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Catlion
Knight
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Topic: Lions vs. Tigers Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 11:22 |
Apart from all this, go to Bold Champ Forum and find a historical list in chronological order where you will find who has won in the past: the lion by an insulting margin. So what? If you do not accept this, you are free to believe what you want.
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Catlion
Knight
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Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 11:23 |
Taipan is biased? So what is pckts?
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J.A.W.
Consul
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Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 17:45 |
Originally posted by Catlion
Taipan is biased? So what is pckts? |
I had a similar experience at C-F, the infantile hypocrisy there
is fairly notorious..
If you seek to present established scientifically validated data
or results of literature reviews which disprove fanboy fantasies you are subject to rudeness & abuse,
& if you return like-in-kind, you are silenced/banned..
That site has poor credibility as a result of such mismanagement..
& M, any predator that can regularly dominate another animal, will..
in this context, the "lesser beast" must submit to prey status, or be driven out.. this is the very nature of evolutionary development..
"Red in tooth & claw".. & the big cats are actually fairly recent on the scene, but sadly, the technologically driven advance of man has had a crushing effect on them, while ironically spreading their diminutive domesticated cousins around the world - in their stead..
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Be Modest In Thyself..
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Catlion
Knight
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Posted: 22-Aug-2015 at 07:14 |
"I already answered that. The mayority of cats reach for the throat because they fight to the death one on one. Lions don't, they prefer to gang up, avoid the teeth of their rivals and bite them in the lower back."
Lol, then, how do you explain that in the majority (not mayority, are you Spanish)of cases posted in this forum the lion kills the tiger by a throat bite? The same happens concerning lionesses killed by male lions.
Clearly if they employ other methods against male lions is because there is something deliberately ignored by tigerfans called mane.
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Catlion
Knight
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Posted: 22-Aug-2015 at 07:21 |
Besides, how is that there are so many accounts of lions killing tigers through neck bites and not a single one of tigers killing male lions using the same technique?
Recall that the majority of the scanty cases where a tiger kills a male lion is by ripping the belly area or using other ways applied to avoid the protecting mane. When they try directly to bite the lion's neck they fail, as shown in many videos.
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Majingilane
Janissary
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Posted: 22-Aug-2015 at 09:10 |
Originally posted by Catlion
(not mayority, are you Spanish) |
I'm from Argentina, so yeah I speak Spanish, not english.
Originally posted by Catlion
Lol, then, how do you explain that in the majority of cases posted in this forum the lion kills the tiger by a throat bite? The same happens concerning lionesses killed by male lions |
That may work in a closed environment like the one presented in circus and zoos, to them refer the majority of the accounts. And yeah, it is possible, after all the throat bite is the first method used to kill by all cats. However, in wild lions especifically, the method their prefer is to bite in the lower back, incapacitating their rivals. Ocasionally, males will kill a lioness by a throat bite or a sub-adult, but all of them prefer to use the other tactics. It would look like this: There was another one that illustrated it better, but I can't find it at the moment. You see, she doesn't have a mane, yet she is still targeted in the lower back. Wheter it is hyenas, other lionesses or male lions it doesn't matter. That's how they attack.
Originally posted by Catlion
Besides, how is that there are so many accounts of lions killing tigers through neck bites and not a single one of tigers killing male lions using the same technique? |
I have no damned idea. That's why I do take them into consideration when it comes to encounter between them in enclosured places, I'm not ignoring them, but I draw the line when it comes to wild encounters. Accounts that show what happened in circus do not represent what would happen in the wild.
Edited by Majingilane - 22-Aug-2015 at 09:11
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‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows...those that do not run are removed’
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Catlion
Knight
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Posted: 22-Aug-2015 at 13:53 |
Ok, I agree.
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Tigris
Housecarl
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Posted: 22-Aug-2015 at 14:28 |
Catlion and J.A.W., I am sure I linked my sources in bold but it would be my pleasure to post sources. I am not on any of these Tiger -fan websites and this is the only site on which I have posted . Yes Prime has many sources that show the Lion is better, and I have come across many in favour of the Tiger . I have no problem accepting that a lion has defeated a tiger , but so has a tiger . And neither are my sources fabricated or altered with in any way by me. Just saying , as you are now using the fact that my sources are fabricated in your defense of the lion , then I also speculate that these posts I have gone through about the lion are fabricated.
For the record , here is a source that proves that it was a tigress and not a male tiger killed by a lion at Jeonju Zoo : http://bigcatrescue.org/lion-kills-tiger-in-zoo/ It is obviously stated in this that it was a female tiger aka a tigress.
Regarding the Lion killed by the Bengal Tiger , it was on news. Is news fabricated ? Some of it may be but I have no reason to believe why news would fabricate something like this . I don't think news is biased towards the Tiger . I have no pleasure in posting up pictures of lions and tigers killed by each other but here is the llink: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12669308
Anyhow J.A.W. this is what science teaches me about lions and tigers :
1. Tigers are the largest felids . Yes lions are bigger than the smaller tigers , but the Siberians and Northern Bengal Tigers are bigger than lions. Here is a link from a website J.A.W., and interestingly it is called livescience. http://www.livescience.com/27441-tigers.html
2. This is from Lions.org : http://www.lions.org/tiger.html
For a website that is 'all about the great beast of the jungle the wild lion,' it has this to say about the tiger :
3. From worldanimalfoundation.net : http://www.worldanimalfoundation.net/f/Tiger.pdf
Worldanimalfoundation goes on to say this :
So be honest to thyself about these scientific established facts .
I have not come across a case of a leopard killing a tiger and while this may be true then hyenas and giraffes and buffalos have killed lions. There are documentaries on it .
4. Also , what do you make of Animal Planet placing the Tiger in its top 10 Most Extreme -Strength programme and not the lion? I am not being sarcastic but I was disappointed that the lion was not in the Top-10 at all. Here is the link to the full episode :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmgnSfrlj88
The tiger placed 4th.
This is Animal Planet so I'm confident they have their expert team and scientists and animal handlers to give professional advice about animals through their own experiences so that no false certainties are shown.
Edited by Tigris - 22-Aug-2015 at 14:37
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Catlion
Knight
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Posted: 22-Aug-2015 at 14:31 |
Although they do not represent what would happen in the wild, they provide however some information in favour of the lion.
In addition, there seem to be two episodes of lions defeating tigers in the wild (one near de Ganger river which was documented in a German newspaper; another in the Indian region of Punjab, I think, though you may consult it among Prime's posts above).
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Tigris
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Posted: 22-Aug-2015 at 14:54 |
These posts of lions defeating tigers , I will not say its not true . But then there have been many accounts of tigers defeating lions . That's where the problem is , accepting a tiger has also triumphed over a lion .
And while writing my post I just found this from a newspaper article where a Tiger and Lion were pitted against each other , and on this occasion the Tiger emerged victorious........Here is the source to the full article :
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=A-MyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1QAGAAAAIBAJ&pg=3641,6045584&dq=tiger+lion+fight+1899&hl=en
I uploaded some snaps of the text . Majingilane you might find this article interesting also.
Apparently a grizzly was to be brought in after the tiger's victory over the lion . It is interesting that the lion's mane did prevent the tiger from getting a grip . This is obviously an account of the fight and not a fabrication or fantasy.
Edited by Tigris - 22-Aug-2015 at 15:04
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J.A.W.
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Posted: 22-Aug-2015 at 17:52 |
Hah T, you fail to take into account the huge sums wagered & reflected prestige incorporated - in those fights staged by eastern potentates..
Too easy to ensure the desired propaganda outcome for the tiger fan boys, even then..
In other parts of Asia, rulers ensured that the tiger lost its fights when pitted against the local beast of choice, for like reasons..
& I will reiterate, as far as growth-size range goes, there are ( well noted )significant overlaps between lion & tiger, individual variation-wise, so to claim that some artificial mean in comparative size is 'scientific' proof of tiger superiority - is simply spurious..
The true scientific fact of the matter is.. lion differences from tigers are primarily external, & are adaptive to living successfully
in a much more competitive environment..
Tigers & bears do not/cannot compete to live in lion country..
These evolutionary changes do show however, that the different attributes between lion & tiger do work in favour of the lion overall - as has been well noted by the observers & beastmasters who work with them , & certainly, in the context of this discussion..
Edited by J.A.W. - 22-Aug-2015 at 17:54
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Be Modest In Thyself..
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Catlion
Knight
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Posted: 23-Aug-2015 at 06:36 |
Of course it is not a fabrication, but a very famous fight. It is famous precisely because the tiger emerged victorious and there is a long description on the whereabouts of the fight.
We have never said that the tiger cannot win a fight against a lion, but that this will be the exceptional result. In fact, if one reads about the fight one confirms many of the points we have discussed in this forum:
1) The lion was winning, and it was by a single mistake that he ended up losing.
2) The lion's strikes are much more powerful than those of the tiger.
3) The mane affords a high degree of protection.
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Tigris
Housecarl
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Posted: 28-Aug-2015 at 12:52 |
At least we agree that this fight happened and the tiger won . I have no reason to post false and unreliable information. For the record I do not believe just because the bigger tigers are bigger than lions that this makes the tigers superior or more powerful. Which is why when some websites say the tiger is the largest and most powerful of the big cats , I find that vague .
1. As for your opinion J.A.W. on the fight being staged in favour of the tiger to please tiger fans , this is my interpretation of it: The Gaekwar was actually a fan of the lion and his money was on the lion . Now, would it logically be possible to instruct and order a ferocious lion who is a fighter by pedigree to lose his fight against a tiger...
2. J.A.W. , I very much agree that lions live in very competitive environments . There have been no accounts of tigers getting together and taking down a Giraffe. And lions do it . So the lion gets the point from me here. And if I am not wrong leopards and hyenas stay away from lions.
You mentioned tigers and bears , wonder what would happen if a lion and bear crossed paths in the wild? Because Siberian Tigers have been known to take down Siberian Bears. These bears are vicious . The Siberians also have to share their cold harsh environment with Gray Wolves and fight them off. The temperatures are extreme and far below freezing in winter. This is competitive and demanding .
Bengal Tigers have to share their territory with crocodiles , pythons , dholes , leopards to name a few. This is competitive. I found a documentary on a single Bengal Tigress taking down a Mugger Crocodile .
3. I found this from lions.org and it is rather interesting in the context of this discussion:
4. I do not dispute that beastmasters and observers have spoken of the lion being victorious. But then I have also come across names (other than Clyde Beatty) who worked in these lion/tiger handling professions and who have spoken in support of the tiger triumphing.
5. Catlion, I do not in way question's the lion's power and fighting skill. I find it fascinating and marvellous how in this fight the lion's tremendous uppercut sent this massive tiger 20 feet away. That tiger must have been strong to take the lion's dangerous downward whack . And then the account tells of how the lion's swings had evidently much more force in them than the tiger's. Which is why I was flabbergasted when the lion was not in that Most Extreme-Strength programme.
And yes I have to say the lion's mane does offer him a high degree of protection as you stated. I also noted this in my previous post.
6. I have never got a straight answer to this , but perhaps you or J.A.W., could have an answer. Is the lion faster than the tiger when it comes to running and sprinting? From what I have read the lion is but there is no conclusive fact on the speeds. Apparently a lion reaches a top speed of 50mph whereas a tiger reaches 35mph.
Edited by Tigris - 28-Aug-2015 at 13:38
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Catlion
Knight
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Posted: 28-Aug-2015 at 13:29 |
In the short distance tiger is faster, therefore also at sprinting.
In the long distance lion is faster. In other words, he is better in a more prolonged chasing due precisely because his preys have to be hunted in the open savannah.
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Tigris
Housecarl
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Posted: 28-Aug-2015 at 13:35 |
Thank you for that . Yes this would make sense as the Savannah is more open and the chase is longer.
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Tigris
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Posted: 28-Aug-2015 at 14:43 |
And to Prime , I want to re-iterate to you that I am not here on an alternate account and neither am I ANY of those tiger fans you have debated with on other forums (assuming those posts have been written by you using different usernames). You don't know me so don't judge. You seemed to think I am on alt account in your posts . Neither did I say I have spent thousands of cash on tiger/lion conservation. Have you ? And have you had hands on experience rescuing these animals from poachers in the wild? My guess would also be zero? I never said I have rescued lions and tigers .
What I did say was this: We should worry more about the trophy hunting and how we can help towards banning this scum that kill these big cats for their amusement and trophy collection.
What are you Prime going to do about trophy lion hunting ? Rather than get statements from keepers at Ankara Zoo about that lion - tiger fight , why don't you write to your respective government and try to ban trophy hunting? This is a problem that has now caught worldwide attention since Cecil. Without your spelling mistakes , you obviously have the writing ability for it so you should make a bold statement to government. And I mean this.
But you are absolutely right to say I am not on here to argue about whose better. From your posts it was you that was arguing about the lion being better and getting angry at my posts. I am pretty calm and collected about my facts because they are reliable and I am not as insecure as you in proving who is better.
Yes I joined the blog when I noted your post about the Jeonju Zoo lion -tigress incident. As I said then do you think a fight between a male lion and a female tiger is fair ? I wouldn't call a male tiger defeating a lioness in a fight fair combat.
Just like you , I have also been direct and to the point in my posts .
Edited by Tigris - 28-Aug-2015 at 14:45
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andre
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Posted: 30-Aug-2015 at 08:54 |
Originally posted by Lion crest
Originally posted by Catlion
Yeah, and the most astonishing is that Prime's viewpoint on bear's fighting is plainly confirmed: "by frequent affectionate hugs...". So this is the usual way plantigrades fight and not by throwing strikes as defended by bear-fans since Lairwebb times.
It seems that, against a lion, bear is even more disappoting than tiger, although the bear will usually defeat the tiger. |
I think its key too that they gave a long pause between the tiger and bear, the lion was able to catch its breath regain stamina to take on the bear. Multiple accounts seem to show this, yeah bears hug as a fighting technique. I remember Beatty saying as well, that the bear drops its head to protect it, the lion moves it out of the way, but the tiger leaves its head open to being hit.
For those who haven't seen this either and had trouble believing it...here is the actual newspaper pic showing the lion did beat a 1000lb tiger.
(1949)
Many people have had a hard time believing the lion had killed a 1000lb tiger, but here is the undisputed proof on this account, with the actual newspaper pic.
1000-Pound Circus Tiger Loses Fight With Lion NEW BEDFORD, Mass.,
June 2 (/F>—The lion is still king. When the Biller Brothers circus
moved on to its next stop today it left behind the remains of a 1000- pound tiger. The tiger was killed last night in a savage battle with a lion. I still mis the acounts that many lions,not mountain lions ,lost their live in battle with grizlys in mexico and california during 1900 -1920.and the acounts of famous russian hunters like astinov that brown bears scare of off tigers very often in some cases the tiger got slaugtered very easy .the acounts are there well known in europe, unknown in america perhaps .off course a big brown can kill any cat
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KEEP FIRM
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Catlion
Knight
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Posted: 30-Aug-2015 at 11:49 |
It seems that the accounts of lions losing their lives against grizzlies in Mexico (or California) are far away from truth.
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J.A.W.
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Posted: 30-Aug-2015 at 17:51 |
Andre, Catlion is correct.. many of the US pro-bear stories are utter BS..
If you check the 'Natural History' section on this site, you will find a thread which covers Bear VS Lion conflict, & on which, Prime has provided a splendid chronicle of documented data - per this subject.
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Be Modest In Thyself..
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SmartBrain
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Posted: 01-Sep-2015 at 11:16 |
From what i read i understand that if are 10 fights between Lions and Tigers 7-8 are won by Lion . A lot of normal people thinks that tiger is bigger than lion but this is not true if you will serach you will leran that lion aare at least as large as tigers or bigger . Lion is king of beats and dererved that position . I understand good or is sometinhg worng from that i say ?
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