Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Why do Arab countries lose wars?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 9>
Author
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697
  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why do Arab countries lose wars?
    Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 06:38
Originally posted by bg_turk

Mira,

If Israel was able to wipe-out all Palestinians, they would have done so long time ago.

I personally do not believe Israel has as a purpose to wipe out all Palestinians,but simply to ensure its survival. 20 percent of the citizens of Israel today are of Palestinian origin, if the purpose of Israel was to wipe them out, why would it give them citizenship?


Yes, I guess you're right.  They can't and don't want to wipe out all Palestinians.  It is technically impossible (unless they follow the American example in Hiroshima.)  The point is, Israel may not want to eliminate the Palestinians, but it also can't win a war against them.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Europeans are more civilized when it comes to war, I guess.

This is simply not true. I hope you are aware of the Frency occupation of Algeria and its war of independence (between 300,000 - 1 million died, 2-3 million were made refugees).



Oh!  You're absolutely right.  Europeans may not be any better, but I still think they've shown better respect for human rights in the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Back to Top
Kapikulu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Berlin
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 06:40

Basically, lack of determination is the most important reason, I believe..

This is an example I always tend to give, by Polish war journalist Ryszard Kapuscinski: "During the 1973 War, Israelis of all ages were rushing to the frontline and working their best to help their army, while many Syrian Arab men were going on with their regular curriculum of smoking waterpipes 20 kilometers behind the front(Golan Heights)"

We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221
  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 08:32
Originally posted by Kapikulu

Basically, lack of determination is the most important reason, I believe..

This is an example I always tend to give, by Polish war journalist Ryszard Kapuscinski: "During the 1973 War, Israelis of all ages were rushing to the frontline and working their best to help their army, while many Syrian Arab men were going on with their regular curriculum of smoking waterpipes 20 kilometers behind the front(Golan Heights)"

There has often been a societal and cultural difference.

Has anyone read Victor Davis Hansen's Carnage and Culture?

 

 

Back to Top
cattus View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1803
  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 11:24
Mira,lighten up. You posted a picture of yourself wearing a hijab.

Collateral damage the same as specific target? I would rather be arrogant than ignorant.


Originally posted by Mira

they can't control a country half the size of the US, and a bunch of "insurgents." They're even making plans to pull out.


They are not pulling out soon. If you knew, you would know that the discussion concerning Rumsfield lately is that he is trying to run Iraq like a corp. i.e., with as little as possible. But anyway, you cant seem to tell the difference between trying to stabilize a country to a real war. The kind of war Arab countries seem to always lose these days.


Ill have to catch that,Pike. VDH is one of todays best thinkers.

Back to Top
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697
  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 11:41
Originally posted by cattus

Mira,lighten up. You posted a picture of yourself wearing a hijab.


I sure did.  But that doesn't mean you can implicitly suggest that hijab can "veil" my thinking.  What you meant was clear.

Originally posted by cattus

Collateral damage the same as specific target? I would rather be arrogant than ignorant.


I'm glad you know the difference.  The difficult part is to educate your government regarding that matter.

Originally posted by cattus

Originally posted by Mira

they can't control a country half the size of the US, and a bunch of "insurgents." They're even making plans to pull out.


They are not pulling out soon. If you knew, you would know that the discussion concerning Rumsfield lately is that he is trying to run Iraq like a corp. i.e., with as little as possible. But anyway, you cant seem to tell the difference between trying to stabilize a country to a real war. The kind of war Arab countries seem to always lose these days.


Ill have to catch that,Pike. VDH is one of todays best thinkers.


"Rum's Field"?  Is that like a field of wine?

Anyway - Rumsfeld can say what he wants.  Stabilizing Iraq by sending its people to torture chambers will only encourage more hostility and hatred towards Americans.

If your soldiers fought man-to-man, at least, instead of dropping down bombs on villages, maybe then we'd be able to better tell whether Arabs lose "real wars" or not.
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221
  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 11:53

Mira:

I think we all understand that you don't care for the United States.  That is your right.

However, please refrain from hystrionics in the forum.

The response to cattus was snotty, and your comment on "real wars" was both ill informed and uncalled for.

 

Back to Top
Pacifist View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 15-Apr-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote Pacifist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 11:54
Originally posted by Mira

America can't win a war in Iraq because of Iraqi resistance.

With all its mighty power, Israel can't fight off the Palestinians.

That's because the US and Israeli army don't want to cause any civilian casualties. Those Arabs who are fighting usually hide among the civilians or mosques (in Iraq for example). If the US or Israel wanted they could easily kill all of them in a brutal way, but this would lead to many civilian casualties which is the reason why they don't.



Edited by Pacifist


Back to Top
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697
  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 12:02
Hmm ..

Try harder, Pacifist.

Edit:  Or maybe I should just heed the advice in your signature.


Edited by Mira
Back to Top
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697
  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 12:03
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Mira:

I think we all understand that you don't care for the United States.  That is your right.

However, please refrain from hystrionics in the forum.

The response to cattus was snotty, and your comment on "real wars" was both ill informed and uncalled for.


Mr Moderator defending his fellow American,

Could you please tell me what my hijab has got to do with this topic?

Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221
  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 12:04
Originally posted by Pacifist

Originally posted by Mira

America can't win a war in Iraq because of Iraqi resistance.

With all its mighty power, Israel can't fight off the Palestinians.

That's because the US and Israeli army don't want to cause any civilian casualties!

Those Arabs who are fighting usually hide among the civilians or mosques (in Iraq for example). If the US or Israel wanted they could easily kill them in a brutal way, but this would lead to many civilian casualties which is the reason why they don't.

I guess America could not win a war in Europe because of German resistance.

The Israelis have been "fighting off" Palestinians and more formidable opponents for almost 60 years.

 

Back to Top
Pacifist View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 15-Apr-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote Pacifist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 12:05

@Mira

You should try harder to understand, instead of mixing your emotions with reality.



Edited by Pacifist


Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221
  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 12:06
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Mira:

I think we all understand that you don't care for the United States.  That is your right.

However, please refrain from hystrionics in the forum.

The response to cattus was snotty, and your comment on "real wars" was both ill informed and uncalled for.


Mr Moderator defending his fellow American,

Could you please tell me what my hijab has got to do with this topic?

The hijab?  Well, that observation was made by cattus, not me.

And I am a moderator of this forum.  That is part of the responsibility.

 

 

 



Edited by pikeshot1600
Back to Top
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697
  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 12:08
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Mira:

I think we all understand that you don't care for the United States.  That is your right.

However, please refrain from hystrionics in the forum.

The response to cattus was snotty, and your comment on "real wars" was both ill informed and uncalled for.


Mr Moderator defending his fellow American,

Could you please tell me what my hijab has got to do with this topic?

  The hijab?  Well, that observation was made by cattus, not me.

 



Exactly.  So why are you addressing me in your post?
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221
  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 12:09
Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Mira:

I think we all understand that you don't care for the United States.  That is your right.

However, please refrain from hystrionics in the forum.

The response to cattus was snotty, and your comment on "real wars" was both ill informed and uncalled for.


Mr Moderator defending his fellow American,

Could you please tell me what my hijab has got to do with this topic?

  The hijab?  Well, that observation was made by cattus, not me.

 



Exactly.  So why are you addressing me in your post?

 

Back to Top
Pacifist View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 15-Apr-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote Pacifist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 12:12

And by the way, stop making personal attacks when you run out of arguments - it won't get you anywhere.



Edited by Pacifist


Back to Top
cattus View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1803
  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 23:20
Originally posted by Mira

So why are you addressing me in your post?


Mira,

Because it was obviously a joke preceded by an emoticon. Continuous insults,are not allowed but poking fun by regulars will not hurt anyone here. I didnt know you were so sensitive about hijabs so I apologize.

Hijab or not, your thinking is anything but clear.

I think we all understand that you don't care for the United States.


True. An understatement actually. I believe she dislikes the U.S. so much, she would rather see that Arab dictator still have his grip on Iraq than American forces be there. The simple formula that goes both ways.. the friend of my enemy[Israel] is my enemy?

cattus wrote:
Collateral damage the same as specific target? I would rather be arrogant than ignorant.

Mira wrote:
I'm glad you know the difference. The difficult part is to educate your government regarding that matter.


Uninteded death is sadly a side-effect of every war. However, the twenty five thousand casualties(which is exaggerated and not all by coalition forces), could have been worse. By what I read from some, you would think that Iraq was carpet bombed.

Originally posted by Mira

"Rum's Field"? Is that like a field of wine?

Anyway - Rumsfeld can say what he wants. Stabilizing Iraq by sending its people to torture chambers will only encourage more hostility and hatred towards Americans.


Now the U.S. is currently herding Iraqi citizens like cattle into torture chambers?

Originally posted by Mira

If your soldiers fought man-to-man, at least, instead of dropping down bombs on villages, maybe then we'd be able to better tell whether Arabs lose "real wars" or not.


Wait,the U.S. put troops on the ground to pull Saddam out of a hole and your fighters of choice hide among civilians and blow up people indiscriminately.

Back to Top
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697
  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2006 at 02:44

Originally posted by cattus

Hijab or not, your thinking is anything but clear.

I have the same opinion about you; whether you live in Washington or amongst the Amish in Pennsylvaniya.

Originally posted by cattus

I think we all understand that you don't care for the United States.


True. An understatement actually. I believe she dislikes the U.S. so much, she would rather see that Arab dictator still have his grip on Iraq than American forces be there. The simple formula that goes both ways.. the friend of my enemy[Israel] is my enemy?

You are free to believe what you want.  I do not "dislike the US," but I certainly despise the US government. 

We're all glad Saddam is finally gone.  We realize, however, that his position as your favorite ally in the region has been replaced.  So it took your government this long to realize he was a criminal, and dissociate itself with his regime?  Yes, it's such a relief he's gone, but I don't see why innocents had to pay the price - and continue to do so - with their own blood.

The US government was not the "enemy," despite its pro-Israel policies, until Bush Jr. won the elections.  Evidently, 9/11 only happened when Bush became president.

Originally posted by cattus

cattus wrote:
Collateral damage the same as specific target? I would rather be arrogant than ignorant.

Mira wrote:
I'm glad you know the difference. The difficult part is to educate your government regarding that matter.


Uninteded death is sadly a side-effect of every war. However, the twenty five thousand casualties(which is exaggerated and not all by coalition forces), could have been worse. By what I read from some, you would think that Iraq was carpet bombed.

What you read is not necessarily the truth. 

You starve the people for 10 years and then expect them to welcome you with wide-open arms?  And to add more to the distrust and hostility, you throw them in Abu Ghraib, and drop down bombs on their villages.

I'll accept your argument about the "unintended death," but what about the torture?  Is Abu Ghraib "unintended," too?

Originally posted by cattus

Originally posted by Mira

"Rum's Field"? Is that like a field of wine?

Anyway - Rumsfeld can say what he wants. Stabilizing Iraq by sending its people to torture chambers will only encourage more hostility and hatred towards Americans.


Now the U.S. is currently herding Iraqi citizens like cattle into torture chambers?

I wish it was the case in Iraq alone.  Afghanistan is not any better.

Originally posted by cattus

Originally posted by Mira

If your soldiers fought man-to-man, at least, instead of dropping down bombs on villages, maybe then we'd be able to better tell whether Arabs lose "real wars" or not.


Wait,the U.S. put troops on the ground to pull Saddam out of a hole and your fighters of choice hide among civilians and blow up people indiscriminately.

Saddam was unarmed.  You're proud of fighting unarmed soldiers and civilians?  Not surprising.

Reminds me of how Tim McVeigh was awarded the Army Commendation Medal (and four other medals, too!) for killing surrendering Iraqi soldiers.  It all backfired, though.  *Sigh*

As for the so-called freedom fighters who hide among civilians - neither I, nor any God-fearing Muslim supports or approves of that.  But those who target armed forces are only practicing their right.  I wouldn't be upset if Americans targeted armed people.

To claim that Americans don't kill civilians is laughable.  Of course they do.  Are the bombs you drop down on villages some hi-tech ones, such that they can distinguish between innocent civilians and armed insurgents?

You are condenmning the Iraqi fighters' indiscriminate killing of innocents while targeting American soldiers.  Well, guess what?  Your troops are doing the exact same thing.  So a few insurgents hiding in a village gets that whole village leveled down?

(Haven't we gone way off-topic?)

Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2006 at 08:24
Originally posted by Mira

Saddam was unarmed. 

I watched a Discovery program about his capture and he was not unarmed, he had a gun with him. But he did not use it.



Edited by bg_turk
Back to Top
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697
  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2006 at 08:58
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Mira

Saddam was unarmed. 

I watched a Discovery program about his capture and he was not unarmed, he had a gun with him. But he did not use it.

Thank you, bg_turk, for correcting me on such a trivial matter.  So basically, a bunch of heavily armed American soldiers were sent to capture an armed-but-didn't-use-his-weapon Saddam, who was also all alone with no guards?

The story doesn't even end at that.  AFP had a news report published for a few days about Saddam being caught by the Kurds, drugged and left to be recovered by American troops.  So even the "heroic" - if we are to consider it so - capturing of Saddam Hussein is disputed.

Let's stick to more important details now, shall we?

Back to Top
cattus View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1803
  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2006 at 11:26
Thats right, it has gone way off topic because you turned this into an anti-american thread like all seem to on this forum.

Originally posted by Mira

You starve the people for 10 years and then expect them to welcome you with wide-open arms? And to add more to the distrust and hostility, you throw them in Abu Ghraib, and drop down bombs on their villages.


The scandal the UN was involved in with Saddam is horrible. Supposedly hundreds of thousands of kids died because Saddam did not allow the supplies in the oil-for-food program to be distributed correctly. Condemn Saddam and the UN all you want. If this stopped though, would the dying under Saddam stop?No.

The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq documented hundreds of thousands civilian executions by Saddam and there was no end in sight to the killing on this scale. So what is the alternative? Should the U.S. with all its power as 1441 is staring them in the face sit and let another Anfal happen? It took war to remove him and war itself unfortunatley causes death. It sucks 25-30 thousand have died to remove this A-hole.

Ofcourse, the casualty figure is not a representation of those killed by U.S. forces and innocent civilian death is much less. How much, we will never know but look at this which uses statistics from 'Iraq Body Count'. I think it makes some good points.

This study reports 24,865 civilian deaths in the first two years of the Iraq War, an apparent ringing endorsement of the "Iraq in chaos" position. But a curious statistical anomaly jumps right off page one: over 81% of the civilian casualties are men. Even stranger, over 90% of civilian casualties are adults in a country with a disproportionate percentage of the population under 18 (44.5%). This contradicts a basic tenet of the civilian casualty argument, namely that we are describing collateral damage during a time of war. Collateral damage does not differentiate between male and female, between child and adult.
http://www.logictimes.com/civilian.htm


Originally posted by Mira

I'll accept your argument about the "unintended death," but what about the torture? Is Abu Ghraib "unintended," too?


It was wrong that those guys were humiliated at Abu Ghraib, but keep some perspective. What would Saddam be doing there if he were still in power. Torture? Saddam murdered,beat, raped, cut off limbs, gouged out the eyes of people there on a regular basis. In one year alone at Abu Ghraib,he executed 4,000 prisoners. He was beheading women and political prisoners there right up to the war.

Honestly,you would think those that were out of line went unpunished and U.S. could care less that this happened.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 9>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.