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Why was Europe First?

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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why was Europe First?
    Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 22:03

Although Saint Peter's Basilica in the Vatican will always overshadow it, my favorite cathedral would have to be that of the Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore in Florence, Italy. Such a beautiful structure altogether, the dome, the bell tower, the facade, plus you've got to love the interior with the Last Judgement on the roof of the dome.

 
 
 
 
 
Beautiful...
 
Focusing back on the East, one of the things about history that really pisses me off is when something of great historical value is destroyed, like the Library of Alexandria, for example. In the case of the East, besides the burning of the books by Qin Shi Huang and the later burning of the Qin archives at Xianyang (providing multitudes of valuable information about the Warring States period and the different philosophical schools, etc.) in the 3rd century BC, the thing that gets me the most is the destruction of the Nanjing Porcelain Pagoda during the stupid Taiping Rebellion in 1853. Why is it that wild religious whackos seem to be the cause of destroying everything that is good? Lol. Anyway, I know I've posted some good images of wooden, stone, and brick pagodas previously in this thread (page 3), but judging by the description of this pagoda, none of them seem to hold a candle to it in terms of pure beauty. The Porcelain Pagoda of Nanjing was constructed in the early 15th century under the reign of Emperor Yongle (and was even overseen at one point by the famous Muslim Eunuch Zheng He, admiral of the Ming Treasure Fleet). It had many indigenous commentators in its day, but foreign travelers also had a thing or two to say about it, like the French mathematician Le Comte who visited in the early 19th century, who wrote, "The best contrived and noblest structure of all the East." Here's the description of it before it was destroyed in the 19th century...  

Since the pagoda was the most important place for worshipping Buddha and releasing the soul of the dead from purgatory, it received special care. It was built right behind Gongfei Hall. It was such a big and complicated project that it took more than twenty years to complete construction in 1431. According to historical accounts, the pagoda was about a hundred meters tall [it was actually roughly 80 meters tall, but height was not the reason it was important], octagonal, with nine storeys. The outside walls were covered with white porcelain bricks, each with a small statue of Buddha in the middle. Every storey had the same number of bricks, but as the storeys grew progressively smaller, the bricks also became smaller. The pent roofs on each storey and the arched doors were all covered by colored glazed tiles. The arched doors were decorated with patterns such as golden-winged rocs, dragons, lions, elephants, and human figures, all depicted vividly and elegantly. On the first storey statues of the four heavenly kings carved on marble were inlaid in the walls between the arched doors. The steeple, made of cast iron, was composed of nine discs, the biggest in the middle and the others becoming progressively smaller towards each end. The discs had a pedestal composed of two layers of lotus petals. The pedestal was made of gilded iron, so it was called the gold ball by the local people. The bead on top of the steeple was made of gold, weighing "two thousand taels." The steeple was linked to the roof ridges of the pagoda by eight iron chains. Nine small bells hung from each chain. In addition, eighty bells hung under the eaves of the pagoda. It was truly a magnificent building, bright, colorful, even dazzling. Legend has it that the underground palaces and the top of the pagoda contained priceless treasures, such as pearls that were luminous at night or could protect their owners from water, fire, wind and dust, a diamond, "a hundred jin" (fifty kilogrammes) of tea, "four thousand taels" of gold, "a thousand taels" of silver, a thousand strings of coins issued during the reign of Emperor Yongle, two bolts of yellow satin and a volume of Guardian of the Earth Buddhist scripture. On the pagoda 146 oil lamps were attended by more than a hundred virgin boys day and night. The "everlasting lamps" were so large, it was said, that the diametre of a lampwick was "an inch," and they consumed "64 jin" (32 kilogrammes) of oil a day. Emperor Yongle, to show his respect for the pagoda, wrote "Pagoda Number One" for the building.

The method of construction was also different from other buildings. It is said that instead of scaffolds dirt piles were used for building the high structure. The piles became higher and higher as each storey was added. When the whole project was finished, the dirt was removed, revealing the pagoda. Also, each construction component, including the glazed tiles, white porcelain bricks and all the other ornamental objects, had three copies, so if any part was damaged during construction, it could be replaced. When the pagoda was completed, the spare components were numbered and buried underground, so that if anything broke, it could be replaced according to the number. Sure enough, in 1958 the department of cultural relics of Nanjing found a large number of spare components of the pagoda, most with handwritten numbers in ink on them.

The "Porcelain Pagoda of Nanjing"--the wonder of the Middle Ages recorded in the civilized history of mankind--as it was called by foreign admirers, stood for more than four hundred years before it was destroyed in the middle of the nineteenth century. Even today, when people see the colorful glazed tiles and ornaments of the pagoda preserved in the Nanjing Museum, they can imagine the lofty mid magnificent appearance of the pagoda in olden times.

 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 28-Sep-2006 at 22:35
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 05:27
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 05:30
Middle Eastern Art Is Very Cool Too
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 08:57
Preo,

are you sure those Chola sculptures are from between the 9th and 13th century and not later inserted? They look so new. Anyway, superb art.

Those Hindu temples below are by the way my current favourite. I love them for their colourfulness and this simple cuneiform shape has a strong appeal to me. But I am again sceptical how much of the substance has been later added.


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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 15:15

Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma

Preo,

are you sure those Chola sculptures are from between the 9th and 13th century and not later inserted? They look so new. Anyway, superb art.

Those Hindu temples below are by the way my current favourite. I love them for their colourfulness and this simple cuneiform shape has a strong appeal to me. But I am again sceptical how much of the substance has been later added.

 
The Temple Complex of Srirangam itself has existed since the 10th century right before the Imperial naval height of the Chola period. Most sites about the temple complex are rather tourist-orientated and lacking in decent information, but I found this website here to be useful.
 
 
A somewhat lengthy history including a good amount of detail about what was added over the centuries after the 10th century, but unfortunately nothing about those sculptures of horses and such. I'll keep looking...
 
In the meantime, here's pics from the medieval Chola capitals at Thanjuvar, and then the capital of Gangaikonda Cholapuram (I've also seen it spelled as Gongaihonda), established by Rajendra Chola I (1014 - 11044 AD), which ultimately diminshed the importance of Thanjuvar, which was the Chola capital in the century beforehand. 
 
Thanjuvar Temples
 
 
Gangaikonda Cholapuram
 
 
 
I'm not sure where these next pictures are from (pulled from wikipedia on Hindu Architecture), but they look incredible...
 
 
 
Although I believe the one with the stone elephant in the interior and this last pic right here are from Ranakpur Temple, built in the late 14th century.
 
Eric
 


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 29-Sep-2006 at 15:51
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 16:29

Wow! This is a pretty cool find. This gold Byzantine solidus coin is from the dual reign of Justinian I and Justin I (co-emperors in 527), the frontside depicting the two Imperators, the reverse side an angel. This coin was found in the tomb of none other than Tian Hong, who died in 575 AD, in the Northern Zhou Dynasty, in modern-day Guyuan, Ningxia Province, China.

 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 29-Sep-2006 at 16:30
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 05:51
I know you guys enjoyed the art pieces I posted on pages 4 and 5, and so I'm back once again. From what I've seen in tons of diffferent art pieces, it looks as if the unique style of Japanese Art wasn't developed until about the 15th to 16th centuries, where beforehand art was largely adopted around the mainland Chinese model. Here are several examples of pre-15th century art in Japan.
 
Paradise of Amida Buddha (Amitabha)
 
The Paradise of Amida Buddha, Heian Period (794 - 1185 AD). It looks very Tang-Dynasty style.
 
The Bosatsu Jizo and Ten Kings of Hell
 
The Bosatsu Jizo and Ten Kings of Hell, Kamakura Period (1185 - 1333 AD). Once again, this looks very late-Song/early Yuan Dynasty Chinese.
 
Emma-ten and Two Attendants; below, Emma-o and Two Attendants
 
Emma-Ten and Two Attendants, 13th century Kamakura Period
 
Eleven-Headed Kannon
 
Eleven-Headed Kannon, 13th century Kamakura Period
 
Fugen
 
Fugen, by Takuma Eiga in the early 14th century
 
Arhat, from a set of sixteen
Arhat
Arhat
Arhat
Arhat
 
Arhat, from a set of sixteen by Ryozen (circa 1328 - 1360 AD), early Muromachi Period.
 
Group of Heavenly Beings
 
Group of Heavenly Beings, 14th-15th century Nambokucho Period
 
Group of deva and devi
 
Group of Deva and Devi, 14th-15th century Nambokucho Period
 
Kuan-yin, white robed, seated upon an over-hanging rock
 
Guanyin, 15th century Muromachi Period
 
Sakyamuni preaching
 
Sakyamuni Preaching, 16th century Muromachi Period
 
Buddhist triad: Sakya, Manjusri and Samantabhadra
 
The Buddhist Triad: Sakya, Manjusri, Samantabhadara, by Kose Arishige, Muromachi Period (16th century). Looks very Ming-Dynasty of China influenced...
The Chinese Emperor Minghuang and his concubine Yang Guifei, with attendants on a terrace
 
The Chinese Emperor Minghuang and His Concubine Yang Guifei, by Kano Eitoku, 16th century.
 
Interior and inmates of a house of entertainment
 
Interior and Inmates of a House of Entertainment, late 16th century Momoyama Period.
 
Horse and Attendant
 
Horse and Attendant, late 16th century Momoyama Period
 
A Festival at the Sumiyoshi Shrine
 
A Festival at the Sumiyoshi Shrine, early 17th century Edo Period
 
A Picnic Party
 
A Picnic Party, 17th century Edo Period
 
A man, possibly an actor, and two girls
 
An Actor and Two Girls, by Kawamata Tsuneyuki, 18th century Edo Period
 
Gaiety in a riverside tea-house
 
Gaiety In a Riverside Tea House, 18th century Edo Period
 
A Winter Party
 
A Winter Party, by Utagawa Toyoharu, 18th century Edo Period
 
Beauties of the Seasons---Summer
 
Beauties of the Seasons - Summer, by Isoda Koryusai, 18th century 
 
The armor-pulling scene from a Soga play
 
The Armor-Pulling Scene From a Soga Play, unknown date, Edo Period
 
Thunder god
Two Matching Bowls
 
Thunder God, and Dragon by Katsushika Hukosai, the former being 1847, the latter I couldn't find a definite date, but early 19th century
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 00:29
Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma

Originally posted by BigL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moveable_type


Forget Wiki. If you feel comfortable, I am going to edit the whole article for you. Then you can quote again from Wiki.
 
Lol, Gun powder Ma, I just realised that you are actually Tibet Libre from CHF. Your China bashing and blatant bias is an obvious give away.
 Well, you certainly seem to have learned the unreliability of the Wiki, since you were extensively quoting from it just a few month ago. Clap
 
Your simplistic comment on wood vs. stone has already been refuted by me in CHF. Read back on it.


Edited by abcd - 01-Oct-2006 at 00:32
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  Quote Jibaholic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 17:01
I think Brian Tierney answered this question in his book 'The Idea of Natural Rights' even though the book does not even discuss the rise of Europe.

Lets set aside history for a second and focus on current events. Does anyone seriously think that a nation or civilization will become the world's superpower following anything other than the "trinity" of capitalism, individual rights, and representative government?

China, India, Japan and the other Asian tigers only rose because they westernized. China will probably keep getting wealthier - but do you really think their per-capita GDP will outpace the United States or Europe unless they further reform their government and embrace human rights?  Of course, with over a billion people they do not have to equal the US in per-capita GDP to become a superpower, but that has nothing to do with which system is superior.

So it is not technology that matters. Or geography. Or art. What matters is the committment to freedom and human rights.

And while you can debate the level of technology, you cannot debate the fact that Europe was hundreds of years (or more) ahead of the rest of the world in developing a robust philosophy of human rights.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 18:05


And while you can debate the level of technology, you cannot debate the fact that Europe was hundreds of years (or more) ahead of the rest of the world in developing a robust philosophy of human rights.
[/QUOTE]
any evidence?
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 18:22
Well Siege Tower, I think what he's getting at is the classical civilizations of Greece, with the Athenian staple of direct democracy and will of the (male) citizenry to decide and cast vote of their own interests by forming the body of the ecclesia. Likewise, this idea of democracy was transplanted into the ideals of the Roman Republic, before Rome's Imperial Age of Roman Emperors running the show. Then we see the medieval gap of the Dark Ages where lack of human rights are defined by the rigid restraints of early Christianity and instead of Roman "citizens" we find medieval "serfs" who are subjects, not citizens. Of course, a handful of Italian city-states, like Rome for instance, kept alive through the Middle Ages the notions of republicanism and democracy. The Magna Carta of England which forced the King to concede rights to the nobles, and the later forming of a Constitutional Monarchy (just a few stepping stones away from a modern Constitutional Democracy). The Medieval era Republic of Novgorod in Russia (although it is debatable if you would consider Russia part of the political sphere of Eastern Europe at this point). The largely successful Dutch Republic of the 17th century is another good example, as with the Polish Rebublic, in all its phases. The American Revolution in the late 18th century to form a democratic union of states against English monarchical colonial power, and then soon after the French Revolution. When Napoleon Bonaparte of France conquered most of Europe and marched into Russia, he became a villain to many, like the Prussian Clausewitz, but to many he was also a hero, and indisputably spread ideals of the French Revolution throughout Europe, heightening the already previous and occuring Enlightenment movement, and establishing systems of meritocracy in governance and military throughout Europe instead of the old dogmatic forms of hereditary rights of the nobility. These events are all happening while the East is continuing with its age-old tradition of governance and civilizing society. In their own time, the highly-competitive atmosphere of China's ancient, medieval, and early modern age Imperial Examination system offered an efficient model of meritocracy, enabling the best men fit for the job, whether it be local, provincial, regional, or central government affairs. This ideal had its merits in its own time, but things change, and with the success of the Western democratic model installed in places like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, India, etc., these areas aren't likely to revert back to old ways in ideas of governance and so forth. Jibaholic raises good points, but in about a hundred years or so, this debate of ours will seem pretty old and out-of-context, as I think the standard of living in the future will be heightened so drastically with new technology that more people will become better educated, and with better educated individuals all around, more people (especially in mainland China) will come to question forms of government that no longer fit with the needs of the populace at large. Look at how rapidly nations like China are transforming themselves today, from economic, intellectual, political, and technological viewpoints.
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 03-Oct-2006 at 18:26
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 19:01
Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma

...
If Europe was "very primitive" compared to Ming China as late as the 1400s, then the Chinese must have come across to the Europeans in the ensuing centuries as total savages.
 
I believe that's a mistake. Europe was decadent, affected by many problems: invasors (barbarians, moors, mongols), feudalism, analphabetism, etc. But there were many regions and institutions that keep going. Bizancio, Venice and Al-Andalus are example of explendid civilizations in European soil. Moreover, even in Western Europe, the church managed to maintain the culture alive, although in a underdeveloped state.
 
By 1200, during the low Middle Ages, Europe suffered a renacence in culture (Saint Thomas), architecture (Cathedrals), technology (wind mill, mechanical clock), literature (national languages, early literatures) that was just the beginning of the a new age.
 
Although "primitive" by Chinese standards, Europe was at those time starting to wake up and catching up.
why did the Chinese loose their technology lead over Europe in the 1700s? what was so special about Europe that it fostered liberal, pluralistic capitalism?
 
Because Europe had more problems than China, and it was fighting for its very survival. It was a fight between the small and the giant waves of invaders that menaced them. Europe, accustumed to fight, responded to the challenge by inventing and fighting.
 
Just an example. Look at Portugal, a small nation just one million people strong at those times. They started to study navigation methodically with the end of reaching the far east, and to destroy the muslim monopoly. They did it with all its will and succeed.
 
Look at England when it when to compite with India manufacturing in textiles. How could England compite with India's massive cheap labour? Well, they developed authomatic textile machinery, and put into work the industrial revolution.
 
Europe received the knowledge of the ancient Greeks, the ideology and will of the Romans, the technology from Arabs and Chineses, and the mathematics from Indians and Arabs. They took all those things and transformed in something different. They used their crussade spirit to fight moslems, reconquist Spain and they to cross the seas and colonize the rest of the world.
 
They did it because they didn't have another choices. Westerners had to fight to survive, and they did.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 19:31
Originally posted by Jibaholic

...
And while you can debate the level of technology, you cannot debate the fact that Europe was hundreds of years (or more) ahead of the rest of the world in developing a robust philosophy of human rights.
 
The fact is Europe was ahead of Asia in technology beginning the 15th century.
 
Some facts:
(1) Architecture: Cathedrals and domes require the study of dynamical forces. It was not just a matter of pile up stones, but to develop modern (although intuitive) civil engineering.
 
(2) Mechanic: the windmill and mechanical clock were just the beginning of the development of a new technological age.
 
(3) Mathematics: have already assimilated all the knowledge of the rest of the world and it was starting to create something knew.
 
(4) Navigation: there was institutions doing research in navigation, colecting maps, improving instruments like the magnetic compass, the astrolab and others, and developing new ships, like the caravel.
 
(5) Warfare: Had already assimilated and perfected cannons and guns, and developing new types of weapons.
 
(6) Science: The beginning of modern science is starting to show. Works like the ones of Tartaglia, Stevin and others where already published.
 
(7) Arts: Perspective and camera obscura were revolutioning painting.
 
(8) Literature: New literary form were being developed. Mass production of books.
 
(9) Commerce: The development of modern banking and of the companies with shares.
 
Well, at that point there destiny of Europe was already clear. Between 1200 and 1400 Europe took the lead of the world.
 
Pinguin
 
 
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  Quote honeybee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 01:29
The more appropriate date is really 17th century. There are other things which China was ahead in the 15th and 16th century. Which is more advanced is still a debated topic.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 01:59
There are just phases of civilizations. Nobody is more or less developed. Some people may be better in something at some time, others may be better in other things at other times. 
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 08:29
thank you pinguin for your answers, however, musilims, Indians and Chinese,
were very advanced in mathmatic, so can you privide informations about that?
oh and Koreans and chinese war ships in 14th century had also equiped fire arms, such as cannons and guns.
also, yous said europeans took the lead in between 1200-1400, i believe they were in crusade.
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 10:03
The crusades ended in 1291, but the last few crusades were of quite smaller significance for Europe than the first 3, from the standpoint of the changes in society, culture and technology. Besides, it's not like the crusades somehow were a strain on European development or anything, on the contrary: they probably helped bring in new ideas. If one looks at Europe during the 12th, 13th and early 14th centuries, there was a massive change evident in the level of economic development, science and culture. Some have called this period the Medieval Industrial Revolution. Thousands of cathedrals sprung up all across western Europe; culture and philosophy made huge strides with people such as Abelard, Bacon, Albertus Magnus, Aquinas and others. Europe borrowed heavily from other civilizations, it's true, but it has also started to make its own contributions. A dramatic event which really slowed things down however was the Black Plague, of 1347-1351, which killed a third of Europe's population. I would say that Europe of 1345 had caught up with the rest of the world, and in some areas surpassed other civilizations of the Old world; but the Black Plague was a major setback which meant that Europe had to wait for another 100 years before actually pulling ahead of the rest of the world. By the late 15th century, they were definitely ahead in terms of technology compared to most civilizations: just look at the success which the Portuguese, with their meager resources, had in completely disrupting the Indian Ocean trade network, and the spectacular naval victories by which they accomplished this.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 10:46
Originally posted by Siege Tower

thank you pinguin for your answers, however, musilims, Indians and Chinese,
were very advanced in mathmatic, so can you privide informations about that?
oh and Koreans and chinese war ships in 14th century had also equiped fire arms, such as cannons and guns.
also, yous said europeans took the lead in between 1200-1400, i believe they were in crusade.
 
Yes, Muslims, Indians and Chineses were very advanced in mathematics, and it was that math which was acquired by the Europeans in the late Middle Ages. It was introduced by the Muslims through Spain and Italy, and produced a shock in Europe. The same happened by the firearms, of chinese invention, which came to Europe as well by that time.
 
What happened is that Europe received at once: (1) The science, culture and math of classical times (2) the Arab, Persian and Indian science (3) Chinese technologies.
 
And that produced an intellectual boom in Europe that gave them a extraordinary momentum. People want to learn, to study, to improve, to conquest. It was a radical change of mentality of all Western Europe.
 
After the crusades, precisely, Europe started to move faster than the rest. It was not that one or another society was better of more advanced, but that Europe had acquired the urgency to improve, to invent, and to change the world.
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 11:21
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Siege Tower

thank you pinguin for your answers, however, musilims, Indians and Chinese,
were very advanced in mathmatic, so can you privide informations about that?
oh and Koreans and chinese war ships in 14th century had also equiped fire arms, such as cannons and guns.
also, yous said europeans took the lead in between 1200-1400, i believe they were in crusade.
 
Yes, Muslims, Indians and Chineses were very advanced in mathematics, and it was that math which was acquired by the Europeans in the late Middle Ages. It was introduced by the Muslims through Spain and Italy, and produced a shock in Europe. The same happened by the firearms, of chinese invention, which came to Europe as well by that time.
 
What happened is that Europe received at once: (1) The science, culture and math of classical times (2) the Arab, Persian and Indian science (3) Chinese technologies.
 
And that produced an intellectual boom in Europe that gave them a extraordinary momentum. People want to learn, to study, to improve, to conquest. It was a radical change of mentality of all Western Europe.
 
After the crusades, precisely, Europe started to move faster than the rest. It was not that one or another society was better of more advanced, but that Europe had acquired the urgency to improve, to invent, and to change the world.
 
Pinguin
 
 
I think we all can pretty much agree on thatClap
I think Europe really started shooting ahead when(and a lot of folks tend to overlook this) Constantinople fell in 1453 and eastern european ideas meshed with western european ideas thus ultimately leading to the renaissance. Let us not to also forget the Byzantines were in eastern europe during the middle ages, they certainly kept up on architecture, learning, philosophy etc...
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 16:33
thank you all, it is very convincing
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