The future of Karabakh

Sultan

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Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 13:53

Originally posted by The Chargemaster

One more question:
Is the problem with the occupied azerbaijanian territory the same(or of the sort) as the problem with the occupied by Israel arabian lands?

Nagorno-Karabakh was an Autonomous Region within Azerbaijan, under USSR.

At this moment it's a "de jure part of the Republic of Azerbaijan, unilaterally declared itself an independent republic in 1991".

You can read an impartial and meanigfull description here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/3658938.stm

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Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

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Chieftain

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Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 14:25

Thanks for the link Yannis! Smile

Well, i agree that novadays the situation is not pink for both sides, but i don`t believe that if Armenia return back the disputed territories, Turkey and Azerbaijan will stop with the blockade of their borders with Armenia. Maybe they will say: "Bravo. That was the first step. Now you must pay lots of money for the destructions in the returned territories and for the missing relatives to the refugees. After that, you must stop calling the mutual massacres between 1895 - 1922 a "genocide". And only until all that, we bit by bit will begin the process of removing the blockade."

So as say azimuth:

"Stay Strong Armenia, Resist and Newer bow to the tyrant neighbours!"

Edited by The Chargemaster - 16-Jul-2006 at 14:28

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Chieftain

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Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 15:30

Originally posted by bg_turk

One million Azeri refugees still live in the hope of returning, and nobody has the right to take this hope from them. Comparing the plight of Azeri refugees to the Armenian exile during WW1 is unserious to say the least. Most of the Armenian "refugees" are now dead long time ago, and their decendants have never been and in most cases do not wish to return to their grandparents lands now that they live comfortable lives in the West. Most Azeris on the other hand still live in misery and in tents. Besides trying to fix refugee problems from as far as WW1 would open pandoras box. Germany and Poland are still at odds over the refugee issues during WW2, imagine going back all the way to WW1. We cannot keep on justifying current wrongs, with past wrongs. The line must be drawn somewhere, and the wrongs in Cyprus, Bosnia and Garbagh, must be accounted for and their perpetrators held responsible.

Well if Armenia has to fix its refugee problem of 10 years ago, it will just open up a whole pandora's box... Azerbaijan will then have to be held accountable for the 350,000 refugees it caused (and all their lost businesses), not to mention owning up and paying up for its illegal military occupation which started the war (this was the biggest crime, since it had the biggest result). Oh ya, and its destruction of Armenian historical sites within its borders, not to mention its expulsion of Armenians from Nakhichevan. Yes, lets hold the perpetrators responsible, I'm completely with you on this one, bg_turk. All Armenia has to do is fix one mistake (refugees) and a dozen of their mistakes will be fixed for them (at least in theory they would be). Oh and maybe after this is settled, coastal Azerbaijan and Turkey can lift their blockades on landlocked Armenia.

And you called mamikon a propaganda spreader, he simply said there are 750,000 Azeri refugees (U.N. number) and 350,000 Armenian refugees (and counting the 1988 earthquake in Armenia, it has at least as many refugees as Azerbaijan). I'd say both countries suffered equally, but the point is, it all started when Azerbaijan impeded the rights of autonomous Karabagh, who was only defending itself from an illegal military occupation. Tell me, should the people of Karabagh have allowed the Azeri military to illegally occupy them?

Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 16-Jul-2006 at 15:35

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Mortaza

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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 02:15

That`s the voice of the forcefull Turkey. But i don`t think that the armenian will/determination will be crushed so easy.

Infact Armenia lost 20% of her population because of blockades, and poor economy.I dont llike this, but turkey should do what she must.

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Chieftain

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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 03:13

Originally posted by Mortaza

Infact Armenia lost 20% of her population because of blockades, and poor economy.I dont llike this, but turkey should do what she must.

Well, Bulgaria also was(and steel is) derelict/forsaken by many people. Novadays is very popular for the poor people to work somewhere in EU or in USA.

Edited by The Chargemaster - 17-Jul-2006 at 03:17

Bulldog

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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 11:28

"Stay Strong Armenia, Resist and Newer bow to the tyrant neighbours!"

That's all lovely and everything but there is a problem, the tyrant is Armenia. Its Armenia who is the agressor, Armenia who is Ilegally occupying a chunk of another country and Armenia who has massacred tens of thousands of people and resulted in 1 million people loosing their homes.

So the argument would make more sense if you wrote, Stay Strong Azerbaycan, resist and never bow to the tyrant Neighbours.

Also Armenia is a tyrant to the people of the country, the ordinary Armenian is suffering because the wacko's ruling the country are incapable of planning for the future, looking after the people and doing anything to benefit the country. The only thing keeping Armenia on its feet is hatred against Turks, which isn't a very healthy way to live.

Armenia can carry on all it likes but the longer this goes on the more it will loose because its Armenia and the 50% people who live below the poverty and hunger level who are suffering. Armenia is doing nothing to help its people, now you can call this whatever name you like but to the people suffering I think the best word is SELFISH NEGLECT.

I'm with the poor Armenians who are made to suffer because of their countries ridiculously backwards politics.

Oh ArmenianDude, so now Azerbaycan is responsible for causing Earthquakes

whatever next.

This guy is trying to compare regugees caused because Armenia destroyed their towns and villages to refugees caused by an Earthquake. If that's the case, Turkey can blame its Earthquake on you, Japan can blame its Earthquakes on Korea, China can blame its Earthquakes on Japan. The audacity of it.

Edited by Bulldog - 17-Jul-2006 at 11:31

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Artaxiad

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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 13:25

Bulldog, before calling Armenia a "tyrant neighbour", you have to understand why the Armenians of Karabagh had to defend their land in the first place. The root of the problem is certainly not Armenia nor Armenians... Learn about the progroms in Baku, Sumgait, Ganja (Kirovabad), etc. Learn about the one and only Referendum in Karabagh which was done in accordance with Soviet law, etc.

The so-called "wacko"s ruling the country have to face neighbours such as Turkey and Azerbaijan, not neighbours like Austria or Luxembourg. They have to face isolation due to the blockade imposed by both of its Turkic neighbours. And they (the Armenian people) have to thrive in a country which doesn't even have a trade route via the sea and is basically made of mountains.

As the Chargemaster said, if Armenians dismantle the Republic of Karabagh, Turkey and Azerbaijan would have more and more outlandish demands and they would keep the borders closed in order to pressure Armenia to fulfill those demands. If Armenians have learned anything throughout its years in or near the Ottoman Empire is that they could never trust Turkish governments, whether they present themselves as unruly barbarians, "Europeanized" Anatolians or pious Muslims because we all know that they are not.

bg_turk

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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 16:23

Originally posted by Artaxiad

Bulldog, before calling Armenia a "tyrant neighbour", you have to understand why the Armenians of Karabagh had to defend their land in the first place.

Defend their land by invading land that was exclusively populated by Azeri's and ethnically cleanse it from its indigensous population? That is not called defense it is an aggessive invasion, a true crime against humanity.

As the Chargemaster said, if Armenians dismantle the Republic of Karabagh, Turkey and Azerbaijan would have more and more outlandish demands and they would keep the borders closed in order to pressure Armenia to fulfill those demands.

Believe me it is not in Turkey's interest to keep the borders closed. Because of the blockade previously prosperous regions in Eastern Turkey, such as the Kars region, are now stagnating, there is very strong pressue on the Turkish government to open the border. In fact Turkey is looking for every excuse to open the border, but given the Armenian intransigence, Turkey simply cannot justify the lifting of the blockade in front of the Turkish public, not when Azeri Turks are languishing in misery due to the Armenian occpation. Turkey simply cannot trade with a state which sponsors the illegal Karabakh regime and illegally occupies the properties of more than a million Azeri refugees.

If Armenians have learned anything throughout its years in or near the Ottoman Empire is that they could never trust Turkish governments, whether they present themselves as unruly barbarians, "Europeanized" Anatolians or pious Muslims because we all know that they are not.

And this from the trustworthy Armenians who have always sided with the Turk's enemies, backstabbed Turks at every opportunity that was presented to them, and that still have territorial pretentions towards at least three of their four neighbours.

bg_turk

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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 16:54

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Well if Armenia has to fix its refugee problem of 10 years ago, it will just open up a whole pandora's box...

If Turkey is to be held responsible for refugees from more than 30 years ago, Serbia - for refugees from 10 years ago, it is only natural that Armenia be held responsible for her crimes too. Armenia simply cannot ask for exceptions and exemptions from international law.

Azerbaijan will then have to be held accountable for the 350,000 refugees it caused (and all their lost businesses), not to mention owning up and paying up for its illegal military occupation which started the war (this was the biggest crime, since it had the biggest result). Oh ya, and its destruction of Armenian historical sites within its borders, not to mention its expulsion of Armenians from Nakhichevan. Yes, lets hold the perpetrators responsible, I'm completely with you on this one, bg_turk. All Armenia has to do is fix one mistake (refugees) and a dozen of their mistakes will be fixed for them (at least in theory they would be).

I do not know what your sources for the 350,000 figures is, nor have I read about the destruction of Armenian historical sights (excepts from Armenian sources), but overall I agree with your drift. All I am asking for is that each and every crime be accounted for and corrected iby independet courts (like the ECHR in the case of Cyprus). I am all for the return and repropriation of Baku Armenians.

A compromise win-win situation must be found for both Armenia and Azerbaijan. Armenia cannot insist on building her prosperity on the misery of millions of Azeri refugees.

Tell me, should the people of Karabagh have allowed the Azeri military to illegally occupy them?

Occupy them? The Azeri millitary never even came close to occupying Garabagh. Azerbaijan mostly relied on the Soviet central government for a solution, and was not prepared for a millitary confrontation. It was only after the Armenian practices of scorched earth and brutal attacks of civilian population, that the Azeris started the millitary buildup in order to prevent the unchecked Armenian expansion with the intention to acquire millitarily as much territory as possible regardless of the ethnic make-up of those territories.

Edited by bg_turk - 17-Jul-2006 at 16:57

mamikon

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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 17:55

Originally posted by bg_turk

]Defend their land by invading land that was exclusively populated by Azeri's and ethnically cleanse it from its indigensous population? That is not called defense it is an aggessive invasion, a true crime against humanity.

Agressive invasion would have been if they had reached Baku...make no mistake they very well could have, especially if Republic of Armenia was to help. Invading the land nearby Karabkh is called a buffer, and its to stop Azeries from barraging Stepanakert with missiles.

Originally posted by bg_turk

n fact Turkey is looking for every excuse to open the border, but given the Armenian intransigence

Are you kidding? The government of Turkey is demanding that Armenia drop the pressure due to the Armenian Genocide, and remove all of Armenian troops from Karabkh (that includes Karabakh troops) Stern Smile

Originally posted by bg_Turk

And this from the trustworthy Armenians who have always sided with the Turk's enemies, backstabbed Turks at every opportunity that was presented to them, and that still have territorial pretentions towards at least three of their four neighbours.

Armenians have lived peacefully for 500 years under the Ottoman Empire without "stabbing anyone", come the Young Turks and more than a million of Armenians are murdered in a year.

Originally posted by bg_turk

If Turkey is to be held responsible for refugees from more than 30 years ago, Serbia - for refugees from 10 years ago, it is only natural that Armenia be held responsible for her crimes too. Armenia simply cannot ask for exceptions and exemptions from international law.

surely, no one is except...so why doesnt Turkey make a good example and bring back its refugees from more than 30 years ago and then we can talk. Until then, your phrase above means absolutely nothing.

Originally posted by bg_Turk

I do not know what your sources for the 350,000 figures is, nor have I read about the destruction of Armenian historical sights (excepts from Armenian sources),

To remind, the European Parliament overwhelmingly adopted a resolution condemning the Azerbaijani government's destruction of the Armenian cemetery in Djulfa, a unique archaeological treasure located in the Nakhichevan autonomous republic administered by Azerbaijan. The resolution, which was approved by a vote of 85 to 5, noted that, "serious allegations have been raised about the involvement of the Azerbaijani authorities in the destruction of these monuments" and stressed that " Azerbaijan has not provided answers [on this matter to] the former special rapporteur of the United Nations." Based on these and other findings, the European Parliament �strongly condemns the destruction of the Djulfa cemetery [�]� and �demands that Azerbaijan allow missions dedicated to surveying and protecting the archaeological heritage on its territory, especially Armenian heritage [�].� The measure also asks Azerbaijan to �allow a European Parliament delegation to visit the archaeological site at Djulfa.�

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=16498

Thats an Armenian news site. It only gives the news concerning Armenia, and no opinions.

Originally posted by bg_turk

A compromise win-win situation must be found for both Armenia and Azerbaijan. Armenia cannot insist on building her prosperity on the misery of millions of Azeri refugees.

What would that be? by the way...who is making millions of dollars from the oil business, lets hope these poor people you speak of get some help from Azeri "rulers" who are too busy cramming dollars in their own pockets and calling for war, instead of solving their real problems.

Originally posted by bg_Turk

Occupy them? The Azeri millitary never even came close to occupying Garabagh. Azerbaijan mostly relied on the Soviet central government for a solution, and was not prepared for a millitary confrontation. It was only after the Armenian practices of scorched earth and brutal attacks of civilian population, that the Azeris started the millitary buildup in order to prevent the unchecked Armenian expansion with the intention to acquire millitarily as much territory as possible regardless of the ethnic make-up of those territories.

I cant believe you are saying that. Then who do you think launched a massive invasion in 1992 under Iskender (the Grey Wolf defense minister of Azerbaijan). In 1991 both Armenia and Azerbaijan received hundreds of heavy vehicles including BTRs and the related. Note Armenia, not Karabakh.

bg_turk

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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 18:52

Originally posted by Mamikon

Are you kidding? The government of Turkey is demanding that Armenia drop the pressure due to the Armenian Genocide, and remove all of Armenian troops from Karabkh (that includes Karabakh troops) Stern Smile

The only precondition for the normalization of relations is that Armenia respects the soveregnity of Azerbiajan and recognzies the territorial integrity of Turkey. The Armenian insistance and obessession with labelling the events of 1915 has never been a precondition for the normalization of the relations, and it cannot be because it would run counter to the Turkish thesis that the isssue should be left to the historians, and not the politicians or the states.

Yesterday�s offer came from a body born out of a European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruling last December ordering Turkey to find �effective domestic remedies� to property disputes stemming from the displacement of Greek Cypriots during the invasion in 1974.

The two properties to be returned are both in the north eastern village of Akanthou, Erkman said. A third applicant was offered cash in return for their property �because that is what they wanted,� she added.

Under recent changes in Turkish Cypriot law, properties belonging to displaced Greek Cypriots can be returned immediately if they are not being used by a citizen of the breakaway state, the �state� itself, or the military. It is understood that the two properties in Akanthou have remained empty since 1974

Source: http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=26485&archive=1

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=16498

Thats an Armenian news site. It only gives the news concerning Armenia, and no opinions.

Wonderful! Just a while ago you accused Bulldog for posting from "propaganda" websites, and now you are yourself quoting from the very moutpiece of Armenian-propaganda (which often writes in rather bad English and has thousands of Turk-bashing articles). Is that the best you can find? I would have expected you to quote directly from the European Parliament.

I agree. I too believe that Azerbiajan (along with Armenia) is in serious need of democratic reforms. But this does not absolve Armenia from her responsibility for her crimes against Azeri civilians.

     Simultaneously paramilitary formations grow in number and
strength on both sides, as the parties seem to build up for a military
solution of the conflict. Again the Armenians were more active than the
Azeris (who seemed to rely more upon the Soviet central government for
a solution) and a considerable flow of arms from mainland Armenia to
Karabakh was reported. Observers have noted how planes loaded with
military equipment, coming from Beirut, landed in Yerevan and how the
materiel was subsequently transported to Karabakh.11 In this
environment of heavily armed paramilitary forces, the escalation of the
conflict was irreversible. Sporadic clashes became frequent, and by June
1991, the casualties of the conflict were estimated at 816.
    From this point onwards, Armenian militants started taking control
of Nagorno Karabakh. As their uprising grew, the militants were
supported by regular armed forces of the Republic of Armenia�a fact
which Armenia still denies in spite of evidence of the contrary�and,
what is more, by Russian �volunteers� (in some cases complete armed
units with full equipment). The fact that most �volunteers� were regular
soldiers of the Soviet armed forces indicates to which extent they were
actually volunteers.
...
     During Autumn, Azerbaijani forces move to counter Nagorno
Karabakh�s declaration of independence, and Armenians respond by
conquering or retaking villages.
     As the Azerbaijani government realizes the military force behind the
Karabakh Armenians, it proceeds to nationalize all military hardware in
the republic and to recall all Azeri conscripts from the Soviet army.
Furthermore, as a direct answer to the declaration of independence, the
Azeri parliament on 26 November abolishes the autonomous status of
Nagorno Karabakh and reduces it to a �region�, with the same status as
any other district. Naturally, this move has more of a theoretical political
importance than a real value, since the military control of the region was
rapidly slipping out of Baku�s hands.
     Faced with a powerful aggression, the ill-organized forces of the
Azerbaijani republic were unable to protect their lands, and by 1992 the
military situation for Azerbaijan was disastrous. Not only the territory of
the NKAO was under the control of Armenian forces, but also
neighbouring and surrounding regions, which were homogeneously
Azeri-populated. Totally, over 20% of the territory of the Republic of
Azerbaijan remains under occupation.

Source:
Undeclared War: The Nagorn- Karabakh Conflict Reconsidered
Svante E. Cornell
Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Vol. XX, No. 4, Summer 1997

Edited by bg_turk - 17-Jul-2006 at 19:22

bg_turk

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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 19:02

Many
Azerbaijanis, particularly those who
suffered directly from the Armenian
military advances, are convinced that the
Armenians had a plan to exterminate
Azerbaijanis throughout Karabakh and in
the corridor that lies between Armenia and
the autonomous district. In extensive
interviews carried out in August 1998 with
refugees and �internally dispersed persons�
(IDPs) now living in Tartar, Barda, Sumgait
and Baku, a very clear story emerged.11
Armenian militias along with civilian
compatriots systematically cleansed the
corridor separating Armenia from
Karabakh in a cold-blooded campaign.
Armed bands relied on local Armenians to
identify Azerbaijani villages and homes and
then recruited these people to burn down
the homes of their neighbors. One IDP
recounted that his one-time Armenian
neighbor told him, �We don�t kill you
because we want your land. We kill you
because you are Muslim.� Such narratives
of betrayal are mixed with reports of
inhuman atrocities, and several informants
described Armenians as �animals.� Finally,
Azerbaijanis see Armenians as particularly
privileged in their close ties to the Russian
and European worlds, while they as
Muslims suffer discrimination and conde-
scension from the West and North.
Within Azerbaijan the refugee and IDP
camps are the seedbeds for narratives of
�return� and �revenge.� From 1988 to
1993, an estimated 20,000 Azerbaijanis
were killed, all but a few hundred in the
fighting; 233,700 refugees were created
along with 551,000 IDPs.12 The bulk of
these refugees and IDPs were from
Azerbaijani territory outside the formal
borders of Karabakh itself. While many
IDPs claim that they left because their
government urged them to do so while the
Azerbaijani army attempted to resist the
Armenian incursion, a significant percent-
age told how they attempted to hold on to
their properties until mortar shells hit their
houses. Others who had left earlier heard
later that their homes had been burnt to
their foundations.13 Jobless, without hope,
unintegrated in Azerbaijani society, the
refugees construct and reconstruct their
horrible past.

Source:
Armenia and Azerbaijan: Thinking a Way out of Karabakh
Latin & Sunny
MIDDLE EAST POLICY, VOL. VII, NO. 1, OCTOBER 1999

Edited by bg_turk - 17-Jul-2006 at 19:04

bg_turk

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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 19:17

Originally posted by Artaxiad

Learn about the progroms in Baku, Sumgait, Ganja (Kirovabad), etc. Learn about the one and only Referendum in Karabagh which was done in accordance with Soviet law, etc.

As horrific as the killings in Azerbaijan
were, it should be noted that the initial
tragic events in Sumgait and Baku were
affairs of a few days rather than a me-
thodical, prolonged genocide of local
Armenians. Ethnic violence did not spread
from city to city, village to village. There
was no overall Azerbaijani plan to rid
Azerbaijan of Armenians, certainly not to
murder them systematically. Even today
some Armenians manage to live in Baku
without overt threat or ethnic slurs. What-
ever the role of Azerbaijani officials � and
that remains murky � it is clear that the
key actors in the pogroms,particularly
those in Baku in 1990, were Azerbaijani
refugees forced out of Armenia.
Yet the riots and killings fatally
colored the mutual understandings of these
two nationalities, making each see itself as
victim and the other as oppressor. The
Armenian view of their desperate situation
is well known in the West, while the
Azerbaijani vision of victimhood is far less
appreciated. Azerbaijani claims to inno-
cence are coupled with Armenian guilt in
popular narratives.

Source: Latin & Sunny.

Now contrast these sporadic acts of revenge by disgruntled Azeri refugees, with the methodogical and systematic cleansing and scorched earth policy implemented in the occupied territories by the Armenians.

Edited by bg_turk - 17-Jul-2006 at 19:34