Finno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos

The older language;

''It seems logical to assume that major migrations should be reflected in the archaeological material. But there is no evidence for a major migration that could have brought a Finnic language to Finland other than that connected with the Mesolithic colonization of the country. ''

Milton Nunez (1987)

The older writing-systems:
http://www.kuzeyipekyolu.com/RunicscriptureEurasia.pdf

Edited by Boreasi - 27-Jan-2009 at 14:02

The point was simply to identify the basis of your prior arguments.

Thus I observe that:

1. The FU languages seems to be the oldest in northern Eurasia.

Thus we may expect that the very oldest populations of central and/or eastern Eurasia have been populated by a FU-speaking peoples - all the way to Altai and Tocharia.
Later the southern Greek, Arab and Asian peoples migrated into the Siberian, Caucasian, Russian and Anatolian plains - which gradually made new languages, as modern Persian, Turkish and Slavonic establish according to the political realities of the post-roman (i.e. monotheistic) cultures. 

As you mention; the FU language still exists within smaller groups and in anchronisms across present Russia, from Carelia to eastern Siberia...

2. The runic alphabeths are the oldest writing-systems in Eurasia.
    Moreover it's the oldest known example of a phonetic alphabeth...

What the liked article shows is the extensive spread of the old rune-writing.
What Turgür and other litterates have shown lately is that this proto-type of the phonetic letters have been used by different language-groups. Thus the eastern and western runes have large similarities and still characteristic differences.

What my link argues is simply that they have a common origin. And nothing but that.


Edited by Boreasi - 28-Jan-2009 at 05:24

Allmost 200 minority languages in Russia, out of which 6 groups over 1 mio speakers. 20% 28 mio) of the whole Russian population in total. However language is not 100% linked to peoples origin. Actually those figures were quite sad and show what happens when your passports are taken away or changed as a Russian passport or you cannot get any education or service in your language. I remember hearing that people had religious services in secret in their own language. Not to mention purges and gulags since the 1920's and so on. In 1944 when Finns reached again Lake Ääninen in the Continuation War, they noticed that whole population had been moved by Russians. There were only a few people left (Veps, if I remember correct). The same happened to large extent to Ingrians. Of course there are a lot of groups who have suffered from opression during ages. Basic human rights are not taken into account.

Originally posted by Boreasi So, what language do you think came first to Russia - the FU or the Slavic?

Well since the proto-FU language is considered to have born in Russia thousands of years BC before the Slavic language group came to existence there's really not much question about that.
But it's not a fruitfull comparison because Slavic is a young subdivision of the IE group that is closer in age to the FU family.

Interesting discussion you have here. There seem to be some sort of confusion about the terminology used. Russians for some reason unknown to me, generalize all Finnic speakers as Finns. Even when we are speaking about very diverce group of modern and ancient ethnoses.

There also seem to be confusion about differentiating between the Rus' and modern ethnos Russian.

If by Finns one means Finnish people from Finland (which is the only proper designation for term Finn) then no, Russians are not Finns.

If one means do Russians have other ancestry than just eats Slavic speaking tribes (such as Polones or Drevlyans) answer is certainly yes. Many of these tribes were Finnic speakers.

Russians (modern ethnos) are, like everyone else, amalgamation of different tribes. Their contribution, I assume, varies a lot depending what part of huge Russia we are talking about.

The Very central of Muscowitia was in Merya (and Muroma) lands. Novgorod Republic was largely (but not only!) Finnic, even related to those tribes of Tavastians, Finns and Karelians whom later became the core of modern Finnish ethnicity.

The Rus' , whom gave their name to all of these different tribes, as Russian, were again another amalgamation.

Like someone allready pointed out their earliest capital was Aldeigjuborg of saga-literature, identified as modern day town of Staraya Ladoga. Aldeigju likely comes from Balto-Finnic Alajoki, literally. Low River. This is fine name for town located at the riverbank.

The Rus', as I allready wrote, were amalgamation of different tribes by their roots. There was two major components, one eastern Scandinavian, Old Norse-speaking and one Balto-Finnic. Also archeology of Staraya Ladoga backs these two groups.

Old Russian chronicles include two peace treaties between the Rus' and Byzant. Earlier from year 911 and later from 944. Names in these treaties also point out to dual origins of the Rus', as "Swedish+Finnish" tradeunion of sort.

Major Slavonic component was added to the Rus' ethnos during Kiovan Rus' period. Slavification of the Rus' can also been seeing from the later (944) agreement between the Rus' and Byzant. The Earlier one does not contain any Slavic names.

If we want to really digg into this we need to have strict chronology of different periods of Russia's history. I mean, we must not confuse modern Russia to Novgorod, Kiovan Rus', Muscowia etc, they different things. Also keep in mind that Russia is huge, many different people inhabited different parts.

Originally posted by Sarmat   Карлы, Инегелд, Фарлаф, Веремуд, Рулав, Гуды, Руалд, Карн, Фрелав, Руар, Актеву, Труан, Лидул, Фост, Стемид

Definitely Norse. In standardized Scandinavian that'd be (as far as I can tell):

Karl, Ingjald, Farulf/-leif?, Värmund, Hrolf, Gudi, Hroald, Kari? (mispelled и for н?), Fridleif, Hroald, Angantyr, Thrond, Lidulf, Fasti, ? (Stenvid maybe).

The 944 list looks like a Russo-Scandinavian hodge-podge.

Originally posted by Sarmat Dear Torsten Stalhandkse,   Welcome to All Empires !!!   By Finns in this topic we mean Finno-Ugric people in general, not just inhabitants of the modern Finnland.

Thanks for welcome! I think it is highly misleading using term Finn when actually referring to large linguistic groupping. Even, I have to say, most of the "Finnish" ancestry in Russia is from Finnic part of the groupping. We however do know lot of the tribes involved. I'll get to them later. For now, just quick comments!

Few more notes about Aldeigju from Gwyn Jones marvelous: History of the Vikings, Oxford University Press p. 251 - 254

A Good deal about Aldeigjuborg will remain puzzling till the early cemetary is found and excavated. Meanwhile we are aware of a great many burial mounds in the Ladoga-Onega area, along the rivers Volkhov, Sias, Pascha, Ojat and Svir. The four hundred or so of these which have been examined speak of Finnish and Swedish traders and colonizers. The Reason for their presence here rather than elsewhere will be apparent if we follow in the track of those men who set out from Sweden, Gotland and Finland, to seek a profit, living, even in the new land.

..

There is convincing archeological evidence of early Swedish and Finnish initiative along the river-routes from Lake Ladoga right down to Gnezdovo-Smolensk and from Lake Onega to Rostov and Murom.

__________

There also is evidence for "autochtonous" component amongst the early Rus', these people still exist and they are called the Veps (annalistic Ves'). It seems like the name Rus' indeed comes from their language and literally means colour red. Some one allready pointed out that colour red was associated with welth. Red pigment for clothing was expensive and your average Joe certainly could not afford it. The Word behind the term Rus' is Ruskie, red, but also handsome, good looking. Parallel between red and good looking is not too hard to figure out when we remember that red clothing was a way to show prestige status in society.

However, I dont think these Rus' left any major component to genetic structure of modern Russians. Other Finnic-people, ones like the Chud' and the Merya certainly did.

You are correct. Kari is found on several runestones, it is not mispelled.