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Second Bulgarian State

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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Second Bulgarian State
    Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 01:52
I just noticed this thread, it is very amusing and interesting!

Anton, great job!

Unfortunately, I didn't have the streangth to read all 24 (!) pages Dead , so could anyone fill me in if there are some still open questions in precise?
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 11:29
I didn't expect you to agree anyway, you never do, apparently
To your ad hominem spree I have three options, from which I choose the one to ignore it.
 
Moreover, your second question already got an answer, and you, being a Bulgarian, should have learned in high school that your last tsars were not Bulgarians either (at least originally, they might have felt Bulgarians after a while). It is so often in history that the rulers are not of the same ethnic extraction as their subjects ...
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 22-Sep-2008 at 11:31
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 13:41
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Moreover, your second question already got an answer, and you, being a Bulgarian, should have learned in high school that your last tsars were not Bulgarians either (at least originally, they might have felt Bulgarians after a while). It is so often in history that the rulers are not of the same ethnic extraction as their subjects ...
Also I learned at high school that those tsars came from royal families and nations having states for centuries, what cannot be said for Vlachs of that time. I thought this (and medieval Vlach culture and its role in Second Bulgarian Tsardom) might be interesting questions to discuss but apparently your interest is limited only to proof of Vlach ethnicity of Asenids.


Edited by Anton - 22-Sep-2008 at 13:43
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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 14:01
...uh...what did I fall into? 
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 14:33
Originally posted by Yugoslav

...uh...what did I fall into? 
Nothing :)
 
Here is short summary.
In the topic you can find interesting references to Wolf's and Vasary's article/book about the question and also some references about Kaloyan and Pope correspondence. If you don't want to go through the whole discussion the Wolf's article is on:
 
Kaloyan's correspondence (and everythig else related to Asenids in Latin) is in LIBI III ("Latinski izvori za Bulgarskata istorija") and Akropolites and Skutariotes is in GIBI VIII ("Grucki izvori...") on
There is an original text and its Bulgarian translation. You probably will understand a lot.
 
 
Zlatarski's point of view is here:
 
 
We also discussed some particular questions including those:
1. Does Vlach means Vlach or Vlach and Bulgarian in Choniates history?
2. Prediction of Vlach revolt by Voulgaroktonos or what did Choniates mean by Vlach revolt.
3. Are Asenids related to Bulgarian Tsars from First Bulgarian Tsardom.
4. How Bulgarian/Vlach was SBE ethnically and lingually.
 
Many other oftop, including what is peer-review, Thracians, assimilations.
 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 14:46
Originally posted by Anton

Also I learned at high school that those tsars came from royal families and nations having states for centuries, what cannot be said for Vlachs of that time. I thought this (and medieval Vlach culture and its role in Second Bulgarian Tsardom) might be interesting questions to discuss but apparently your interest is limited only to proof of Vlach ethnicity of Asenids.
You talk too much about my person and appearances. The more you do that, the less interest I have in discussing anything with you. 
 
Anyway, you missed the point of the analogy, why would I try to explain more? To make this thread grow another 20 pages with straw men, red herrings and insulting insinuations? No, thank you, I grew tired of it.
 
 
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 15:07
Actually I admire the both of you for trying to make this an interesting 25 pages. I think you both have succeeded. If there is room for agreement may you all have the strength to show it.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 17:04
Anton how can you suggest Vlach also means Bulgarian. Vlach was refered ONLY to latinesque speakers of the time. So what you are telling me is that the Bulgarians were to some effect Romanized that they could be called Vlachs. If that is not the case then no, Vlachs and Bulgarians are two different kinds of people.
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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 17:53
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Anton how can you suggest Vlach also means Bulgarian. Vlach was refered ONLY to latinesque speakers of the time. So what you are telling me is that the Bulgarians were to some effect Romanized that they could be called Vlachs. If that is not the case then no, Vlachs and Bulgarians are two different kinds of people.


It depends when...
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 17:57
I probably misunderstood me. What I suggested was that Choniates could have used term "Vlach" not only for Vlachs but for Bulgarians as well. Even though he perfectly knew the difference between Vlachs and Bulgarians. And tried to rise some arguments (valid and convincing or not) to support this.
BTW, is there any information regarding how close were Vlach societies (in Bulgaria or Byzantine Empire) in medieval time? I heard somewhere, that they were quite close even untill recently, but I might be wrong. Also would be interesting to know if population of Bulgaria was bilingual (including Greek) or most of them spoke only their home language.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 21:39
Yugoslav: True. More recently Vlach is also a German/Croat term for Serbs IIRC.
 
Anton: If he perfectly knew the difference he would know Vlach was a slav's term for latin speakers derived from the Germanic valah. So again you would have to prove that he made this incorrect statement if at all.
 
Can you prove he said that Bulgarians could also be called Vlachs?
 
 
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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 22:38
Russian & Croatian historians Georgie Ostrogorski & Franjo Barisic have issued complete works of all Byzantine chroniclers. This is from that part on Niketas Choniates:

Around Fall's midday he himself went to the surroundings of Philippolis leading along the female part of the court, and then crushed the attacks of Vlachs and Scythians as much as it was possible.


And here are their comments in the footnote:

Choniates often names Scythians next to Vlachs (which is how he calls Bulgarians) as enemies of Emperor Isaak II. Most scientists consider that they are Cumans. Their role in the uprisings of Peter and Asen was immense. The Bulgarian leader offered Friedrich I Barbarossa assistance numbering 40,000 Vlachs and Cumans.

And then in the part about Hrs and the fights over Prosek, dated some time to 1199:

The Emperor moved from Kinsel towards the Thracian cities which were attacked by Vlachs and Scythians, intending to after that capture Hrs, or at least end the attacks that this one made desolating the villages around Serres. This Hrs was of Vlach origins,

And here are the comments:

Full name Hrisos. Hrs is called twice in this section a Vlach, however when Emperor Alexius III besieged Prosek, Choniates claims that the besieged inside were Vlachs. Hrs comes from the area of Strumica which he controlled, his assigment was to defend it from Bulgar and Vlach potential offensives. According to the peace, the Byzantine Emperor was forced to recognize also his reign over Prosek.

Then continues elsewhere:

Scythians have with a squadron of Vlachs crossed the Danube and on the day of Saint Borcio desolated the surroundings of the cities of Messina and Curulon.

...

..Hrs. Because this man, of Vlach descent, had annexed Strymon and taking the fort called Prosek, picked it for his seat.


And the comment:

That's the attack of Cumans and Bulgarians on the cities of Mossinopolis and Curul of April 1199. The attackers achieved a rich loot, and the refugees hid in Curul.

And here's the first one I missed, dated around 1190:

Vlachs were beating up the Romeian Armies. They attacked also well fortified cities. They conquered Anchial, subjected Varna and destroyed most of Triadice (Sophia), Stob.

And the comment:

Here the struggle of Peter and Asen against Byzantium is depicted. Choniates previously described a hard defeat which the Imperial Army suffered in the gorges of the Balkan in the year of 1190. Emperor Isaak II barely saved himself on that occasion. After that the uprisers even further spread their action attacking new areas. Long ago was the fact that Choniates calls often the uprisers Vlachs noticed, and thus a fierce discussion erupted regarding what should be considered under the Vlachs' name, what was their role, who were the leaders of the movement, etc. It is not our task to analize this data. They are in science very well known and considered from all points of view, although often not from purely scientific positions.

It continues the comment by considering that most probably this last "Vlachs" I mentioned was referring to the Bulgars.

There. I hope this was at least of some assistance to your discussion. Star
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 22:57
The "Scythians" were Cumans. Anything from the east was considered Scythian by the Byzantines more or less. You could make an arguement that the Turkik Bulgars were "Scythians" but not the Bulgarians.
 
How does your quote suggest that the term Vlach was being used for anything other then Vlachs?
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 23:39

Yugo, can you please post the rest? I am not sure why everything they said means that Choniates refers to Bulgarians as "Vlachs".

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 23:45
And as far as I understand, Choniates talk about Bulgarians in respect to Prosek. He wrote "Romeans did not keep in mind such castle as Prosek and kept it vacant -- so little did we care about Bulgarians".
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 23:50
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

The "Scythians" were Cumans. Anything from the east was considered Scythian by the Byzantines more or less. You could make an arguement that the Turkik Bulgars were "Scythians" but not the Bulgarians.
 
You are most likely right, although for example Anna Komnina refers to Bulgarians as skythians sometimes. Anyway, what do you think was the participation of Bulgarians in this revolt?
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 00:34
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

The "Scythians" were Cumans. Anything from the east was considered Scythian by the Byzantines more or less. You could make an arguement that the Turkik Bulgars were "Scythians" but not the Bulgarians.
 
You are most likely right, although for example Anna Komnina refers to Bulgarians as skythians sometimes. Anyway, what do you think was the participation of Bulgarians in this revolt?
 
Perhaps she does it in a negative conotation? Or she was refering to the strict Bulgar Turkik element.
 
Bulgarian participation could range. I don't know. Anywhere from the bottom foot soldier to advisors to the Asens.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 02:42
No, actually this is my mistake. She refers only once in the passage related to Irene Doukaina, but what actually she says is that her face was not oval like in Skythian women. In all other cases she refers to Bulgarians as Bulgarians.
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  Quote Ioannitsa Wallahitsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 08:06
well well...what can I say? Welcome to the 12c Balkans. The place where the Vlachs are not Vlachs, The Bulgarians are not Bulgarians, and the Romans are not Romans. :)
 
Only Romania is eternal.....  or at least until the Bulgarian speaking Vlach Ioan Assen II went to war in Romania and took it over ..from Adrianopol to Drach. lol
 
 
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  Quote Ioannitsa Wallahitsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 09:58

sorry for the jokes but I couldn't hold myself listening to Carpathian Wolf and his almost religious conviction that Vlachs equals Latin speakers / Romanians by definition and throughout history. I wish things were that simple and we had Greek speaking Greeks, Bulgarian speaking Bulgarians and Latin speaking Romanians/ Vlachs. Everyone likes definitions :) but when it comes to the Balkans and the mess of the late middle ages in particular all definitions fail because we are not talking about the 5th century ...in the 12c  the names Roman, Bulgarian, and Vlachian represent peoples speaking completely different languages and there is really nothing left from their original meaning. Greek speaking Romans, Slavic speaking Bulgarians and Bulgarian speaking Vlachs and thats only the surface because if we take into consideration that some of these names are used as exonims and self identification by different ethnic groups the mess becomes total. One has to be extremely careful when trying to interpret the medieval sources because the precise meaning of the words Roman Bulgarian and Vlachian depends on who is using them, when, and in what context. All attempts for generalizations to be made regarding the identity of the language and the ethnic group involved are simply doomed. Why? Because Bulgarians call Greeks people who self identify themselves as Romans, the Romans call Vlachs people who self identify themselves as Bulgarians and the Bulgarians call Vlachs people who self identify themselves as Romani. On top of all that we have the fact that none of these groups is geographically or linguistically isolated, with a very high degree of bilinguism and shared vocabulary. The case with Bulgarians and Valchs is particularly clear. May be Carpathian wolf will have no problem to distinguish the citizens of Bukurest and Sofia today, after decades of purging the languages from the undesired Turkish/Slavic/Latin admixtures, but he is deeply mistaken to think that the same thing applies to medieval Bulgarians and Vlachs. How can someone confuse them? Hahaha Well seriously, I can't imagine how a Greek or Frankish knight without any modern linguistical education could tell the difference between the speech of one Bulgarian Tzar and Vlachian Voevode. Just look at their titles. Who is slavic and who is the latin speaker? :) People whose vocabulary is at least 50% identical and even curse in the same language (remember the letters of 14-15c Vlachian rulers ..written in colloqial Bulgarian rather than Church Slavonic). Well may be a modern linguist would be able to say easily who speaks Bulgarian language with Latin admixtures or Latin based language with Bulgarian admixtures but trust me... for all foreigners and non-native speakers 12c Bulgarians and Vlachs were absolutely the same thing :) ...so it would be very stupid to think that the mess about Bulgarians/Vlachs in all contemporary Latin and Greek chronicles is some kind of mistake. It is no mistake. Thats the reality of the 12c.

And to get back to the topic. Vlach means different things in different periods and in the works of different authors. In the work of Niketas Choniates, in particular, Vlachians means the Bulgarians in Mysia, and it has absolutely no reference to Latin speaking populations. It is just a term used to describe the population in the area of Haemus, which at this particular time was predominantly Bulgarian rather than Vlachian speaking and thats why I refer to them as Bulgarians and not authentic Vlachs/Romanians. Of course, the Moesian Vlachs of Choniates no doubt had a Latin speaking component as well. However, this is not what he means when refering to Assenids, their people and language as Vlach and Vlachian. A long time ago before I had an opportunity ro read his work, I was also under the impression that his Vlachs point out the important role of Latin speaking/Vlach/Romanian population in the wars of Assenids, however a close look at his work and all the other chronicles that follow him reveals a completely different picture. Read Choniates and Geoffroy de Villehardouin carefully ;)
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