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Foreign Influences on Europe.
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gcle2003 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07-May-2008 at 15:47
Gnocchi were invented, potatos were discovered. Smile
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Gnocchi were invented, potatos were discovered. Smile
By this time next month I might investigate this invention in Veneto. Cool
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2008 at 16:17
Originally posted by gcle2003

Gnocchi were invented, potatos were discovered. Smile
 
Oh, yes. That's the superiority of Europe, with its master race. The rest never invent anything, you know. Add to those Europeans achievemnets the invention of Spagetti, of course.
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2008 at 16:35
Originally posted by Pinguin

Oh, yes. That's the superiority of Europe, with its master race. The rest never invent anything, you know. Add to those Europeans achievemnets the invention of Spagetti, of course.
Funny is that few modern Europeans see themselves as part of a race, only perpetual whiners like you do.
 
As for the gnocchi, they were, IIRC, a Roman dish. Even today, in regions like Sardinia, you'll find the receipe without potatoes.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2008 at 17:11
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by Pinguin

Oh, yes. That's the superiority of Europe, with its master race. The rest never invent anything, you know. Add to those Europeans achievemnets the invention of Spagetti, of course.
Funny is that few modern Europeans see themselves as part of a race, only perpetual whiners like you do.
 
Of course I used the term ironically, just to mean that in your culture the influences from the non-European world into Europe are very understimated. And that shows.
 
 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2008 at 21:02
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by pinguin

[QUOTE=gcle2003]Gnocchi were invented, potatos were discovered. Smile
 
Oh, yes. That's the superiority of Europe, with its master race. The rest never invent anything, you know. Add to those Europeans achievemnets the invention of Spagetti, of course.
I didn't say a word about who invented gnocchi. I don't even know for sure who invented gnocchi, though prima facie I'll take Chilbudios' word for it.
 
The point is that gnocchi (and indeed spaghetti and tortellini and pork pies and Pekin duck and chicken kiev et al) were invented whereas potatos were discovered.
 
But you of course had to find a racial angle to exploit.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2008 at 21:09
Originally posted by gcle2003

... 
The point is that gnocchi (and indeed spaghetti and tortellini and pork pies and Pekin duck and chicken kiev et al) were invented whereas potatos were discovered.
...
 
We were talking of deshidrated potatoes and the process to convert cocoa beans into chocolate. Those were inventions.
 
 
 
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2008 at 21:10
What are you people trying to accomplish with this thread?  After 5 pages of this, it looks like no one is going to convince anyone of anything.
Late Byzantine Military
Ottoman perceptions of the Americas
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 00:22
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Leonidas

... Which makes chocolate (as we know it) an impossiblity in native america.
  
 
Sorry fellow, but that's the most absurd comment I have read in this forum, so far. Chocolate was discovered and developed in the Americas, and perfected in Spain more than a century before the rest.
 
Talk about revisionism Shocked
I know, who would of thought some one was going to try and pass off that spicy drink with cocoa and IIRC chilli, as the same thing a chocolate bar. I suggest you read a book on the history of chocolate. The Europeans took the word and the bean, and then created something complety different and unique  from anything seen in south america. Chocolate became a sweet, not a spice. FYI only in the last three years (over here), have I seen top restaurants use cocoa as a spice and they dont call it chocolate.
 
Until you can seperate the Cocoa butter from the Cocoa powder you cant have chocolate as we understand that word. so show me a south american process that can pull the two most essential ingredients apart, add sugar and put in all togther in a solid tasty bar and I will apologise in a massive font.
 
BTW, This is like your clumsy alcohol claim, you need to be much more specific or atleast  eat some humble pie when someone qualifies your misleading or ill-informed statements


Edited by Leonidas - 08-May-2008 at 00:23
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 03:35
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Leonidas

... Which makes chocolate (as we know it) an impossiblity in native america.
  
 
Sorry fellow, but that's the most absurd comment I have read in this forum, so far. Chocolate was discovered and developed in the Americas, and perfected in Spain more than a century before the rest.
 
Talk about revisionism Shocked
I know, who would of thought some one was going to try and pass off that spicy drink with cocoa and IIRC chilli, as the same thing a chocolate bar. I suggest you read a book on the history of chocolate. The Europeans took the word and the bean, and then created something complety different and unique  from anything seen in south america. Chocolate became a sweet, not a spice. FYI only in the last three years (over here), have I seen top restaurants use cocoa as a spice and they dont call it chocolate.
 
Until you can seperate the Cocoa butter from the Cocoa powder you cant have chocolate as we understand that word. so show me a south american process that can pull the two most essential ingredients apart, add sugar and put in all togther in a solid tasty bar and I will apologise in a massive font.
 
BTW, This is like your clumsy alcohol claim, you need to be much more specific or atleast  eat some humble pie when someone qualifies your misleading or ill-informed statements
 
Of course Europeans improved the product, but so what? The fact that today Koreans make better radios than a century ago, because they put integrated circuits, composites and microchips in the modern Hi-Fi equipments DON'T MAKE THEM the inventors of radio!
 
Talk about revisionism Shocked 
 
But this excercise has been very interesting. It is precisely that attitude of the European people that makes them look so arrogant to the eyes of third world people, like myself.
 
Europeans still believe the tale they are descendents from the Greeks and that have the devine mission of illuminating the world... And please don't tell me I am wrong, because here we know your culture very well.
 
Fellows, people outside Europe has also discovered and invented many many things. And quite a few times -even today- some westerner comes to a third world country, copy an idea and patent like its invention! If you need sources, I can provide them, in private.
 
 
 
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 04:54
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Leonidas

... Which makes chocolate (as we know it) an impossiblity in native america.
  
 
Sorry fellow, but that's the most absurd comment I have read in this forum, so far. Chocolate was discovered and developed in the Americas, and perfected in Spain more than a century before the rest.
 
Talk about revisionism Shocked
I know, who would of thought some one was going to try and pass off that spicy drink with cocoa and IIRC chilli, as the same thing a chocolate bar. I suggest you read a book on the history of chocolate. The Europeans took the word and the bean, and then created something complety different and unique  from anything seen in south america. Chocolate became a sweet, not a spice. FYI only in the last three years (over here), have I seen top restaurants use cocoa as a spice and they dont call it chocolate.
 
Until you can seperate the Cocoa butter from the Cocoa powder you cant have chocolate as we understand that word. so show me a south american process that can pull the two most essential ingredients apart, add sugar and put in all togther in a solid tasty bar and I will apologise in a massive font.
 
BTW, This is like your clumsy alcohol claim, you need to be much more specific or atleast  eat some humble pie when someone qualifies your misleading or ill-informed statements
 
Of course Europeans improved the product, but so what? The fact that today Koreans make better radios than a century ago, because they put integrated circuits, composites and microchips in the modern Hi-Fi equipments DON'T MAKE THEM the inventors of radio!
 
Talk about revisionism Shocked 
its not the same product, it has one common ingredient, and is produced and consumed differently (also confectionary vs spice). you know it.
 
 Again you continue to show major flaws in your quest in a good euro bash. But i'll put the pie in the oven for you to eat just incase your relise, how silly your statements are.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

But this excercise has been very interesting. It is precisely that attitude of the European people that makes them look so arrogant to the eyes of third world people, like myself.
or conversersly of your inferiority complex. Maybe I should start a charity of self promoting history for poor pinguin -  the down trodden victim of european evil. I'll donate the wheel as a chilean invention, feel better know?
 
BTW I dont care if the eurpoeans or even if a apache warrior 2000BC invented chocolate, but i do care if someone is telling fibs or making inaccurate statements.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 05:34
Originally posted by Leonidas

...its not the same product, it has one common ingredient, and is produced and consumed differently (also confectionary vs spice). you know it.
.
 
It is the same product and period.
 
 
Originally posted by Leonidas

...
 Again you continue to show major flaws in your quest in a good euro bash. But i'll put the pie in the oven for you to eat just incase your relise, how silly your statements are.
.
 
 
Bashing what? That Europeans tend attribute to themselves some inventions and discoveries comming from other lands? That's not bashing but just telling a truth. 
 
Spaguetti is Chinese, for example. And pasta came from the Americas.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Leonidas

...
 or conversersly of your inferiority complex. Maybe I should start a charity of self promoting history for poor pinguin -  the down trodden victim of european evil. I'll donate the wheel as a chilean invention, feel better know?
 
We don't need European charity. Actually we were erased from the list of beggar countries long time ago. We don't need Europe knows us either. So, don't worry.
With respect to Chilean inventions, women around the world carry one in the womb, including Europeans. Find out, if you wish.
 
 
  
Originally posted by Leonidas

...
BTW I dont care if the eurpoean or even if a apache warrior 2000BC invented chocolate, but i do care if someone is telling fibs or making inaccurate statements.
 
The statements are accurate. And it is not only chocolate what Europeans have attributed to themselves, sir. Just research yourself that topic, if you care, of course.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 08-May-2008 at 05:38
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 08:43
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Leonidas

...its not the same product, it has one common ingredient, and is produced and consumed differently (also confectionary vs spice). you know it.
.
 
It is the same product and period.
 
 
dont think so...
 
Before chocolate was a sweet candy, it was a spicy drink. Some of the earliest known chocolate drinkers were the ancient Maya and Aztecs of Mesoamerica.
They ground cacao seeds into a paste that, when mixed with water, made a frothy, rather bitter beverage. Drinking chocolate was an important part of life for the Classic Period Maya and the Aztecs.
link
 
From Prehispanic times until the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, chocolate was largely a handmade product. Time consuming and expensive to produce, chocolate was available only to the wealthy as a beverage.

But new machinery of the industrial age made it possible to create solid chocolate and mass-produce this candy in enormous quantities at a fraction of the original cost. For the first time, most of the general public could afford this tasty treat.
Ibid
 
for more
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Originally posted by pinguin



Europeans still believe the tale they are descendents from the Greeks and that have the devine mission of illuminating the world... And please don't tell me I am wrong, because here we know your culture very well.
 
 

LOL No, we don't believe that. You are extremely arrogant if you believe you know more about what we think than people who live here.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 08-May-2008 at 08:43
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Originally posted by pinguin



Spaguetti is Chinese, for example. And pasta came from the Americas.

Spaghetti is gernally attributed to the Sicilian Arabs - and is part of "Western style" food in China! It's certainly not Chinese. Pasta was invented independently in China, in the West and in the Middle East. It's not that difficult to get the idea of mixing water and flour. Dried pasta is Middle Eastern in origin.
 


 
We don't need European charity. Actually we were erased from the list of beggar countries long time ago. We don't need Europe knows us either. So, don't worry.
With respect to Chilean inventions, women around the world carry one in the womb, including Europeans. Find out, if you wish. 

I bet child bearing was a Chilean invention.
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Originally posted by Pinguin

Spaguetti is Chinese, for example. And pasta came from the Americas.
You're really clueless when it comes to almost anything it seems. Pasta exists as a product having this name in European High Middle Ages before the contact with Americas, but we recognize it even in Roman receipes like laganum, a sheet of dough cooked in water and/in or oil, used with other ingredients, thus the ancestor of modern lasagna. String-like pasta is however dated in Europe from High Middle Ages, and probably the Arabs, the Jews and other Mediterranean populations had an influence in their development. I doubt the Chinese tradition influenced the European one too much. Like I said earlier, flour is a very ancient product Wink
 
We don't need European charity. Actually we were erased from the list of beggar countries long time ago. We don't need Europe knows us either. So, don't worry.
He was talking of you. Predictably you managed not to understand a iota and regurgitate the same anti-European speech.
 
 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 11:12
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by gcle2003

... 
The point is that gnocchi (and indeed spaghetti and tortellini and pork pies and Pekin duck and chicken kiev et al) were invented whereas potatos were discovered.
...
 
We were talking of deshidrated potatoes and the process to convert cocoa beans into chocolate. Those were inventions.
 
 
That's the point I was making. Dehydration and restitution are inventions: however the potato is a discovery. So one part of the world invents dehydrating potatoes, another invents dehydrating meat, another dehydrating yams.
 
And the process to make cocoa into what we now call chocolate (which is solid and sweet not liquid and spicy - not what the Aztecs called xocolatl ) was invented by Europeans (wikipedia has it in Turin in the late 18th century).
 
The drink we call chocolate and sometimes cocoa (which is also sweet, not spicy) was invented earlier, by Europeans, but I think in the Americas, notably Jamaica.
 
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 15:20
Pinguin, I think you are foolishly confusing innovation with invention. Innovation would be if I took something that was made by a different culture or person and used it to make something new. An example of this would be the European use of chocolate. Invention would be if I discovered a new process for making something.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 15:36
Originally posted by King John

Pinguin, I think you are foolishly confusing innovation with invention. Innovation would be if I took something that was made by a different culture or person and used it to make something new. An example of this would be the European use of chocolate. Invention would be if I discovered a new process for making something.
 
Agreed.
 
Yes, the European innovation in this case was the chocolate bar. Which has its merits, no doubt.
 
The Amerindian invention was the way to process of chocolate from the seeds to a drinking solution. By the way, that's actually chocolate: a drinking solution. So perhaps we have a semantic confussion with the association of chocolate with chocolate-bars.
 
The American discovery was to find out that plant could produce something useful (which is not obvious at the first look)
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 08-May-2008 at 15:38
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But, if that plant doesn't exist anywhere else why is it such a big deal that Amerindians used it as a drink?

There is, however, a point when innovation become an invention. Take chocolate, the innovation led to the invention of modern chocolate - that is chocolate as a sweet not a spice. The meaning of chocolate has changed. The modern sense of chocolate IS an invention of Europeans. Why is that so hard to grasp?
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