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Normans?

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Normans?
    Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 14:01
Originally posted by Chilbudios

For one thing, being Roman is much different than being French (or belonging to many other ethnicities/medieval identity groups). In some periods of the Empire (let's say during 3rd century for example) you could be Roman though you were ethnically Lybian or whatever.


     

Have you any idea at all about how many different and distinct ethnicities were considered French in the 11th century? France was a conglomerate of many different groups - Bretons, Gallo-Franks, Occitanians, Flaems, and many others. They didn't even all speak French or any dialect of French!

(well, Theodoric was "Roman", had educated his children in the Roman way, tried to impose a public Roman school


I'm not sure how much he "imposed" anything. The Ostrogothic Kingdom mostly consisted of established non-Ostrogothic "Roman" populations.

The "Romans" among the barbarians from the 5th-6th century kingdoms were just a small elite which in itself was not fully persuaded to adopt the new culture. As Theodoric said: "the poor Roman imitates the Goth, the rich Goth imitates the Roman".

Coming back to Normans, were they just imitating the continental society?


Yep, with a few innovations.

It's all about identity - assumed and perceived from outside.


The Normans identified themselves as Normans, distinct from the French (despite being a part of the French culture), and were perceived as very, very distinct by the French.

This is a really funny point. So a Marseillese is not French, because he's speaking in dialect? Let's plunge in the middle of 11th century, were the Aquitans French? But the Burgundians? Or for you France is a small "island" around Paris??


See my above comment on the diversity of France.

Remember that medieval kingdoms were nothing like modern nation-states; they were generally the cultural empire of a small group. Paris and London being classic examples, up until the birth of nations.


The conquerors of William were speaking French and installed the French language (dialectal as it was) in England.


For a very brief period, and with limited success. It would better be stated that they attempted to install the French language, but ended up speaking English themselves.

What's yourreason to consider them Scandinavian? How were they culturally representing Scandinavia and how were they culturally representing the continental post-Carolingian France?


They were a hybrid culture. Franko-Norse, if you like (rather like the term "Anglo-Norman"). Practically speaking, the Normans were the Normans.
    
Originally posted by Konstantin

The racial admixture with the vikings is a fact and can be seen in many traits exhibited by the vikings.The Normans inherited from their viking ancestors the naval skills,the surprise attacks,the speed of movement,the brutality and ruthlesness.


That hasn't got anything to do with race or genetics ... it's vestiges of their Scandinavian cultural heritage.
    

Edited by edgewaters - 19-Jul-2006 at 14:07
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 15:52
Have you any idea at all about how many different and distinct ethnicities were considered French in the 11th century? France was a conglomerate of many different groups - Bretons, Gallo-Franks, Occitanians, Flaems, and many others. They didn't even all speak French or any dialect of French!
I see you have a habit to argue through anachronisms! The Roman occupation came over Gauls with about a millenium before the dates we argue about. The Franks came here about a half of a millenium. So did the other Germanic tribes (Goths, Alamans, Burgunds) which created the diversity of these "ethnicities".
People change faster than your imagination seems to allow them to. My earlier source even claimed that Scandinavians were fast acculturated. You had no counterargument to that.
 
Please point out the date in history when the Bretons and the Franks and the Goths became French. If you're unable to, then please tell me why these are different ethnicities. Provide arguments, so far I've seen only statements.
 
I'm not sure how much he "imposed" anything. The Ostrogothic Kingdom mostly consisted of established non-Ostrogothic "Roman" populations.
I fail to see what your point is.
He certainly gave an impulse a public education when he paid wages to the teachers from the schools of Rome. While your observation is quasi-irrelevant as the education in the Roman Empire decayed severely since the 4th century, especially during the 5th (so what the majority of the population was "Roman"?). It's not like Theodoric's measures saved it, but he tried to do something to save it.
 
Yep, with a few innovations.
"Yep" is your argument? Please bring evidences or if you can't then refrain from spamming this thread with blunt and repetitive statements. I think everybody understood by now that you won't concede that Normans are French.
 
The Normans identified themselves as Normans, distinct from the French (despite being a part of the French culture), and were perceived as very, very distinct by the French.
Like above, a trivial repetitive statement (and quasi-tautological) having zero argumentative value.
Let me sketch our "dialogue":
Me: All it's about how A is seen.
You: A was seen as A, so much different from B.
LOL
 
See my above comment on the diversity of France.
Nothing valueable there. Sorry! LOL
 
Remember that medieval kingdoms were nothing like modern nation-states; they were generally the cultural empire of a small group. Paris and London being classic examples, up until the birth of nations.
I think you should remember that. I never mentioned the word "nation". I even attempted to discuss why Normans are French and why Normans are Scandinavians and see what is the more appropriate appartenence, however the only answer I could get from you was "Normans are not French".
 
For a very brief period, and with limited success. It would better be stated that they attempted to install the French language, but ended up speaking English themselves.
Irrelevant. The issue is not if the succesors of William I were French or English, but whether the immediate ancestors and contemporaries of William I were French or Scandinavian. The question is why did they installed French in England and not a Scandinavian language?
 
They were a hybrid culture. Franko-Norse, if you like (rather like the term "Anglo-Norman"). Practically speaking, the Normans were the Normans.
How much Frankish? How much Norse? Don't worry, I have a feeling I won't get any answer from you and I have already my hand on my second mentioned source - Lucien Musset. If you're unable to argue, I will Wink
 
 
Aelfgifu, I think I solved the Normans = pirates dilemma. I will come a bit later with the response. I also think the peoples listed by Richer of Rheims as being under the authority of Hugo Capet are the provinces (dukedoms) of France i.e. Bretania, Normandy, Gasconia, Gothia etc.
 
 
 
Oh, Edgewaters, and I think I know a reason for your confusion:
 
That hasn't got anything to do with race or genetics ...
Well, being French has little to do with the genetics. Especially in the medieval world where an identity could be created/assumed within the same generation.
I think it's a question of socio-cultural identity.  


Edited by Chilbudios - 19-Jul-2006 at 15:57
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 21:02
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Dont have it here, Im at my parents house, I will look it up when Im back in my room... Its a book, not an article...
But I remember it was just one exaple in a list which shows that both the Normans and the Franks considered there was a difference between them.
 
Of course there would be  differences between them. You hardly know anything about France, do you? People from regions to regions vary greatly in customs and dialects (it is the same with Germany). France can even be broken into France proper (northern France) and Occitania (southern France)
 
May I remind you the Franks denominator also applied to Normans (refer to tapestry of Bayeux where the invaders of England were collectively referred as Franci (Franks or French)). Normans were Franks.  But a Norman and a Francilians (the merovingian Franks) have major differences, just like  Normans and Angevins weren't the same. But they all fell under the same culture as French. They belong to the Francia occidentalis sphere (although I would not consider the Breton and Burgundian as french entities at the time; the Normans, Francilians and Angevins were beyond any doubt solid French factions (with culture and tradition firmly rooted).)
 
 Yet Norman French and Parisian French have more in common that with say Aquitanian French.


Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 20-Jul-2006 at 00:09
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 21:18
Have you any idea at all about how many different and distinct ethnicities were considered French in the 11th century? France was a conglomerate of many different groups - Bretons, Gallo-Franks, Occitanians, Flaems, and many others. They didn't even all speak French or any dialect of French!
 
You get it all wrong, simply because you are unacquainted with the history of France and what the term French mean. French, here, isn't a nationality but a culture and associated with a set of customs. It only has a loose racial element. The Normans were mostly Gallic (with  minimal Franks, roman and scandivian inputs), while the Francilians were Gallo-Franks (with considerable roman input), yet they were both French.
 
Breton, in those days, weren't considered French; they spoke a different language although they were associated with Francia occidentalis, culturally speaking they weren't French (nowadays they are considered French beyond any doubt).
 
Same could be said about the occitanians in those days.
 
THe only French factions by 1066 were the Francilians, Normans, Angevins and region of immediate influence such as Blois.
 
 
And People, Norman French is a dialect of langue d'oil just like Parisian French is dialect of Langue D'oil. The difference between the two languages were trivial and they were perfectly intelligible. Both were langue d'oil dialects of old French. A langue D'oc (in the south of France) and langue d'oil were also intelligble.
 


Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 20-Jul-2006 at 00:20
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 21:20
I think you should remember that. I never mentioned the word "nation". I even attempted to discuss why Normans are French and why Normans are Scandinavians and see what is the more appropriate appartenence, however the only answer I could get from you was "Normans are not French".
 
I think you too are falling into the trap of thinking the word French has to be associated with the world nation. No! French started as a culture that progated throughout what is now modern France.  The nucleus of French culture was in Normandy, Anjou, and ile-de-france.
 
If the Francilians hadn't gotten into the way of the Angevin and Normans (who established the first French overseas colony) by cutting them off the continent and therefore preventing the influx of continental French to the British island, French would have been the principal language of England and europe today.


Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 20-Jul-2006 at 00:18
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 03:42
Quetzacoatl, I'm not considering them as a nation, on contrary, I'm trying to see the "French" of 11th century as a medieval identity (mostly cultural).
Can you detail about Bretons and Burgunds being separated identities at this time?
Especially Burgunds (and shouldn't we make differences beween the kingdom of Burgundy and the dukedom/duchy of Burgundy?), because I'm thinking of Burgundian phenomena like Cluny, and even the "peace of God".
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 20-Jul-2006 at 03:47
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 04:04
Originally posted by Chilbudios

My earlier source even claimed that Scandinavians were fast acculturated. You had no counterargument to that.


Why would I argue against something I have already agreed upon? Yes, the Normans took upon themselves French culture, but they retained elements of Scandinavian culture as well.

Please point out the date in history when the Bretons and the Franks and the Goths became French. If you're unable to, then please tell me why these are different ethnicities.


This is quite spurious. You want a "date"? This is a process that took centuries. I would say it did not reach its final completion until the emergence of the nation-state in the 18th and 19th centuries.

It's not like Theodoric's measures saved it, but he tried to do something to save it.


You've gone from "imposing" a new thing to attempting to "save" an old and existant thing. In just a few sentences.

"Yep" is your argument? Please bring evidences or if you can't thenrefrain from spamming this thread with blunt and repetitive statements.


You want me to provide evidences why I agree that Normans had adopted continental culture?

It's a basic premise of both our arguments that I presume we agree upon. Why would that need evidence? I'm curious as to what problem you would have with this premise, as you seemed to be trying to establish it earlier. I was merely agreeing upon it as a premise, not making an argument.

The issue is not if the succesors of William I were French or English, but whether the immediate ancestors and contemporaries of William I were French or Scandinavian.


You haven't been following my argument, or this thread very much. The issue is not whether they were French or Scandinavian. The issue is whether they can be considered to have at least partially Scandinavian influences and whether or not they were a distinct group in France.

How much Frankish? How much Norse?


As if it was a quantifiable value, rather than qualitative. Please, at least frame your questions in a sensible form. For instance, "What was the nature of French influence in Norman culture? How does it contrast with Scandinavian influences, if there even were any?"

I can't answer a nonsensical question.
    
    
    
    
    

Edited by edgewaters - 20-Jul-2006 at 04:20
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 04:15
Quetzacoatl, I'm not considering them as a nation, on contrary, I'm trying to see the "French" of 11th century as a medieval identity (mostly cultural).
Can you detail about Bretons and Burgunds being separated identities at this time?
Especially Burgunds (and shouldn't we make differences beween the kingdom of Burgundy and the dukedom/duchy of Burgundy?), because I'm thinking of Burgundian phenomena like Cluny, and even the "peace of God".
 
 
Well, although many Bretons spoke French (especially the elites)--unlike Normandy, Anjou or Ile-de-France--the Breton also spoke widely a celtic language.
 
Burgundy (the kingdom around Lyon, now Rhone-alpes region), although one may say they were French (they spoke provencal French, didn't they) their sphere of influence fell into the HRE; they didn't have the French king as overlord as it was the case with Normandy and Anjou.
 
From a modern POV, Burgundians and Bretons are obviously French, but not in 1066.
 
Here is a map
 
 
 
 
The limit of Francia Occidentalis is shown. Within Francia Occidentalis, there were two competing French factions: the Angevin (centred around Anjou) and the Francilians (which control Flanders, Blois, Ile-de-France and Burgundy the Duchy).
 
I really can't figure it out how the Francilians managed to beat the Angevins. If I was born in those days, I would have definitely been part of the Angevins.
 
Do you think Anger would have been the capital of France if the Angevin had won? Or would they simply move to Paris?


Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 20-Jul-2006 at 04:31
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 04:18

You are quite vain Edgewaters; why do you keep denying the facts. You sound like a broken record.



Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 20-Jul-2006 at 04:36
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 04:24
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

You are quite vain Edgewaters; why do keep denying the facts. You sound like a broken record.



Are you unable to distinguish a fact from a conclusion, and a premise from an argument?

It appears to me there are really no facts at dispute here, only conclusions.
    
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 04:34
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

You are quite vain Edgewaters; why do keep denying the facts. You sound like a broken record.



Are you unable to distinguish a fact from a conclusion, and a premise from an argument?

It appears to me there are really no facts at dispute here, only conclusions.
    
 
 
Coming from one who claims the viking fielded no armies, but only small raiding bands; it is certain that there are many facts at dispute here.


Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 20-Jul-2006 at 05:56
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 05:32
Originally posted by Edgewaters

Yes, the Normans took upon themselves French culture, but they retained elements of Scandinavian culture as well.
You were unable so far to point out what was French and what was Scandinavian in Normans and this is what I repeatedly asked you as in your previous contributions to this topic you emphasized a "mostly Scandinavian" nature of the Normans.
 
This is quite spurious. You want a "date"? This is a process that took centuries. I would say it did not reach its final completion until the emergence of the nation-state in the 18th and 19th centuries.
In this case read the proper documentation then come again and let's talk about the "French" before 18th century (abundently testified by the contemporary written documents and by the modern scholars). You keep promoting the same straw man of "France" as a modern nation, while I already clarified that this is the not the point I argue upon. Did I mention this is an anachronistic line of reasoning, as well? Confused
 
You've gone from "imposing" a new thing to attempting to "save" an old and existant thing. In just a few sentences.
I pity your abilities to read and understand and I disagree with your petty techniques of choosing convenient sentences out of paragraphs to distort this discussion to a cheap "I won". Though you would have a little gate to nit pick on semantics, I would accept it if you at least would prove yourself able to follow the logic of the discourse. Theodoric issued measures to support public education, Theodoric allocated (forcefully, if you wish, considering the nature of his ruleship) finances to public education. If you disagree with "imposing public education" you maybe would have accepted "imposing measures to support public education". But not mocking my intelligence by switching from one point of view to another and then pointing the finger at me.
 
You want me to provide evidences why I agree that Normans had adopted continental culture?
Straw man. You said "yep" to "Normans imitated" not to "Normans adopted". I was making the difference between "pretending to be" and "becoming". That would be one thing. The second thing would be to stop spamming and articulate through arguments (if you can).
 
You haven't been following my argument, or this thread very much. The issue is not whether they were French or Scandinavian. The issue is whether they can be considered to have at least partially Scandinavian influences and whether or not they were a distinct group in France.
I am not sure who's not following here.
Originally posted by Edgewaters, earlier

The Normans were mostly Scandinavians,
[...]
however, the Normans were more likely Norwegian.
[...]
Not only that, the Normans were in consistent alliance with Scandinavians. (my note: why would you bring such an argument unless you support a "Scandinavian mostly" nature of the Normans?)
Of course, in time you even changed your position to tautological sentences like this one (especially after "French language" argument):
Originally posted by Edgewaters, earlier

Normans are Normans.
The problem is you never conceded on anything, so the only thing I see is an apparently groundless opposition to "Normans are French" by making them either "Scandinavian" or "Normans", depending on the counterarguments issued.
 
As if it was a quantifiable value, rather than qualitative. Please, at least frame your questions in a sensible form. For instance, "What was the nature of French influence in Norman culture? How does it contrast with Scandinavian influences, if there even were any?"
That's your erroneous interpretation. If ask someone "how much German you are" he won't give me "I'm 28.5% German" (quantitative) but giving me an image of his "Germanity" by showing me how he belongs to that cultural space (qualitative) (though some would attempt to show their genealogy). I've never encountered a "quantifiable" identity, so really I don't understand what are you talking about. However, one can talk about stronger and weaker influences, about predominance or about insignificance if there's such a case.
 
I can't answer a nonsensical question.
You weren't able to answer many questions and covered the unconvenient issues with rhetoric and avoidance.

I think we're wasting time here and I have a material to prepare (as I earlier promised).
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 20-Jul-2006 at 05:44
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 06:09
Originally posted by Chilbudios

you emphasized a "mostly Scandinavian" nature of the Normans.


Your quote is completely out of context. That was in a hereditary, not cultural sense.


I disagree with your petty techniques of choosing convenient sentences out of paragraphs to distort this discussion to a cheap "I won".


Pot, kettle, black.

But not mocking my intelligence by switching from one point of view to another and then pointing the fingerat me.


I haven't changed my position, I have merely clarified it and attempted to clear up apparent failure to make myself understood. It's your perception of my position that's changed; that was the entire intention. Same as your attempt to reconcile your statement re "imposing" to "saving".

Why do your statements need to be so ... colourful? In just two posts you've frantically attempted to variously characterize myself and/or my statements as anachronistic, unimaginative, a spammer, incapable, petty, rigid, irrelevant, confused, pitiful, semantical, mocking, a "nit picker", accusatory, inarticulate, etc etc, repetitively in many cases. Don't you think, that given such a display of invective without apparent provocation (or even with some minor instance, given the appalling frequency with which you've relied on it), perhaps it's more than a little ... bizarre ... at this point for you to accuse me of "mockery" and "pointing the finger" as well? It's times like this that I think about what Jung said regarding what we dislike in others.

It was really rather surprising and mystifying for me when you began that, during the course of your post that begins with "I see ...".

You said "yep" to "Normans imitated" not to "Normans adopted". I was making the difference between "pretending to be" and "becoming".


Isn't the difference entirely subjective? I think, throughout my posts, I've been pretty clear that the Normans had wholeheartedly adopted the trappings of continental culture. I consider that culture is not an inherent thing, we are members of a culture because we choose to act like it, therefore, I wasn't paying alot of attention to the difference between "pretending" and "being". There was no need for vituperation, a simple clarification would have sufficed. Language is an imperfect tool at the best of times, it is unproductive to lash out in anger and *cough* point fingers when it fails.

Originally posted by Edgewaters, earlier


The Normans were mostly Scandinavians,

however, the Normans were more likely Norwegian.


You state that I "choose convenient sentences out of a paragraph", and then yourself take a few snippets entirely out of the context in which they were made. I had stated that the Norman aristocracy was of principally Scandinavian heritage, not that they were principally Scandinavian in culture. To which you've been making all kinds argumentation about how much French culture they had adopted, something I don't dispute in the first place, and I get the distinct feeling you're attempting to portray my argument as if I'm claiming they were running about in longships, fighting with axe-wielding berserkers. Perhaps you aren't trying to give that impression but it comes across that way.
    
I'd suggest it's necessary to establish points of agreement on which to form premises, rather than this consistent attack on things I don't disagree with in any case.

Simple question: did the French conquer England, or did the Normans conquer England? If the latter, were the Normans just "French", or were they unique enough to be considered a distinct group called the Normans?


The problem is you never conceded on anything, so the only thing I see is an apparently groundless opposition to "Normans are French" by making them either "Scandinavian" or "Normans", depending on the counterarguments issued.


The Normans are Normans, that was my statement. Is there a problem with that statement that you can point out, besides your characterizations? I haven't conceded on anything, true enough, neither of us have. On the other hand, I haven't denied that the Normans were part of the French fabric and had adopted the French culture. The Normans were French, in that sense - a sense that doesn't rule out their differences. They were not merely or exclusively French, just like a 2nd + generation Italian American isn't necessarily merely or exclusively American (and before you say it - I fail to see why analogy used for simple illustration and familiar example must be contemporary in every case - anachronistic analogy may be imperfect, but it can still be useful for illustration)

I merely point out that they were not French in the same sense that the Angevins were, brought a Scandinavian mindset to their way of practicing French culture, possessed Scandinavian heritage, were distinct in many ways, and retained some political connections with Scandinavian groups (eg King Olaf of Norway). That's my position, hopefully clarified. Is there any of it you doubt or would like to discuss? Be specific and that way we can dispense with arguing over premises we both hold already.

Edited by edgewaters - 20-Jul-2006 at 09:25
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 06:23
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

Coming from one who claims the viking fielded no armies, but only small raiding bands; it is certain that there aremany facts at dispute here.


     

My quote:

If Vikings got into a large scale engagement, something had gone wrong for them. Their success was in mobility; many small groups conducting lightning raids before anyone could respond.

That pretty much speaks for itself. It says their success lay in small, mobile groups; it doesn't rule out other things.

I also mentioned:

They never assembled large enough forces for any single defeat to be decisive.

Large enough. Not that they never assembled large forces at all.


Edited by edgewaters - 20-Jul-2006 at 06:50
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 09:44
Originally posted by Chilbudios

 
Please point out the date in history when the Bretons and the Franks and the Goths became French.
Bretons are French? I suppose the Welsh are English?
 
The concept of 'Frenchness' took even longer to emerge than the concept of 'Englishness'.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 09:46

Based on Lucien Musset - Les Invasions. Le second assaut ...


The creation of Normandy it starts with the agreements between Rollon and Charles the Simple (a diploma from 918 testifies that the king conceded to Rollon pro tutela regni which suggests rather a military investment than a feudal one). The agreements were transformed to vassalage only a generation later, around 940. Though Rollon became part of the Frankish military system, only William "Longsword", his son and successor, made the decissive integration step by giving his Carolingian wife, Liegeard of Vermandois, the territories along the Seine and along the Evreux-Chartres route, thus opening his domain to post-Carolingian influences.
The dukes of Rouen inherited the land of the king and of the Frankish counts, also their ecclesiastical (naming bishops, the custody of the abbeys) and financial rights. The system of rural properties functions in a Carolingian tradition (The author argues that the crushing preponderence of the Frankish forms were justified because they were more advantageous to aristocracy than the Northern customs).

The Scandinavian traits are scarce. Most were eliminated when Normandy took a decissive feudal and Christian orientation. However, there were significant influences in fishing, sailing, shipbuilding, also duke's rights on some categories of shipwrecks. In the rural environment is known only a single property title of Scandinavian influence (the mansloth) and a series of toponyms which illustrate the colonization of the Scandinavians over the Frankish villas. A part of the aristocracy practiced during the 10th century a Northern matrimonial right but limited by the Church. Some of the Duke's laws against criminals bear also a Scandinavian mark (the outlawing - ullac), however even here, the framework is borrowed from the Frankish law. The older Frankish structures (centaines, pagi) revived everywhere (almost everywhere, as unlike in Upper Normandy - closer to the centers of the post-Carolingian authority -, the dukes of Rouen had certain problems in affirming their authority over the Lower Normandy - which escaped also the authority of the last Carolingians).
Unlike in England - where the language is attested by epigraphy in the north-west until the beginning of 12th century - in Normandy there's no evidence that the Scandinavian languages were spoken after 940 (an intresting episode is that around 950, the not-yet-duke Richard I had to travel to Bayeux to learn Danish, unable to do so at Rouen; also nothing points out that it was ever a written language: leaving aside the predilection for exotism, the first Norman works were composed in Latin.), but can be inferred that some groups used it until the 11th century. Especially the fishermen, the sailors, as a some French words have a northern origin: babord, tribord, quille, etrave, havre, marsouin. Other words remained only dialectal like the sea-related "grune" = seabed, the land-related "delle" = piece of land or "londe" = a bunch of trees, also some obsolete judicial terms: "gaives" - goods with no master. Otherwise, the vocabulary was little altered.
In art, their influence in Normandy was insignificant (unlike in England). The artistic revival from 11th century is either continuing a Carolingian tradition or presents spontaneous developments (some similarities between Normandy and Scandinavia are due to a reverse influence, the Romanesque art of Normandy influenced the Christian art from the north, especially in Norway and western Denmark).

As for the ethnicity of the colonists, according to their onomastics, it seems the majority was Danish and a large part of them inhabited for a while the north-east of England from where they brought new/altered anthroponyms, but also agricultural terms, especially betwen Bayeux and Orne, and less in the north of Cotentin. Other colonists, after inhabitting a while in Ireland and Scotaland, came in Normandy wearing names like Murdac or Donecan. These colonists have a Norwegian origin and estabilished mostly in Cotentin. The women were in a severe minority (the analysis set having 3 such names comparing to around 80 male names), so the newcomers must'd married local women since their first generations.
The duke's family seems Norwegian, though sources credit Rollon both as Danish and as Norwegian (but the sources of that time hardly made the difference). Anyway, it was not unusual for a Norwegian chief to rule over a Danish army (the Danish city of York had its Norwegian kings). An interesting aspect that also supports the Norwegian origin of Rollon is a certain duality (Norse/Frankish) of their names encountered during the 10th century: Rollon was Hrolfr and Robert, his daughter was Gerloc/Geirlaug and Adelis, the wife of Richard I was Gunnor/Gunvor and Albereda. 
As for the geographical distribution, two regions knew larger colonizations (and consequently influences): the north of Contentin and the western Pays de Caux. Bayeux, Roumois between Seine and Risle, Avranchin, Bocage Virois were less affected and the fields of Eure and the lands of Bray were almost untouched. Auge and the valley of Seine were scarcely colonized (a note though, not all the settlements marked by Scandinavian toponymy were colonized in that age. In some cases there are Scandinavian lords whose names were integrated in the place's name: Mondeville = Amundi villa, Roumare = Rolmara. In other cases there are dialectal borrowings which generated toponyms years after the periods of colonization like the aforementioned "londe").

Two social classes was altered: the aristocracy and the sea-shore populations. Nowhere the Scandinavians behave like a closed group. From the beginning of 11th century the aristocracy was extremely composite: besides Danes and Norwegians included Franks, Bretons and even Germans. The indigenous elements altered it greatly thus no significant differences were between the conquerors and the conquered at the beginning of 11th century.
Several other Viking bands came later to Normandy (the so-called second wave). The dukes of Normandy used them for their own interest: against Louis IV in 945 or against Eudes of Chartres in 1013 (an action already mentioned in this thread). However, the Vikings unable to integrate in the new structures were exiled. These ones, still bearers of the Viking culture, had a considerable role wherever they fought, in Spain or Italy. They are among the founders of Norman Italy.
Normandy also had a direct gain from some Viking loots which were directed to Rouen. However, the dukes of Normandy didn't want the Danes to have full control on England and they supported the anti-Danish movement while Ethelred II and a handful of followers were exiled at Rouen. It seems that this is the true origin of the action taken in 1066 which were not especially against the English, but against the Anglo-Danish aristocracy represented by Harold.

One last point is their double-faced identity. Snorri Sturlusson, writing in the 13th century, calls the old dukes of Rouen "Rudhu jarlar" (the jarls of Rouen) while Richer, hating Normans, calls Richard I "comes piratarum" (so like I thought, it was an insult. However I think it's related to Richard I's ancestry and the fact that his "cousins" were still haunting the seas).
But from the "official" point of view they were French/Frankish: the diplomas call them comites Rothomagenses (a title for the counts of Rouen, according to the Carolingian tradition) or marchiones (as marquises, their duty was to protect Seine from pirates - i.e. Vikings!).
As you can see the title listed here are almost perfect opposites. Though Musset doesn't suggests it, it seems to me that their Northern titles are relevant only as mythical reflections, it's about one late Northern account (which barely translates their Frankish title by jarl while we know how were they integrated in the post-Carolingian system) and one venomous remark reflecting a personal aversion.



Edited by Chilbudios - 20-Jul-2006 at 09:56
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 11:00

Originally posted by Edgewaters

Your quote is completely out of context. That was in a hereditary, not cultural sense.
Really?
Let me read your "context":
Originally posted by Edgewaters, in context


The Normans were mostly Scandinavians, who had adopted French customs - at least, the ones who went to England. The population of Normandy itself may well have been French. But the aristocracy that ruled it wasn't.

You're opposing the Normans (Scandinavian aristocracy with French customs) with a French non-aristocratic population in Normandy. Not taking in account that you earlier said that there's no French ethnicity before 19th century, I wonder what do you mean by these French in Normandy? Hereditary French (let's say Frankish?)? I couldn't conceive such an option, so for me the context says "French" and "Scandinavian" as original cultural environments. Otherwise you couldn't oppose "Scandinavian" with "French" (especially in Normandy).

I haven't changed my position, I have merely clarified it and attempted to clear up apparent failure to make myself understood. It's your perception of my position that's changed; that was the entire intention. Same as your attempt to reconcile your statement re "imposing" to "saving".
You're not following the discussion. The paragraph you quoted and answered to was refering strictly to your way of selective quoting and apparently misunderstanding of the role of Theodoric in the public education in Italy. So what position haven't you changed and clarified? That I attempted to reconcile "impose" with "save"? Let me sketch the flow, maybe will get clearer:
Me: Theodoric [...] tried to impose a public Roman school
You: I'm not sure how much he "imposed" anything.
Me: He certainly gave an impulse (to) public education when he paid wages to the teachers from the schools of Rome.

Of course, because I'm writing sometimes more than a one-liner, I also added something about his intentions: "It's not like Theodoric's measures saved it, but he tried to do something to save it."
However you missed the detail on his actions (the so call "imposing", detailed by an example) and equivocated them with his intentions ("he tried to save"). I whined about it because I felt it as a shallowness in approach and attempt to minimize the points I made.

Why do your statements need to be so ... colourful? In just two posts you've frantically attempted to variously characterize myself and/or my statements as anachronistic, unimaginative, a spammer, incapable, petty, rigid, irrelevant, confused, pitiful, semantical, mocking, a "nit picker", accusatory, inarticulate, etc etc, repetitively in many cases. Don't you think, that given such a display of invective without apparent provocation (or even with some minor instance, given the appalling frequency with which you've relied on it), perhaps it's more than a little ... bizarre ... at this point for you to accuse me of "mockery" and "pointing the finger" as well? It's times like this that I think about what Jung said regarding what we dislike in others.

As obviously you're not talking about Normans, what can I do about deviations like this one? a) Ignore them b) Identify (name) them as such and stop them.
For instance, I'd characterise this action as basically an exageration. But unfortunately it's more than that. Some epithets are decontextualized, distorted or not to be found (I see no "incapable" just "unable to point out", which came after "please point out"), even the frame you presented has the same fate, as almost none addresses your person but your actions and ideas and unlike you're stating most of the cases are in fact only one occurence. Also, you're using yourself such characterisations when the opponent bothers you in some way - only from the last pages of this thread (and you started before I even contributed in some way here): "You clearly have a deep misunderstanding", "spurious", "You haven't been following" (if I'd were to follow your way I could victimize myself by infering from here something about my inability to follow a discussion Tongue), "I can't answer a nonsensical question. " and of course the latest additions: "colourful", "frantically" etc.
Have in mind that all what I exposed here also can be characterised through epithets (names). I don't really want to bring them on, but you're not really helping in creating a discussion focused on arguments. Even now, I'm not certain about the points you attempted to make when you answered to me.

Isn't the difference entirely subjective? I think, throughout my posts, I've been pretty clear that the Normans had wholeheartedly adopted the trappings of continental culture. I consider that culture is not an inherent thing, we are members of a culture because we choose to act like it, therefore, I wasn't paying alot of attention to the difference between "pretending" and "being". There was no need for vituperation, a simple clarification would have sufficed. Language is an imperfect tool at the best of times, it is unproductive to lash out in anger and *cough* point fingers when it fails.
On one hand, I created the semantic difference myself but you apparently paid no attention to it.
Originally posted by Chilbudios, earlier

Coming back to Normans, were they just imitating the continental society?
Reading my last message I'd say they really integrated into this society.

You picked up my first sentence and said "yep". Perhaps you haven't noticed the "just" vs "really", "imitating" vs "integrated".
On the other hand, it was started from the analogy with the Ostrogoths, therefore my semantic opposition was somehow reflecting the factual differences between the two examples.

You state that I "choose convenient sentences out of a paragraph", and then yourself take a few snippets entirely out of the context in which they were made. I had stated that the Norman aristocracy was of principally Scandinavian heritage, not that they were principally Scandinavian in culture. To which you've been making all kinds argumentation about how much French culture they had adopted, something I don't dispute in the first place, and I get the distinct feeling you're attempting to portray my argument as if I'm claiming they were running about in longships, fighting with axe-wielding berserkers. Perhaps you aren't trying to give that impression but it comes across that way.
I already addressed that. The context also suggests a cultural heritage (not only biological), due to the similarities and oppositions you used to shape it. If it's my misunderstanding please clarify your earlier points, but not accuse me of decontextualizing. I'm really reading when I quote Wink

Simple question: did the French conquer England, or did the Normans conquer England? If the latter, were the Normans just "French", or were they unique enough to be considered a distinct group called the Normans?
Simple answers then: they were Normans but they were French also and in a way, also Scandinavians. How much French and how much Scandinavian I already asked but I think I also already answered.

I hope to settle soon on all these things because as you suggest, it may happen that many of the issues we argue on are the same facts in a slightly different perception.


Edited by Chilbudios - 20-Jul-2006 at 11:28
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  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 12:25
I really can't figure it out how the Francilians managed to beat the Angevins. If I was born in those days, I would have definitely been part of the Angevins.


I can give you some stuffs from the book, the Angevin Empire by John Gillingham, page 95 and forward "the causes of defeat".

The first and most obvious thing is John I was never at the place he was needed. Even the fights in Poitou and Gascony, where John I was supposed to attack while Otton IV attacked on the other flank, was done by Savari de Moleon and Elie de Malmort.

Modern scholars, based on financial records of those times, seem to believe Philip II was indeed richer than John I despite the fact John I had a much bigger land. Yet it is impossible to calculate the exact wealth of both sides which is why those are constantly debated.

Problems for the King of France was a lot of money was "lost through the net" which makes it hard to quantify. It was even worse for the Plantagenet, records for the Plantagenet are hopelessly incomplete.

It seems, for example in 1202-1203, that Philip II's treasure recorded an entry of 197,000 Livres Parasis yet those include money Philip II saved from previous years for further uses so are not exactly an annual income.

The same year was disastrous for John I in term of incomes, usualy England and Normandy taxation alone were the same than the one the King of France could gather, yet this specific year was really bad for John with about 38% to 45% only of the usual incomes. England usualy gathered 106,000 Livres  Anvegins  and Normandy 98,000. Ireland much poorer gathered usualy only 6,000 l.a. There are 0 records for Anjou and Aquitaine, although the policy of those places can tell the incomes they generated for John I was pitifully low, which is ironical when they were probably the wealthiest area of its sovereign. It is presumed John I received only 3,000 l.a. from those places.

It was commonly assumed Richard I was wealthier than Philip II, although this is put in question that Richard I taxed his subjects to death? The Norman Exchegers Rolls of 1195 and 1198 reveal a duchy squeezed to its limit and left Richard I high and dry ruler of exhausted lands. It seems Richard I clearly outspent Philip II.

Grumbling comments by Roger of Howden and William of Newburgh show that in the end of Richard I's reign many people in England were financialy opressed.

According to Ralph of Coggeshall: "no age can remember, no history can record any preceding king who extracted so much money from his kingdom as that king amassed in the five years after he returned from captivity".

John I's first years of reign gathered even more money per years that Richard I's last years. In modern money Richard I could gather 24,000 a year and John I $27,000 (inflation went there so it actually is the same).

So, in term of incomes and at the early stages of the conflict, John I gathered more money than Philip II but at a high cost. Yet, Philip II could gather more of his money in the threatre in Normandy than John I did, which is were it mattered (Normandy taken, John I's land was cut), to put it in another way, Philip II was able to manage his money better than John I did.

John I then was unable to gather his money at the right place, yet it's always more or so been the case. The Angevin Empire was a loose empire with many different laws within it's feudal states. Held through vassality of the king of France, it was impossible to apply big reforms in several terroritories, the Angevin Empire was more a cumbersome political structure administratively incoherent. Richard I could avoid the problem with good political movement but John I managed to turn the most powerful nobles of Poitou and Anjou against him.

On Anjou (the greater Anjoy) itself, the only place John I directly ruled without contest was Le Mans, others were held through vassalities with barons and others. This was an explanation to the bad incomes John I would suddenly experience.

The real masters of Poitou were the Lusignans, although nominally ruled by the Plantagenets. The Lusignans held directly nothing less than 13 "castellanies" when John I had 12 (those are including the ones held by his wife) while those including Poitiers itself and La Rochelle.


In 1203, the strongholds of Beaufort and Chateauneuf sur Sarthe were simply handed down to Philip II by its defenders.

In Gascony, John I was reduced to a defense position, Richard I there could control the area with a succesful alliance with Sancho of Navarre but at this point the King of Navarre is stuck in a war with Castile. Richard I also had an alliance with Toulouse which John I failed to renew and Toulouse went on the Capetian side.

On the ground of alliances, Philip II won a powerful ally with Alfonso VIII of Castile. John I ressources in the south were then null.

Although John I signed an alliance with Otton IV, Otton didn't interfere until the summer of 1203 as Otton was stuck in a strugle with the Prince of Swabia. And by then, it was too late. The only serious ally John I could have had was the Count of Flanders, but he was gone to the crusades and the other former ally Renaud of Boulogne joined the Capetian side too....

With ennemies all around, John I could only spread his troops all around when Philip II could attack from any front he wanted.

Normandy was lost swiftly, with the help of Renaud of Boulogne which showed a brillant commander, Philip II could gather a stronger force there.

Politicaly, economicaly, and diplomaticaly, Philip II totaly outperformed John I.


Followed after the loss of Normandy and Anjou, the Battle of Bouvines where Otton IV finally participated and Renaud of Boulogne fought the king of France.

At that point, the rest is only a succession of small victories reducing the sovereign of John I and  the laters like that capture of La Rochelle, the Battles of Saintes and Taillebourg and the War of Saint Sardos until the 100 years war.
Vae victis!
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  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 12:34
Ho, and the Normans were/are Frenchmen.
Vae victis!
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 07:19
Bretons are French? I suppose the Welsh are English?
  
I've missed that one and forgot also about my little conversation with Quetzalcoatl. You're both right about the Bretons - I've overestimated the force of the Galo-Romans (it seems that here it happened as in England, the Romanic speakers were isolated in "islands" and were assimilated) and the intregration of Bretania in post-Carolingian structures and culture, while minimized the vigour of the Celtic invaders.


Edited by Chilbudios - 21-Jul-2006 at 07:21
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