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Challenger2
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Topic: Top 100 Generals Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 13:56 |
I've joined this thread on page 24. Fascinating as it would be to read all the preceding posts, I just need to find where the latest list is. Can anyone tell me what page it's on?
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Temujin
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Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 14:07 |
Originally posted by Challenger2
] Quatre Bras was a victory of sorts as it prevented Ney from falling on Bluchers flank at Ligny, which was what Napoleon had intended. |
no it wasn't. Ney was sent to keep Wellington away from Blcher while Napoleon defeats him, which was achieved. Wellignton in turn had to retreat towards Mont St. Jean and take up position there as a result.
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DSMyers1
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Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 16:34 |
Originally posted by Challenger2
I've joined this thread on page 24. Fascinating as it would be to read all the preceding posts, I just need to find where the latest list is. Can anyone tell me what page it's on?
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The first post in the thread has the latest list, which was updated through page 18. EDIT: I suppose I might as well post it again:
Ranking |
Name |
Born |
Died |
Country |
1 |
Alexander the Great |
356 BC |
323 BC |
Macedonia |
2 |
Napoleon Bonaparte |
1769 |
1821 |
France |
3 |
Temujin (Genghis
Khan) |
1167 |
1227 |
Mongols |
4 |
Hannibal Barca |
241 BC |
183 BC |
Carthage |
5 |
Frederick II of
Prussia |
1712 |
1786 |
Prussia |
6 |
John Churchill (Duke
of Marlborough) |
1650 |
1722 |
England |
7 |
Belisarios |
505 |
565 |
Byzantines |
8 |
Henri de La Tour
d'Auvergne de Turenne |
1611 |
1675 |
France |
9 |
Gustav II Adolf |
1594 |
1632 |
Sweden |
10 |
Caius Julius Caesar |
100 BC |
44 BC |
Rome |
11 |
Subotai |
|
1248 |
Mongols |
12 |
Timur |
1336 |
1405 |
Turks |
13 |
Aleksandr Suvorov |
1729 |
1800 |
Russia |
14 |
Philip II of Macedon |
382 BC |
336 BC |
Macedonia |
15 |
Jan ika |
1370 |
1424 |
Bohemia |
16 |
Eugene of Savoy |
1663 |
1736 |
Austria |
17 |
Heraclius |
575 |
641 |
Byzantines |
18 |
Raimondo Montecuccoli |
1608 |
1680 |
Austria |
19 |
Scipio Africanus the
Older |
237 BC |
183 BC |
Rome |
20 |
Helmuth Karl Bernhard
von Moltke |
1800 |
1891 |
Prussia |
21 |
Gaius Marius |
157 BC |
86 BC |
Rome |
22 |
Cyrus the Great |
590 BC |
529 BC |
Persia |
23 |
Sir Arthur Wellesley
(Duke of Wellington) |
1769 |
1852 |
England |
24 |
Maurice, comte de
Saxe |
1696 |
1750 |
France |
25 |
Louis Nicholas Davout |
1770 |
1823 |
France |
26 |
Erich von Manstein |
1887 |
1973 |
Germany |
27 |
Thutmose III |
|
ca 1540 BC |
Egypt |
28 |
Heinz Wilhelm
Guderian |
1888 |
1954 |
Germany |
29 |
Khalid ibn al-Walid |
584 |
642 |
Arabs |
30 |
Selim I |
1470 |
1520 |
Ottomans |
31 |
Epaminondas |
418 BC |
362 BC |
Greece |
32 |
Louis II de Bourbon,
Prince de Cond |
1621 |
1686 |
France |
33 |
George Kastrioti (Skanderbeg) |
1405 |
1468 |
Albania |
34 |
Leo III the Isaurian |
685 |
741 |
Byzantines |
35 |
Hn Xn |
|
196 BC |
China |
36 |
Gonzalo Fernndez de
Crdoba (El Gran Capitn) |
1453 |
1515 |
Spain |
37 |
Paul Emil von
Lettow-Vorbeck |
1870 |
1964 |
Germany |
38 |
Lucius Cornelius
Sulla |
138
BC |
78 BC |
Rome |
39 |
Winfield Scott |
1786 |
1866 |
United States |
40 |
Suleiman I |
1494 |
1566 |
Ottomans |
41 |
Albrecht Wallenstein |
1583 |
1634 |
Austria |
42 |
Takeda Shingen |
1521 |
1573 |
Japan |
43 |
Nadir Shah |
1688 |
1747 |
Persia |
44 |
Konstantin
Rokossovsky |
1896 |
1968 |
Russia |
45 |
Alexius I Komnenos |
1048 |
1118 |
Byzantines |
46 |
Oliver Cromwell |
1599 |
1658 |
England |
47 |
Maurice of Nassau |
1567 |
1625 |
Netherlands |
48 |
Tiglath-Pileser III |
|
727 BC |
Assyria |
49 |
Janos Hunyadi |
1387 |
1456 |
Hungary |
50 |
Duke of Parma
(Alessandro Farnese) |
1545 |
1592 |
Spain |
51 |
Robert E. Lee |
1807 |
1870 |
Confederate |
52 |
Yue Fei |
1103 |
1142 |
China |
53 |
Toyotomi Hideyoshi |
1536 |
1598 |
Japan |
54 |
Narses |
478 |
573 |
Byzantines |
55 |
Oda Nobunaga |
1534 |
1582 |
Japan |
56 |
Aurelian (Lucius
Domitius Aurelianus) |
214 |
275 |
Rome |
57 |
Claude-Louis-Hector
de Villars |
1653 |
1734 |
France |
58 |
William Joseph Slim |
1891 |
1970 |
England |
59 |
Charles XII |
1682 |
1718 |
Sweden |
60 |
Babur |
1483 |
1530 |
Mughal |
61 |
Jan III Sobieski |
1629 |
1696 |
Poland |
62 |
Georgy Zhukov |
1896 |
1974 |
Russia |
63 |
Qi Jiguang |
1528 |
1588 |
China |
64 |
Andr Massna |
1758 |
1817 |
France |
65 |
Robert Guiscard |
1015 |
1085 |
Normandy |
66 |
Erwin Rommel |
1891 |
1944 |
Germany |
67 |
Stanisław Koniecpolski |
1590 |
1646 |
Poland |
68 |
George S. Patton |
1885 |
1945 |
United States |
69 |
Emperor Taizong of
Tang (Lĭ ShMn) |
599 |
649 |
China |
70 |
Flavius Stilicho |
359 |
408 |
Rome |
71 |
Jean Lannes |
1769 |
1809 |
France |
72 |
Charlemagne |
742 |
814 |
France |
73 |
Ulysses Simpson Grant |
1822 |
1885 |
United States |
74 |
Thomas J. (Stonewall)
Jackson |
1824 |
1863 |
Confederate |
75 |
Kangxi |
1654 |
1722 |
China |
76 |
Shapur I |
|
272 |
Persia |
77 |
Marcus Claudius
Marcellus |
268 BC |
208 BC |
Rome |
78 |
Johan t'Serclaes,
Count of Tilly |
1559 |
1632 |
Austria |
79 |
Sebastien Le prestre
de Vauban |
1633 |
1707 |
France |
80 |
Franois Henri de
Montmorency-Bouteville (Luxembourg) |
1628 |
1695 |
France |
81 |
David |
|
965 BC |
Israel |
82 |
Constantine I the
Great |
272 |
337 |
Rome |
83 |
Wolter von
Plettenberg |
1450 |
1535 |
Livonian Order |
84 |
Sun Tzu |
400 BC |
330 BC |
China |
85 |
Archduke Charles of
Austria |
1771 |
1847 |
Austria |
86 |
Alp Arslan |
1029 |
1072 |
Turks |
87 |
Jebe |
|
1225 |
Mongols |
88 |
Pyotr Bagration |
1765 |
1812 |
Russia |
89 |
Shaka Zulu |
1787 |
1828 |
Zulu |
90 |
Mahmud of Ghazni |
971 |
1030 |
Ghazni |
91 |
William T. Sherman |
1820 |
1891 |
United States |
92 |
Sonni Ali |
|
1492 |
Songhai |
93 |
Henry V |
1387 |
1422 |
England |
94 |
Chandragupta Maurya |
|
298 BC |
India |
95 |
Saladin |
1138 |
1193 |
Arabs |
96 |
Sher Shah Suri |
1472 |
1545 |
Afgan |
97 |
Rajaraja Chola I |
|
1014 |
Chola |
98 |
Pyrrhus of Epirus |
312 BC |
272 BC |
Greece |
99 |
Nathanael Greene |
1742 |
1786 |
United States |
100 |
William the Conqueror |
1027 |
1087 |
Normandy |
Long term, I'd like to get bios written for all of these, preferably by people knowledgeable in that period of history and that region. I, for instance, could write Nathanael Greene without any difficulty, probably without even checking sources--but for Sher Shah Suri, I only know a little... for a few of these guys, I only know what was posted in this thread and what I looked up in Wikipedia.
Edited by DSMyers1 - 07-Aug-2007 at 16:39
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Justinian
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Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 16:50 |
I almost hate to start nitpicking again but I figure its your list and you can always disregard my opinions.
I would say I think you have John Churchill much to high, I would say Prince Eugene was just as good if not better. Also Belisarius should most definitely be above the Duke of Marlborough. I think the Duke is more on par with Cromwell personally.
I would also have Davout higher he was by far the best of Napoleon's marshal's and is the one people talk about being on par with Napoleon in ability.
Rokossovsky should be lower, around where zhukov is.
I wonder whether Archduke charles is worthy enough to make the list at all?
I also think Sherman should be higher, closer to Stonewall Jackson, as well as pyrrhus.
Just wanted to give my impressions of your rankings, an impressive list nonetheless.
Edit: I should add that with something like this you can't make everyone happy.
Edited by Justinian - 07-Aug-2007 at 16:53
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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
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rider
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 02:46 |
Reading that list now makes me want to shoot you... Not only due to the impending linguistic errors (Caius instead of Gaius and so on...) but:
1) Why does Frederick II triumph over John Churchill? 2) Vauban... although he devised many fortresses, I don't remember many battles (or sieges for that matter) by him... I'd say even Overkirk should top him. 3) John Churchill himself should be around the number 5... 4) de Villars... Vendome was a better commander in general.
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Challenger2
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 07:38 |
Originally posted by Temujin
Originally posted by Challenger2
] Quatre Bras was a victory of sorts as it prevented Ney from falling on Bluchers flank at Ligny, which was what Napoleon had intended. |
no it wasn't. Ney was sent to keep Wellington away from Blcher while Napoleon defeats him, which was achieved. Wellignton in turn had to retreat towards Mont St. Jean and take up position there as a result.
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Im wary of starting a sub thread about the Hundred Days here, as its not relevant to the thread. So Ill let Napoleon himself answer you, via Marshal Soult. This is a translation of document XIV of Neys Documents indits du Duc dEchlingen [page 41 of the 1833 publication, if you have a copy and want to check the translation against the original French].
In front of Fleurus 3:15pm June 16th 1815
Marshal,
I wrote to you an hour ago to inform you that at 2:30pm the Emperor would attack the position taken up by the enemy between the villages of St. Amand and Brye. At this moment the action is in full swing.
His Majesty desires me to tell you that you are to manoeuvre immediately in such a manner as to envelop the enemys right and fall upon his rear, the fate of France is in your hands.
Thus do not hesitate even for a moment to carry out the manoeuvre ordered by the Emperor and direct your advance on the heights of Brye and St. Amand so as to cooperate in a victory that may well turn out to be decisive.
The enemy has been caught in the very act of carrying out his concentration with the English.
This clearly states Napoleons intentions. Ney was to seize the crossroads at Quatre Bras and then use the lateral road to flank Blucher at Ligny. Had Napoleon achieved the victory he desired at Ligny, their combined armies would have attacked Wellingtons flank on Mont St. Jean, with disastrous consequences for the allied army.
Wellington had never intended to fight Napoleon at Quatre Bras, having been surprised by Napoleons initial manoeuvres, but by thwarting Ney, he guaranteed Bluchers survival and enabled him to intervene decisively at Waterloo. Therefore, as I said before, Quatre Bras was a victory of sorts, although even by using a narrow tactical definition, it was closer to a draw. Either way, Wellington did not lose this battle.
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Challenger2
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 07:39 |
I find this confusing as having read through the first 6 pages of this thread, Im still unclear as to the criteria you have set to define the top 100 generals of all time.
For a general in the modern era, tactical ability is mostly irrelevant; that type of activity is normally left to more junior commanders. In antiquity and the middle ages on the other hand, this ability was more important. Surprisingly, strategic ability doesnt seem to feature heavily as a criterion, although the generals impact on history does.
A lot of weight seems to be attached to total battles won and to a peculiar undefeated status, as opposed to the opposition faced and the level of achievement in the prevailing circumstances. For example, who is the better general, one who wins a hundred battles against a poorly led rabble, or one that wins a decisive victory against the best troops of the age led by an acknowledged military giant?
Making a direct comparison between eras is also problematic as each general had specific problems to overcome in his time. Many generals of antiquity were rulers in their own right so could do as they wished, while later generals were constrained by their political masters. Surely their achievements should be weighted accordingly?
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Praetor
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 09:34 |
Patton should not be on this list at all, the odds were rarely (if
EVER) against him and his high reputation is solely due to his enormous
ego, boasting, media sensationalism etc. Alexios Komneno's though one
of the greatest Byzantine emperors is too high as evidenced by his
defeats at the hands of Robert Guiscard and later the Pechenegs (though
he got his Revenge on both the Pechenegs and the Normans), he
compensated with great skill in diplomacy and a daughter who wrote a
VERY favourable history about his life and reign (Alexiad). I would
recommend that Nadir Shah be ranked above Sulieman "the magnificent"
who though able had his share of defeats and the strongest empire in
the middle east and Europe (with the possible exception of the Hapsburg
Empire) at his disposal, whereas Nadir worked his way up to the top and
restored the fortunes of the Persian Empire by first driving the
Afghans from the heart of the said empire itself.
I would recommend the addition of Quintus Sertorius to your list as he
defeated Pompey in battle at least twice, He would not be beaten again
until Pharsalus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sertorius, I
would also recommend the addition of Basil II Bulgaractoness to the
list for his conquest of Bulgaria, victory in a major civil war
(admittedly he got a bit lucky) and general success of his armies
against all foes during his reign.
best of luck with the list, Praetor.
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 11:45 |
I have never seen a more biased list in my life. I wouldn't be surpsrised if you just listed your top 5 favorite generals and then randomly ranked the rest without knowing who they were. Very uneducational and misleading.
Just because you the only history you know of is American and European doesn't mean their generals should be on top of the list.
The only rankings the seem legitimate on your list are Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan. The rest are all under/over-rated.
Khalid Ibn Al Walid is extremely underated (he should be #1 or #2 after Alexander)
Napolean Bonepart is extremely overrated
Scipio Africanus should be definitely above Hannibal.
Really you need to put in much more thought to your rankings. It is almost random.
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 12:03 |
And although wikipedia is not my favorite for history readings.. it gives pretty good intros..
This is ONLY one of his many succefsul battles. I urge you to read all of it. Some of the greatest tactics of war can be learned from this battle.
Al Walid's army was outnumberd by about 4:1 in this battle yet still managed to achieve a decisive victory over the Byzatinian Empire. It is very interesting!
Edited by safsaf - 08-Aug-2007 at 12:09
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DSMyers1
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 14:40 |
Originally posted by Challenger2
I find this confusing as having read through the first 6 pages of this thread, Im still unclear as to the criteria you have set to define the top 100 generals of all time.
For a general in the modern era, tactical ability is mostly irrelevant; that type of activity is normally left to more junior commanders. In antiquity and the middle ages on the other hand, this ability was more important. Surprisingly, strategic ability doesnt seem to feature heavily as a criterion, although the generals impact on history does.
A lot of weight seems to be attached to total battles won and to a peculiar undefeated status, as opposed to the opposition faced and the level of achievement in the prevailing circumstances. For example, who is the better general, one who wins a hundred battles against a poorly led rabble, or one that wins a decisive victory against the best troops of the age led by an acknowledged military giant?
Making a direct comparison between eras is also problematic as each general had specific problems to overcome in his time. Many generals of antiquity were rulers in their own right so could do as they wished, while later generals were constrained by their political masters. Surely their achievements should be weighted accordingly? |
Unfortunately, I am also unclear as to the criteria--thus, you may see that this list is rather subjective. Indeed, it is impossible to compare generals from different eras and regions objectively--there is simply no way to know how each would have filled another's place. Actually, different eras called for different types of generals--Alexander needed different qualities than Genghis Khan. Totally different. The only pseudo-objective way to rank generals would be to assign categories and "scores" in those areas. And I shy away from that, for a general's talents were simply not quantifiable, and I feel that doing so does not accomplish what this list wants to. I want this list to raise awareness of generals of great skill from obscure times and places and to help educate the average person on some of the great people of history, many of which are unknown on the street. Thus, I urge everyone to stop looking at this list as a competition, as "my country's general was better than yours." Every person's "Top 100 Generals" would be utterly different. However, I have endeavored to do a decent job of representing generals' relative skills accurately. Thus, I am open to making changes if one makes a good case. For a good case, I would like to see a person provide reasoning behind making their favorite higher than someone farther up the list-- for instance, don't simply say "This guy was better than that guy" and provide Wikipedia links. I have read all of the Wikipedia links. I have read the info on SwordofAllah.com, some time ago. Does this information necessarily mean that general was greater than another? No. Thus, what I would like to encourage is simply posting of generals for consideration for inclusion with relevant links and justification. If someone wants to move a general up on the list, please provide a reasoned argument for moving them above someone higher on the list--a comparative essay of sorts. For instance, one might compare Maurice of Nassau with Gustavus Adolphus--listing their competition, major battles, and some of their innovations--and then conclude that Maurice was the greater general. One last thing--everybody's biased. Your education was biased, likely in favor of your nation's generals and the generals in your region. Don't assume you aren't.... I have attempted to temper my biases, though I am sure they still show through. I will point out, however, that this list can hardly be termed "mine" anymore--I have made so many changes based upon the recommendations of forum members that it scarcely resembles my original.
Edited by DSMyers1 - 08-Aug-2007 at 14:53
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 14:48 |
Originally posted by rider
Reading that list now makes me want to shoot you... Not only due to the impending linguistic errors (Caius instead of Gaius and so on...) but:
1) Why does Frederick II triumph over John Churchill? 2) Vauban... although he devised many fortresses, I don't remember many battles (or sieges for that matter) by him... I'd say even Overkirk should top him. 3) John Churchill himself should be around the number 5... 4) de Villars... Vendome was a better commander in general.
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0) Caius vs. Gaius--Variants--I'll check with my Latin-scholar brother... 1) They are pretty equal. Frederick lost a few more times, but his level of difficulty was higher... 2) Vauban was the hardest general to rank on the list--his skills were simply so far from an average general's. Nevertheless, I felt his impact warranted his inclusion. After all, sieges were as much a part of being a general as battles. 3) see 1) 4) They seemed fairly similar to me... Please don't shoot me...
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Temujin
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 14:57 |
Originally posted by Challenger2
Im wary of starting a sub thread about the Hundred Days here, as its not relevant to the thread. So Ill let Napoleon himself answer you, via Marshal Soult. This is a translation of document XIV of Neys Documents indits du Duc dEchlingen [page 41 of the 1833 publication, if you have a copy and want to check the translation against the original French].
In front of Fleurus 3:15pm June 16th 1815
Marshal,
I wrote to you an hour ago to inform you that at 2:30pm the Emperor would attack the position taken up by the enemy between the villages of St. Amand and Brye. At this moment the action is in full swing.
His Majesty desires me to tell you that you are to manoeuvre immediately in such a manner as to envelop the enemys right and fall upon his rear, the fate of France is in your hands.
Thus do not hesitate even for a moment to carry out the manoeuvre ordered by the Emperor and direct your advance on the heights of Brye and St. Amand so as to cooperate in a victory that may well turn out to be decisive.
The enemy has been caught in the very act of carrying out his concentration with the English.
This clearly states Napoleons intentions. Ney was to seize the crossroads at Quatre Bras and then use the lateral road to flank Blucher at Ligny. Had Napoleon achieved the victory he desired at Ligny, their combined armies would have attacked Wellingtons flank on Mont St. Jean, with disastrous consequences for the allied army.
Wellington had never intended to fight Napoleon at Quatre Bras, having been surprised by Napoleons initial manoeuvres, but by thwarting Ney, he guaranteed Bluchers survival and enabled him to intervene decisively at Waterloo. Therefore, as I said before, Quatre Bras was a victory of sorts, although even by using a narrow tactical definition, it was closer to a draw. Either way, Wellington did not lose this battle. |
this is not accurate. napoleons order for Ney was to take up position at Quatre-Bras and wait for napoleon to defeat Blcher and march on Bruxelles concentrated. only after napoleon learned at the day of battle that he was facing the whole Prussian Army and not just individual corps, he revised his orders for Ney (the one you posted) to make a flankign movement to destroy the prussians. for mroe details, and the French original order, see here: http://www.waterloo-campaign.nl/june16/frplannen.pdf Wellignton, on the other hand promised to von Ziethen that he would link up with Blcher and support him at the battle of Ligny, however he has sent only a small frgament of his Army under the command of the Prince of Oranje. nevertheless, Wellingtons plan of supporting Blcher has been foiled. as we have seen, Napoleon defeated Blcher alone, but if we accept the latest order as the relevant one, so we can say that Neys plan was foiled too, so we remain at a draw at best... ;)
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 15:54 |
Originally posted by safsaf
And although wikipedia is not my favorite for history readings.. it gives pretty good intros..
This is ONLY one of his many succefsul battles. I urge you to read all of it. Some of the greatest tactics of war can be learned from this battle.
Al Walid's army was outnumberd by about 4:1 in this battle yet still managed to achieve a decisive victory over the Byzatinian Empire. It is very interesting! |
It was already said by a known and valued comember Knights that Heraclius was not at Yarmouk.
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rider
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 16:00 |
Originally posted by DSMyers1
Originally posted by rider
Reading that list now makes me want to shoot you... Not only due to the impending linguistic errors (Caius instead of Gaius and so on...) but:
1) Why does Frederick II triumph over John Churchill? 2) Vauban... although he devised many fortresses, I don't remember many battles (or sieges for that matter) by him... I'd say even Overkirk should top him. 3) John Churchill himself should be around the number 5... 4) de Villars... Vendome was a better commander in general.
|
0) Caius vs. Gaius--Variants--I'll check with my Latin-scholar brother... 1) They are pretty equal. Frederick lost a few more times, but his level of difficulty was higher... 2) Vauban was the hardest general to rank on the list--his skills were simply so far from an average general's. Nevertheless, I felt his impact warranted his inclusion. After all, sieges were as much a part of being a general as battles. 3) see 1) 4) They seemed fairly similar to me...
Please don't shoot me... |
I'm afraid I'll have to: Although I may confuse the two, Vendome was the one who got the French into a worthwhile position after the defeats of Villars. And if I am not thoroughly mistaken, Vendome was the one who stopped and made inefficient most of the campaigns of Eugene. I'll read the biography of Marlborough again about those times but it is at least clear that after Vendome was brought to command the army in Flanders, France got her first clear signs of repelling the enemies. So, I'd suggest replacing them although I'll consult my book before that. John Churchill however was simply brilliant. B-R-I-L-L-I-A-N-T... He was so much above Frederick II. Look what politics Marlborough had to bring into play to get help from the Dutch and German states. Look how he made certain that Sweden wouldn't join against them... and finally, look how he managed to offer battle successfully four times against the wishes of the Generals of the Dutch.
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Temujin
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 16:47 |
the best French general of the war of spanish sucession isn't even present as i can see...namely the Duke of Berwick.
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Praetor
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 21:44 |
Originally posted by safsaf
And although wikipedia is not my favorite for history readings.. it gives pretty good intros..
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Although Khalid ibn al walid was a military genius and Yarmuk an
astonishing victory, if you read the wiki article you linked us too in
detail you would find that Heraclius was not present at Yarmuk (the
list of commanders at the begining is misleading). One could easily
argue for Khalids advancement in the list, however defeating Heraclius
would not be a valid argument.
Originally posted by rider
It was already said by a known and valued comember Knights that Heraclius was not at Yarmouk.
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I said it first!......or perhaps I'm not a known or valued member.....
Regards, Praetor.
Edited by Praetor - 08-Aug-2007 at 21:47
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rider
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Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 02:58 |
Don't worry, you are not forgotten.
The Duke of Berwick? Hmmh... did he have another name? I seem to remember him but not by this name.
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Challenger2
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Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 07:49 |
Originally posted by rider
Don't worry, you are not forgotten.
The Duke of Berwick? Hmmh... did he have another name? I seem to remember him but not by this name.
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A.K.A. Duc de Fitz-James.
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Challenger2
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Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 07:55 |
Originally posted by DSMyers1
Unfortunately, I am also unclear as to the criteria--thus, you may see that this list is rather subjective. Indeed, it is impossible to compare generals from different eras and regions objectively--there is simply no way to know how each would have filled another's place. Actually, different eras called for different types of generals--Alexander needed different qualities than Genghis Khan. Totally different. |
Thanks for that. At least its not just me!
To get national biases out of the way as objectively as possible then, as far as British commanders are concerned, I would wholeheartedly agree with John Churchill, the Duke of Marlborough as probably the best general weve ever had. On the international level, I believe he should easily be in the top 10, if not the top 5. He had to lead a fragile coalition against the most feared and powerful army of the age. He was hindered at almost every turn by frightened rulers and politicians, yet managed to pull off a massive coup in almost complete secrecy by conducting a strategic redeployment from Holland to the Danube and destroyed the Franco-Bavarian armies led in part by a general considered the best military mind of his age, the Elector of Bavaria. He won all his battles [this seems to be an important consideration] and saved Europe from French hegemony for almost a century. He was much admired by Napoleon and his enemies even wrote a popular song about him!
After him Id place Wellington, who is much underrated and usually dismissed as fighting in a secondary theatre against mediocre opposition. In fact he managed to direct and maintain a fragile coalition, despite deep hostility between the Spanish and British and opposition at home. He forged the army created my Sir John Moore into arguably the best army of the Napoleonic wars. He also won all his battles against the best commanders Napoleon could send against him. Strategically, he never let a transient opportunity get in the way of his strategic goals and his attention to detail, and pioneering tactics led to the ultimate victory in 1814, and again created the circumstances that defeated Napoleon himself in 1815. The Spanish ulcer tied up huge numbers of experienced French troops that could have been better employed elsewhere, and forced Napoleon to fight a war on two fronts. Spanish guerrillas on their own could not have achieved this. On the international stage, given his impact in India and Spain and his massive lasting influence on the British army up to the Victorian age, Id rate him in the top 10.
As far as British generals go I would not rate Cromwell very highly. His only real claim to lasting military fame was the creation of the New Model Army, the first truly full time professional army in Britain since the Romans. His victories were against second rate opposition in a local conflict; the Civil War which although it had deep significance in the British Isles, did not have any significant effect on the outside world at the time. I can point to no sparks of strategic brilliance in order to justify his inclusion on this list. If he remains, for whatever reason, I feel he should be somewhere in the bottom 50 at best.
What is Henry V doing on this list at all? He wandered around France, was outmanoeuvred and cornered and managed to pull off one major victory in his life! It is possible had he lived longer
He might have shown some potential, but from what we have to go on I dont think he merits inclusion on this list. Above him Id place Edward I or Edward III as military commanders, Edward I for creating the first united Kingdom in the British isles, and Edward III for his exploits in the Hundred Years War. Of the two, Edward III possibly merits inclusion somewhere on this list in place of Henry V.
Ill have to look up Bill Slim, but I cant think of any other British commander that had an impact on the world stage and of sufficient ability to merit inclusion on this list.
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