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Greece and Turkey genetic map( today)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greece and Turkey genetic map( today)
    Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 18:53

those scientist maintain that all people actually are afrikans

this is not science , this is science-fiction. 



Edited by Tatar44
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Posts: 175 		  Quote Ionian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 07:12
yes ,u right for the eastern part of turkey...  the  west part is more similar  with greek genes...
Originally posted by Ardashir

Originally posted by Ionian

 i  give this maps to show  that greeks and turkish populations r very similar in genetic tests(DNA)... just look at the colors and the first post of this topic..
Originally posted by Abakan

Can you explain the map?

Turks are more close to Iranians and other Middle Eastern peoples than to Greeks.Actually Iranians,Turks,Kurds,Ossetians (=exotic Iranics),Lebanese and to some extent Greeks are related together.

From the same research:

As you can see,Greeks are really a people genetically fall between Middle easterns and Europeans! Even the Turkmens and Armenians have more European genes than Greeks.

source:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/18/10244

This part is good for bothering Turkish Ultra-Nationalists:

"

The Turkish and Azeri populations are atypical among Altaic speakers (Table 1) in having low frequencies of M130, M48, M45, and M17 haplotypes. Rather, these two Turkic-speaking groups seem to be closer to populations from the Middle East and Caucasus, characterized by high frequencies of M96- and/or M89-related haplotypes. This finding is consistent with a model in which the Turkic languages, originating in the Altai-Sayan region of Central Asia and northwestern Mongolia (31), were imposed on the Caucasian and Anatolian peoples with relatively little genetic admixture---another possible example of elite dominance-driven linguistic replacement. "

Sorry for Bozkurtlar!

PS:

1-the blue color (M9) indicate the Mongoloid genes.As you can see,Iranians and Armenians have a bit Mongolid genes because of Altaic (Turk-Mongolian) invasions (it is surprising that we have less Mongolid genes than Armenians.).But Russians have a much more Mongolid gene than us! Even more than Turkic Turkmens! who is responsible? Batu khan?! Golden Horde? or Finno-Ugrians?! only god know!

2-the yellow color (M89) have originated in Middle East and indicate Neolothic farmer's ancestry.

3-M17 indicate Indo-European ancestry.(if we accept the theory that put PIEs in Ukrainian plains!)

4-M173 is an indicator of Upper-Palaothic ancestry and originated in Iberian peninsula
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 15:46

Turkey isnt a federation, we dont divide Turkey into parts. If you divide Turkey from the center, you would also realize that the region of Konya and central Anatolia will be in the western part, the region where you said Turanoid population is denser.

If you read my last post about the very wrong, even funny points in the map, you will see it is nonsense.

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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 16:47

What is yap, and red and green?

I think these things are inaccurate, for them to be accurate there has to be a sample, taken at random from different populations within each country.
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Posts: 694 		  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 21:06
 DNA diversity and population admixture in Anatolia, Turkey.

Filed: 03/07/2002, 19:34:23
Source: Am J Phys Anthropol 2001 Jun;115(2):144-56

Di Benedetto G, Erguven A, Stenico M, Castri L, Bertorelle G, Togan I, Barbujani G.

Dipartimento di Biologia, Universita di Ferrara, I-44100 Ferrara, Italy.

The Turkic language was introduced in Anatolia at the start of this millennium, by nomadic Turkmen groups from Central Asia. Whether that cultural transition also had significant population-genetics consequences is not fully understood. Three nuclear microsatellite loci, the hypervariable region I of the mitochondrial genome, six microsatellite loci of the Y chromosome, and one Alu insertion (YAP) were amplified and typed in 118 individuals from four populations of Anatolia. For each locus, the number of chromosomes considered varied between 51-200. Genetic variation was large within samples, and much less so between them. The contribution of Central Asian genes to the current Anatolian gene pool was quantified using three different methods, considering for comparison populations of Mediterranean Europe, and Turkic-speaking populations of Central Asia. The most reliable estimates suggest roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and Y-chromosome loci. That (admittedly approximate) figure is compatible both with a substantial immigration accompanying the arrival of the Turkmen armies (which is not historically documented), and with continuous gene flow from Asia into Anatolia, at a rate of 1% for 40 generations. Because a military invasion is expected to more deeply affect the male gene pool, similar estimates of admixture for female- and male-transmitted traits are easier to reconcile with continuous migratory contacts between Anatolia and its Asian neighbors, perhaps facilitated by the disappearance of a linguistic barrier between them. Copyright 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

PMID: 11385601 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=P ubMed&list_uids=11385601&dopt=Abstract
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Posts: 131 		  Quote perdon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 06:37

Originally posted by baracuda

The maps look terribly wrong !!!

totaly agree !!

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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 07:06
Originally posted by perdon

Originally posted by baracuda

The maps look terribly wrong !!!


totaly agree !!



I don't. As for the actual stats, they are probably correct, the universities behind this study wouldn't allow anything else. The problem is that some of you are reading waaay too much in these maps - it's just a chart over a few traces of DNA.



I think these things are inaccurate, for them to be accurate there has to be a sample, taken at random from different populations within each country.


Did you see anything stating otherwise? It would be nice to have a link to the study seeing how it was made, instead of just the maps though.


If you read my last post about the very wrong, even funny points in the map, you will see it is nonsense.

Ok:

Originally posted by Oguzoglu


You say the blue genes are Mongoloid genes. How the hell can the Finlandians or a south Indianbe half Mongoloid?Or how can the Mongols be less Mongoloid than Kazakhs?If you are that ignorant to take such maps seriously, it is time for you to go to the nearest lab and apoligize...



The Sami (picture) have those genes, the Finns aren't even on the map. Secondly, there are no "Mongoloid gene", but genes very distinctive to that people. Thirdly, only the name "mongoloid" are derived from the Mongols, while the classification isn't. You might notice that the group with the by far largest number of that lineage is the Chinese.

This map is rediculous, not only for Turks, but for all nations. According to this map, a Russian is more mongoloid than a Kazan Tatar. Czechs are more middle eastern/north africanthan Spanish. AndTurkmens are more European than Czechs...



That is not ridiculous at all. M9 presence is about equal in Russian, Tatar and even Mongol graphs as well. The IE trace is not the red, but the light blue, which is much more present in the Czech graph than the Turkmen.


It shows Turkmens, Czechs and Brits in the same group while an Ukrainian, a Tajik and a Mongoloid Kyrgiz are in another common genetical group. Well done Ardashir, good sense of humour...


It certainly doesn't. It shows the presence of one genetical lineage is strong in those group, not some kind of direct descendance (the rest of the compositions is way different).

Why would I believe you instead of Stanford people?

Edited by Styrbiorn
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 10:51
Originally posted by Ionian

Racial compositionin greece and turkey and human racial classification.

Greece=40% east mediterraneans(aegean,present among minoans,aheans, 25%dinaricized mediterraneans( also present among ancient hellenes),20% alpine (most common in epirus dorians ),10% dinaric (dorians were partly dinarics),5 % nordish( partly assimilated remnant, or genetic recombinations from solution; most common in the N,germanic invasion impact ) = 40% med./  25% D.M/  20% UP/ 10% dinarik/ 5% N.

 

Turkey= 35% dinaricized mediterraneans( Greek colonist). 20% mediterraneans( aegean coast,greek colonist),25% irano afghans (eastern turkey, kurds),20% turanids (original semi oriental turkics, inhabits continental parts of anatolia one of them being region around konya) =35% D.M/ 25% I.A / 20% med. /20% Turanids



That's not any genetic mapping, it's just an arbitrary phenotypic study. Anyhow, I'm sure that the genotypes at both sides of the Aegean are almost the same but that is something that probably comes from times prior to when Greeks were Greeks.

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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 11:07
On the other maps:

and

I must recall that these are just Y-chromosome lineages: pure father-son-father-son-father-son... lineages - if there's a daughter or mother in any of the steps it's not represented. They represent only a tiny part of each one's genome, though, assuming that statistical randomness has done well its job, then it may be more significant. In any case it requires too much faith in self-correcting randomness and also, maybe more important, it is distorted by male-only or male-mostly migrations. So in the best case, you should get all those circles make them semicircles and live the other half in blank. In the worst case they represent only a 1% of he total genome going back to only 2000 years ago and 0.1% going back to 20,000 years ago, more adequate considering the large groups represented in those maps.



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 12:08

I'm sure that the genotypes at both sides of the Aegean are almost the same but that is something that probably comes from times prior to when Greeks were Greeks.

Do they teach these at school to you? In fact Turks are one of us? The people of our bibleland?
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Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 17:15

Originally posted by Maju



That's not any genetic mapping, it's just an arbitrary phenotypic study. Anyhow, I'm sure that the genotypes at both sides of the Aegean are almost the same but that is something that probably comes from times prior to when Greeks were Greeks.

What do you mean?
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Posts: 694 		  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 21:10


Lol, this is a good joke... According to this Im purely Alpine, which is common among Epirotes. Which I am not, and neither is the majority of southern Albanians, infact only a small minority in Sarande or Korca are purely Alpines, of which my father is one. Even in Himara they show signs of Alpinization, meaning they were originally dinarids... This map is a joke.... The amount of Alpines in Albania is at best 5% of the nation.



Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 23:44
Originally posted by dorian

Originally posted by Maju



That's not any genetic mapping, it's just an arbitrary phenotypic study. Anyhow, I'm sure that the genotypes at both sides of the Aegean are almost the same but that is something that probably comes from times prior to when Greeks were Greeks.

What do you mean?



That the list and map posted at the start of this topic are a "racial" phenotipic study (phenotype is your biological appearence in contrast to genotype which is your biological code). All those "racial" types as "Alpine", "Nordic", "Mediterranean", "Dinaric", etc. are based mostly skull measurements and simmilar external traits. Maybe it was the best that existed before genetics evolved but nowadays is completely outdated. In any case it is not a genetic map as the topic starter suggested but a classical "racial" map built up from (contested) phenotypic studies, nothing else.

I also mean that the genetics in both sides of the Aegean is only gradually different. After all the Anatolian and Greek peninsulas, as well as the Eastern Mediterranean islands, have shared much of history and even prehistory with people going forth and back between both regions. That's not surprising.

The following genetics maps of Europe and West Asia are the result of another type of approach: to map a wide comprehensive sample of many genetic markers (about 100 or more), so the distortion that happens when you only use one marker like with Rh or AB0 blood types or when you use gender-lineage haplotypes (Y-chromosome and Mithocodrial DNA) is eliminated. This work was realized by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza and other associates. They found that European genome shows 5 better defined Principal Components (PCs) and that these can arguably mark some migrational trends like the one that happened in the Neolithic era (PC1 and PC4) or the succesive migrations of steppary peoples, most significatively that of Indo Europeans (PC3 and probably also PC2). The fifth component (PC5), most strongly associated with Basques, Gascons and Iberians, probably shows an aborigin component, associated with Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. Of course the meaning of these 5 components is arguable but their existence seems very solid so far.

The maps are:


PC1: Strongest in Mesopotamia, it probably expanded with Neolithic migrations.


PC2: Strongest in Lappland and Northern Russia it must be "somehow" associated with steppary migrations of all sort.


PC3: Strongest in the Don basin, it's typically associated with IE migrations.


PC4: Strongest in Greece and nearby regions, I think it also expanded with Neolithic migrations, which have in Thessly their most clear origin.


PC5: Strongest in the Basque Country and Gascony. It's thought to be the aboriginal remnant.

You can see that the shadings in all 5 maps for the Aegean area are pretty simmilar, only with some change in the Eastern regions of Turkey.


Edited by Maju

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Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO



Lol, this is a good joke... According to this Im purely Alpine, which is common among Epirotes. Which I am not, and neither is the majority of southern Albanians, infact only a small minority in Sarande or Korca are purely Alpines, of which my father is one. Even in Himara they show signs of Alpinization, meaning they were originally dinarids... This map is a joke.... The amount of Alpines in Albania is at best 5% of the nation.


Maybe you misread the map. Do you have a better picture? Using "racial distribution" as a caption makes me feel eerie about it - what is it and when is it from?

Edited by Styrbiorn
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Posts: 722 		  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 05:37
Like many such 'bla' about genetics and race's almost 99% of all material is;

- biased for some propaganda intentionaly or non-intentionaly
- the probability of such comparison is too thin, to make it a credible scientific paper (unless there is of course propaganda involved ), this poor probability is due to errors from; paths taken, not having any comparison for origins of some specimen race, and/or clean genetic material of specimen race for today..

So in the end its pretty puzzling why would people even go to some extent to discuss such a subject, when almost absolutely nothing credible can be proven from it, part sooth some nationalistic and propagandic ego's of some people.   

p.s. The thing posted is probably from some british source, reminds me of some map from a book I read.

Edited by baracuda
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Originally posted by Ardashir

This part is good for bothering Turkish Ultra-Nationalists:

"

The Turkish and Azeri populations are atypical among Altaic speakers (Table 1) in having low frequencies of M130, M48, M45, and M17 haplotypes. Rather, these two Turkic-speaking groups seem to be closer to populations from the Middle East and Caucasus, characterized by high frequencies of M96- and/or M89-related haplotypes. This finding is consistent with a model in which the Turkic languages, originating in the Altai-Sayan region of Central Asia and northwestern Mongolia (31), were imposed on the Caucasian and Anatolian peoples with relatively little genetic admixture---another possible example of elite dominance-driven linguistic replacement. "

Sorry for Bozkurtlar!

This ridiculous. Just look at the map.

It is said that:

"The Turkish and Azeri populations are atypical among Altaic speakers (Table 1) in having low frequencies of M130, M48, M45, and M17 haplotypes. "

But who are the Altaic speakers in the map?

1) Turkish

2) Kazan Tatar

3) Uzbek

4) Kyrgyz

5) Uighurs

6) Kazaks

7) Mongols

8) Tuvinians

Turks who has been less influenced by Gengis invasion have almost none Mongolian dominated M130 lineage. Look at Kazan Tatar, Turkish and Turkmen. M 130 is composing very small percentage of Kyrgyzs, Uzbeks, Tuvinians and Uighurs.

M45 is almost none among Altaic speakers but it is claimed as a properties of Altaic speakers.... Hard to understand...

The main difference between Turks of Anatolia is in the YAP lineage. Although there is a %15 of YAP in Anatolian Turks there is not such thing in others.

Originally posted by Ardashir

3-M17 indicate Indo-European ancestry.(if we accept the theory that put PIEs in Ukrainian plains!)

No!! look at Kyrgyz Turks.....

Originally posted by Ardashir

1-the blue color (M9) indicate the Mongoloid genes.As you can see,Iranians and Armenians have a bit Mongolid genes because of Altaic (Turk-Mongolian) invasions (it is surprising that we have less Mongolid genes than Armenians.)

No M9 is related with southern Asia not Mongoloids. Mongols are related with M130 as it can be seen VERY EASYLY from the map.....

Originally posted by Ardashir

4-M173 is an indicator of Upper-Palaothic ancestry and originated in Iberian peninsula.

It is strange to me that Turkmens have such a big percentage of M173.......

 

[/QUOTE]

Some Greek forumers are linking nordic elements in Greece with German invasions....... How long did it take? But what about Turkish invasion? Before Ottomans; Huns, Bulgars, Avars, Pechenegs, Uzs, Cumans. And the last time Turks have stayed in Greece during 400 years.......

Can you imagine the Turkish effect if there is a German effect in Greece? Forget about the imaginary theories claiming that Turks were Mongols. Just look at Uighurs (the farest Turks), Turkmen, Kazan Tatar, Kyrgyz, Uzbek genes which is shown on the map. Take into account also Genghis invasion.........

No need to say more ......I am sorry for you Ardashir. You have tried to say "something " but everything is very clear for the ones who want to see the facts.....

Just look at the map.

 
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Posts: 164 		  Quote Hak-Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 16:38
i really satisfied about this brilliant genetic search by the genius serbian soldi...sorry scientics, i feel like a real Greek-kurdo Turkish citizen at the moment
i think its not so hard to see about this yahoo/geocitie!!(cool scientic domain name) site's webmasters identity

i think its a cool stuff for curious greek nationalists, if it make them happy... i say;yes we are semi greek!!! and semi kurdish!! and we are not turkic,we are your brothers although we come middle asia in not so far time period

we come middle asia into anatolia(1071 malazgirt war)- and suddenly converted in 400 years into greek and kurd!! (how could it be happened)
we changed into greek or kurd although we ruled greece and kurdistan 400 years in the time period 1500-1900

greeks or kurds must have had a wireless hi-tech genetic  solution with turks at that ages'!!










Edited by Hak-Khan
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 16:52
Who is hosting it is irrelevant. Only who made the study is.
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Posts: 164 		  Quote Hak-Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 16:59
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Who is hosting it is irrelevant. Only who made the study is.


slobodan milosevich himself did that genetic search
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Posts: 694 		  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 18:46
we come middle asia into anatolia(1071 malazgirt war)- and suddenly converted in 400 years into greek and kurd!! (how could it be happened)
we changed into greek or kurd although we ruled greece and kurdistan 400 years in the time period 1500-1900


No Hunnic. What people are saying is that the Greeks and the Kurds became... well.. you. Assimilation to fit the conquerer.
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