness of an empire is its achievements; this is subjective in nature.

The greatness of an empire could also be measured by its power; I would argue that it's clear that Greece was not the most powerful empire of the time.

I just want to offer another perspective than the Eurocentric view that I see here.  At least in the United States, everyone learns how marvelous Greece was, as if it were the only civilization of consequence at the time.  I just wanted to point out that simultaneously, China was flourishing as a cultural center with equally amazing achievements and objectively was obviously the most powerful empire of the time.

Sure, Athens dominated the Aegean, but, all things being equal, it's obviously more important to dominate tens of millions of people rather than just hundreds of thousands.  You can't argue that since the Aztecs were masters of meso-America that they were as great as the Mongols.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 16:23
What is being in question here is whether Athens was a great empire,not the greatest.Of course it was not the greatest,but it was great and the first Western,if you can call that, Empire.You are comparing here 2 civilizations,which were developped in different areas of the planet,in diffirent historical conditions,which is another mistake.There is no "greater Empire" .Every empire has it's unique character,it's unique way of thinking and  life,it's unique historical contribution.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 16:36
OK that's a good point...I guess I'm being too antagonistic.

I suppose the original question of ranking of greatness attempts to introduce a total ordering of "empires," which is fun for the discussion board, but ultimately pointless. 


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  Quote Bosniakum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 18:27

"All roads lead to Rome"

There is no question about that Rome was the greatest Empire, economically, culturally and militaristically.  When talking about the Chinese Empires you have to aknowledge that they were not really empires in the sense that the Chinese did not go out and conquer the land they controlled, but they just happend to inhabit it.  While on the other side Rome, which was just a city state conqured the whole Mediterranean.  Plus when thinking about Western Civilization which is predominant today, one sees the Roman influence everywhere from culture to society in general, plus there is not one country in Europe or around the Mediterranean that does not have latin words in its language.

Also when talking about poplation and its importance, tell me how come that the Mongols conquered China when the Chinese outnumbered them so greatly if population is so important, and how come the Greeks defeated the largest empire in their time when they were so outnumbered(Persian Empire).

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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 18:43
Most influential would be british, we speak in its tongue on AE.
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  Quote Bosniakum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 20:37

Originally posted by malizai_

Most influential would be british, we speak in its tongue on AE.

 But that is because of the USA and not Britain.

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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 20:52
Originally posted by Bosniakum

"All roads lead to Rome"

There is no question about that Rome was the greatest Empire, economically, culturally and militaristically.  When talking about the Chinese Empires you have to aknowledge that they were not really empires in the sense that the Chinese did not go out and conquer the land they controlled, but they just happend to inhabit it.  While on the other side Rome, which was just a city state conqured the whole Mediterranean.  Plus when thinking about Western Civilization which is predominant today, one sees the Roman influence everywhere from culture to society in general, plus there is not one country in Europe or around the Mediterranean that does not have latin words in its language.

Also when talking about poplation and its importance, tell me how come that the Mongols conquered China when the Chinese outnumbered them so greatly if population is so important, and how come the Greeks defeated the largest empire in their time when they were so outnumbered(Persian Empire).

Before the Han dynasty there were many different 'chinese' states which like the many european states like macedonia greece rome and carthage fought each other for supreme power.So one state the Qin took over all the other states and unified china,they unified the language law etc.

The Han dynasty even extended this even more by Conquering Korea,Vietnam, mongolia, and all the way to the Central asia.

The Romans did the Same they unified Europe,the romans were eventually destroyed by Barbarians,which pushed by the Hun tribe destroyed Rome.Now Hun tribe are estimated at only 20,000 tents strong which is very small compared to the mongols 200,000 tents,Yet they caused the fall of Rome.

Mongols were a very powerful army 100,000 soldiers when invading china they defeated the Main chinese army of its feircest troops of 150,000 to 200,000 men in a great battle this is regarded by the mongols as their most important Victory.After that the mongols ranks swelled with different ethnic peoples of china.

If rome is so great how come its Culture didnt last to this day like the chinese whose has.

 

 

 

 



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  Quote Bosniakum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 21:28
Originally posted by BigL

Originally posted by Bosniakum

"All roads lead to Rome"

There is no question about that Rome was the greatest Empire, economically, culturally and militaristically.  When talking about the Chinese Empires you have to aknowledge that they were not really empires in the sense that the Chinese did not go out and conquer the land they controlled, but they just happend to inhabit it.  While on the other side Rome, which was just a city state conqured the whole Mediterranean.  Plus when thinking about Western Civilization which is predominant today, one sees the Roman influence everywhere from culture to society in general, plus there is not one country in Europe or around the Mediterranean that does not have latin words in its language.

Also when talking about poplation and its importance, tell me how come that the Mongols conquered China when the Chinese outnumbered them so greatly if population is so important, and how come the Greeks defeated the largest empire in their time when they were so outnumbered(Persian Empire).

Before the Han dynasty there were many different 'chinese' states which like the many european states like macedonia greece rome and carthage fought each other for supreme power.So one state the Qin took over all the other states and unified china,they unified the language law etc.

The Han dynasty even extended this even more by Conquering Korea,Vietnam, mongolia, and all the way to the Central asia.

The Romans did the Same they unified Europe,the romans were eventually destroyed by Barbarians,which pushed by the Hun tribe destroyed Rome.Now Hun tribe are estimated at only 20,000 tents strong which is very small compared to the mongols 200,000 tents,Yet they caused the fall of Rome.

Mongols were a very powerful army 100,000 soldiers when invading china they defeated the Main chinese army of its feircest troops of 150,000 to 200,000 men in a great battle this is regarded by the mongols as their most important Victory.After that the mongols ranks swelled with different ethnic peoples of china.

If rome is so great how come its Culture didnt last to this day like the chinese whose has.

Well Rome did not unify anything in Europe, Rome conquered the European and Mediterranean states, also the big difference is that Europe is a continent with hundreds of different cultures and political identities, while like you said the Chinise unified themselves or just conquered different Chinese states.

Also the downfall of Rome had nothing to do with the Huns, by the time the Huns got there the Roman Empire had been in decline for a long time already due to civil war, corruption , disease and so on, plus Rome went on after Atilla and the Huns.

 

 

 

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  Quote Bosniakum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 21:31
Also Roman culture still lasts, in pretty much all the western countires.
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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 02:07

Bosniakum

You do realize that "China" did not start with today's territory right? It will be better if you could first try to briefly understand the Han or Chinese history, before making any assumption.

Roman military will probably be the most power force on earth during their time, if Han army never existed

The Chinese dynasty which fell to Mongol was Song. And I suggest you do some research about Song's economic, cultural and military achievements (hint: Gund-powder, and first cannon and guns).

Again, do some "basic" research before you make assumption toward the Chinese history and its legacy.



Edited by Dream208
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