Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

History of the Romanians and Vlachs (271-1310)
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 7>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: History of the Romanians and Vlachs (271-1310)
    Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 07:37
OK stop talking about Arvanites in this forum please. We understood everybody's opinion about them.
 
For more information ask them to talk about their origin...
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 07:47

This text is from the official page of the Vlachs in Veria, Greece.

http://www.vlahoi.gr/vlahs.asp

"Veria is a very old town. It is even refered by Thucidides AG1  "and arriving in Veria". Later in the beginning of the Roman domination (146 AD), Veria was the sacred town, the seat of the bishop of the Macedonian public. Its purpose was the worship of the Goddes of Rome and Augustus. Many feasts were held in this town. Many bishops and officers and many people from several regions of Macedonia would meet here. Veria had the right to build a temple of emperors for the practice of their worship.

Not surprisingly, Veria saw the settlement of the Roman rules, finance officers, tax reuters and other Roman officials. Taking for granted that all these were speaking formal Latin, it was unavoidable that this language was spread in Veria and thus from the beginning of the Roman Domination Latin speakers appeared in Veria.

It is proven that the massive inauguration of Vlahs (Armani) in Veria, from their eternal Pindikes birthplaces, took place in the second decade of the 19th century."

 

That's what Greek Vlachs say about their origin...



Edited by dorian - 28-Jun-2006 at 07:49
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Digenis View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 22-Nov-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 694 		  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 10:51
Originally posted by Arbr Z

And Digenis, try to stay calm, you dont have to be agressive.

aggresive?Confused


But what I would like to see is the greek state helping this cultural communities preserve their culture.


How?


It is impressive, but Greece is very hostile towards other cultures (languages, religion, origin etc.).

Do you mean the Greek state in 2006?
For ex, muslims in Thrace are being taught turkish,and have a special percentege plus,to enter universities.

Organisations of Vlachs are spread all over greece,as well as pontian organizations etc.
But 99% of these people would be offended if the Greek state would face them as foreigners.


. At least explain what did you find offensive to yourself or your country.

i was a bit surprized,because i thought u are a moderate member,when u have spoken for "albanians of greece-(arvanites)"
I am not feeling any threat at all by AlbaniaSmile
I also - for not being misunderstood-believe that Arvanites were of Albanian ancestry.
But today they are just Greek.


I think that WE  dont understand YOU, and your passion or agony as you can read all over the forum.


My agony for what?Confused
Back to Top
GuardOfHistory View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 26-Jun-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote GuardOfHistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 06:24
Originally posted by dorian

Not surprisingly, Veria saw the settlement of the Roman rules, finance officers, tax reuters and other Roman officials. Taking for granted that all these were speaking formal Latin, it was unavoidable that this language was spread in Veria and thus from the beginning of the Roman Domination Latin speakers appeared in Veria.


Concerning The extent of the Latin influence in the Balkans:

Ioannis Lydos who lived in the 6th century,and was a contemporary of emperor Justinian, wrote:
The inhabitants of the European provinces of the empire,although they are Greeks/Hellenes,they speak the language of the Italians(the voice of the Italians),and this is mostly done by the state officials.
Vlachs and Arvanites,THE GUARDS of Hellenism
Back to Top
Arbr Z View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 26-May-2006
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 598 		  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 11:42
Originally posted by GuardOfHistory

Originally posted by dorian

Not surprisingly, Veria saw the settlement of the Roman rules, finance officers, tax reuters and other Roman officials. Taking for granted that all these were speaking formal Latin, it was unavoidable that this language was spread in Veria and thus from the beginning of the Roman Domination Latin speakers appeared in Veria.


Concerning The extent of the Latin influence in the Balkans:

Ioannis Lydos who lived in the 6th century,and was a contemporary of emperor Justinian, wrote:
The inhabitants of the European provinces of the empire,although they are Greeks/Hellenes,they speak the language of the Italians(the voice of the Italians),and this is mostly done by the state officials.

 
 
It was mostly spoken by state officials, living in the urban areas. But as far as I know, the vlachs, until a century ago were almost exclusively nomadic shepherds, very distant to what is called urban. I could understand your point if we were talking about some coastal city, where latin might survive, due also to the later venetians, catalans or genoese, but latin surviving in the mountains?This state officials, how come they found themeselves surprisingly surrounded by sheep?
Prej heshtjes...!
Back to Top
Digenis View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 22-Nov-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 694 		  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 15:13
I dont believe that these could be the ancestors of the Vlachs too.
We could take a look at the cities of Greece that were made Roman's colonies as Thessaloniki,Philippoi,Dion,Corinth etc.
The first centuries written documents found are most in latin.
As the time flows,its obvious that Greek is gaining space,until Latin disappears.
This means total assimilations,even of the Roman-Italian colonistsas far as in the 7th century.

The most probable is that Vlahic populations are descendants of balcan mountainous tribes (Illyrian or Thracian /even Epirotan/Macedonian with greek idioms),latinized in language.


Edited by Digenis - 29-Jun-2006 at 15:15
Back to Top
Arbr Z View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 26-May-2006
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 598 		  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 22:00
Originally posted by Digenis


The most probable is that Vlahic populations are descendants of balcan mountainous tribes (Illyrian or Thracian /even Epirotan/Macedonian with greek idioms),latinized in language.
 
And what are modern romanians???Arent they the descendant of balkan tribes, using a latinized language? Probably, the substratum should have been the same, because the languages that came out (Vlach and Romanian)are 95% identic.
Digenis, excuse me if in some moment I gave you a bad impression on my opinion, I am not saying that the vlachs of greece belong to another nation, and that they should claim this or that. I am just saying that their culture is (at least linguistically, but not only) not hellenic, and this culture should be studied, recorded, and preserved. I am against the assimilation (which is actually happening from years). I never meant to claim something over the greek nation, noway. But I guessed you exagerated a bit, when you tried to pass every element of your modern people as a descendant of ancient hellenes, (or pure hellenic). This sounds nationalistic, not scientific...anyway.
Prej heshtjes...!
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 17:39
First of all the greek state is not against the vlachic language.
 
Furthermore, the Vlachs were bilingual...
 
When two populations are latinized in different areas, are they the same?
 
Whatever the questions are, in the culture of Greek Vlachs there isn't any mention of immigration.
 
Btw the Vlachs during the winter moved towards the cities.
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Digenis View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 22-Nov-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 694 		  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 17:52
Originally posted by Arbr Z

Originally posted by Digenis


The most probable is that Vlahic populations are descendants of balcan mountainous tribes (Illyrian or Thracian /even Epirotan/Macedonian with greek idioms),latinized in language.
 
And what are modern romanians???Arent they the descendant of balkan tribes, using a latinized language?


Off course.
But different tribes,which  finally had different history ,and different culture.



 I am just saying that their culture is (at least linguistically, but not only) not hellenic,

Well,the definition of hellenic is somehow comlpex.Smile
The truth is that these people sooner or later adopted self-willingly the Greek national identity.


and this culture should be studied, recorded, and preserved. I am against the assimilation (

agreed 100%Thumbs Up



But I guessed you exagerated a bit, when you tried to pass every element of your modern people as a descendant of ancient hellenes, (or pure hellenic).


When ???? Me ??
I am 1/4 Vlah Smile
and i dont believe that  Vlahs of Greece are 100% genetic descendands of Ancient Greeks.
Is this confession enough ?Smile
Am i still an evil nationalist?
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 20:31
For those who use genetical reasons to prove something regarding Aromuns.  Smile  
 
 
 
 
Record 1 of 1
Title: Alu insertion polymorphisms in the Balkans and the origins of the Aromuns
Source: ANNALS OF HUMAN GENETICS 68: 120-127 Part 2, MAR 2004
Document Type: Article
Language: English
Cited References: 26      Times Cited: 5      Find Related Records Information
Abstract: We have analysed 11 human-specific Alu insertion polymorphisms in the Balkans to elucidate the origins of the Aromuns, a linguistic isolate inhabiting scattered areas in the Balkan Peninsula. Four Aromun samples (two from the Republic of Macedonia, one from Albania, and one from Romania) and five neighbouring populations (Macedonians, Albanians, Romanians, Greeks, and Turks) were analysed by means of genetic distances, principal components and analyses of the molecular variance (AMOVA). Three hypotheses were tested: Aromuns are Romanophonic Greeks; the result of a Romanian southward migration; or local descendants of the Thracians. The analyses show that the Aromuns do not constitute a homogeneous group separated from the rest of the Balkan populations. Grouping by language or geography does not explain the genetic differences observed in the region, suggesting a lack of genetic structure in the area. Aromuns do not seem to be particularly related to Greeks, Romanians, or to other Romance speakers. The Aromuns might have their origin to the south of the Danube river, with extensive gene flow with the neighbouring populations. The present results suggest a common ancestry of all Balkan populations, including Aromuns, with a lack of correlation between genetic differentiation and language or ethnicity, stressing that no major migration barriers have existed in the making of the complex Balkan human puzzle.
KeyWords Plus: HUMAN-POPULATIONS; HUMAN-DIVERSITY; PATTERNS; AFRICA
Addresses: Comas D (reprint author), Univ Pompeu Fabra, Unitat Biol Evolutiva, Doctor Aiguader 80, Barcelona, 08003 Spain
Univ Pompeu Fabra, Unitat Biol Evolutiva, Barcelona, 08003 Spain
Univ Ulm, Dept Anthropol, Ulm, D-89069 Germany
Univ Dusseldorf, Inst Anthropol & Human Genet, Dusseldorf, D-4000 Germany
Univ Dusseldorf, Inst Med Legale, Dusseldorf, D-4000 Germany
Fac Med, Inst Physiol & Anthropol, Skopje, Macedonia
E-mail Addresses: david.comas@upf.edu
Publisher: BLACKWELL PUBLISHING LTD, 9600 GARSINGTON RD, OXFORD OX4 2DG, OXON, ENGLAND
Subject Category: GENETICS & HEREDITY
IDS Number: 802ZD
ISSN: 0003-4800

 

 
Record 1 of 1


Edited by Anton - 30-Jun-2006 at 20:32
Back to Top
Arbr Z View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 26-May-2006
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 598 		  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 21:02

Well,the definition of hellenic is somehow comlpex.Smile
The truth is that these people sooner or later adopted self-willingly the Greek national identity.

Yes, it is apparently more than I expected...


When ???? Me ??
I am 1/4 Vlah Smile
and i dont believe that  Vlahs of Greece are 100% genetic descendands of Ancient Greeks.
Is this confession enough ?Smile
Am i still an evil nationalist?
 
Dont know if this confession is enough, but anywa I am happy, becouse at the end we agreed. This is what I am trying to tell since the beginning, but I was misunderstood. And you are not evilBig smile, but just a bit nationalist
Prej heshtjes...!
Back to Top
Digenis View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 22-Nov-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 694 		  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 05:46
Originally posted by Arbr Z

 And you are not evilBig smile, but just a bit nationalist


I would prefere arguments rather than accusations and silly labels...

Since we agree,u are at least the same nationalist as me Smile
Back to Top
Arbr Z View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 26-May-2006
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 598 		  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 09:19
Originally posted by Digenis

Originally posted by Arbr Z

 And you are not evilBig smile, but just a bit nationalist


I would prefere arguments rather than accusations and silly labels...

Since we agree,u are at least the same nationalist as me Smile


 
And since you use the same "accusations and silly labels"...
Prej heshtjes...!
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 06:17
Originally posted by Anton

For those who use genetical reasons to prove something regarding Aromuns.  Smile  
 
 
 
 
Record 1 of 1
Title: Alu insertion polymorphisms in the Balkans and the origins of the Aromuns
Abstract: We have analysed 11 human-specific Alu insertion polymorphisms in the Balkans to elucidate the origins of the Aromuns, a linguistic isolate inhabiting scattered areas in the Balkan Peninsula. Four Aromun samples (two from the Republic of Macedonia, one from Albania, and one from Romania) and five neighbouring populations (Macedonians, Albanians, Romanians, Greeks, and Turks) were analysed by means of genetic distances, principal components and analyses of the molecular variance (AMOVA). Three hypotheses were tested: Aromuns are Romanophonic Greeks; the result of a Romanian southward migration; or local descendants of the Thracians. The analyses show that the Aromuns do not constitute a homogeneous group separated from the rest of the Balkan populations. Grouping by language or geography does not explain the genetic differences observed in the region, suggesting a lack of genetic structure in the area. Aromuns do not seem to be particularly related to Greeks, Romanians, or to other Romance speakers. The Aromuns might have their origin to the south of the Danube river, with extensive gene flow with the neighbouring populations. The present results suggest a common ancestry of all Balkan populations, including Aromuns, with a lack of correlation between genetic differentiation and language or ethnicity, stressing that no major migration barriers have existed in the making of the complex Balkan human puzzle.

 

 

 
 
That's the same with the above study which does not include the Vlachs of Greece.
 
According to this the Vlachs from FYROM, Romania and Albania are not Romanians or Greeks, and they do not form any specific Vlach ethnicity.
 
But it doesn't answer to the question if the Vlachs of Greece are of Greek origin. 
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 07:34
This research clearly answers this question -- they are from mixed origin. Genetically at least. Like all nations in Balcans including greeks. But I agree that to fully unswer the question some samples from greek Aromuns are needed. But I have no doubts that the result will be the same.

Edited by Anton - 02-Jul-2006 at 07:36
.
Back to Top
Digenis View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 22-Nov-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 694 		  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 09:56
"Greek Aromuns" are fully assimilated with other Greeks.
It would be difficult to find "pure " Vlachs.

It would be also ,useless and silly.
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 17:20
Originally posted by Digenis

"Greek Aromuns" are fully assimilated with other Greeks.
It would be difficult to find "pure " Vlachs.

It would be also ,useless and silly.

 
That's for sure. Even if they were not Greeks, their specific gene pool is fully absorbed into the greek gene pool.
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 17:37
Dorian, could you kindly explain me what do you call "greek genetic pool"?  Smile
.
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 17:54
Gene pool is the total of genes in a population (haplogroups etc). Each nation has some unique "genes" that characterizes its distinction from other nations.
 
Well, this is not the scientific explanation of the term. I think you can find it in the net.


Edited by dorian - 02-Jul-2006 at 17:56
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 18:49
Originally posted by dorian

Gene pool is the total of genes in a population (haplogroups etc). Each nation has some unique "genes" that characterizes its distinction from other nations.
 
Well, this is not the scientific explanation of the term. I think you can find it in the net.
 
I would suggest you to know the meanings of the terms you operate.
Gene pool is total of alleles in a population. Genes in humans are represented by 2 alleles. Oversimplifying, every organism gets 1 allele from mother and another from father. They (alleles) will remain in next generations anyway.  So, I do not understand what kind of absorbtion you are talking about.
 
Genetic analysis of population migrations is based on study of Alu insertions. These are, again oversimplifying, are mobile elements that could move from one parts of DNA to another. They are very variable and differs from one population to another. Study of their structure (simple sequencing as far as I know) allows to study mgration of populations in those cases where no historical sources are found. Good thing is that DNA could be extracted and multiplied from bones and this gives a possibility to study not only prsent populations but ancient ones as well. Thus if you have, let say, properties of ancient population A and properties of ancient population B you will find both these properties in population C if it appeared as mixture of these two. Based on this analysis you may invade term "genetic distance between populations" which again gives you some information about development of present nations. Hypotetical situation: if you have common words in two nations, before starting linguistic analysis it is better to ask whether they have common origins. If you find them, or at least suggest possible existance by genetic analysis, then linguistic, cultural anthropology and archeological analyses will be much more precise.  And there will be much less place for speculations and manipulations like those that you, Dorian, like that this or another particular language or culture is much more respectable then another :)
 
Sorry for the off-topic. I thought that it might be interesting to somebody.
 
But I still do not understand the reason to dispute about Aromans (or whoever else)  in terms who they are -- Romanophonic greeks, Romanians or something else. It is actually question of terminology. It mostly depend on their self determination.
.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 7>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.