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Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
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Slayertplsko View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 10:44
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

How does nice (a word from French) support your thesis that Germanic languages are really a subgroup of Iranian Language?
Just as I said. So this one is irrelevant.
 
Just because there is a similar word in Old French which has the utterly irrelevant meaning of "silly, foolish",  does it prove English nice comes from French? Whenas the same English word in Middle Persian (3rd century BC-7th century AD) means exactly "pleasant; agreeable; satisfactory. Ø (of a person) good-natured; kind."


Your own source says it is attested from 1290 with the meaning of 'foolish'!! So it meant foolish in English, then it changed to nice.
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 10:56
About BAD:
Your link says it's attested from 1203....how does this date support youe thesis??
It further says: Farsi bad comes from M.Pers. vat (Slovak 'vadný' (with 'ný' as masculine adjective suffix) has almost the same meaning)

So just as I said, it pretty well disproves your claim.


AFAIK Irish or some other Celtic language has 'more' (sea), Slovak has 'more' (sea) as well...do you want to say that Celts are Slavic or Slavs are Celtic??
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Old Teutonic form of better was 'batizó'.
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 13:19
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Just because there is a similar word in Old French which has the utterly irrelevant meaning of "silly, foolish",  does it prove English nice comes from French? Whenas the same English word in Middle Persian (3rd century BC-7th century AD) means exactly "pleasant; agreeable; satisfactory. Ø (of a person) good-natured; kind."


Just because there is a similar word in Middle Persian, which has the utterly irrelevant meaning of 'pleasant, agreeable', does it prove English nice comes from Persian???


Edited by Slayertplsko - 30-Jun-2008 at 13:20
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 17:42

Would you please tell me what "Nice" means in English? silly or foolish?!!!
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 18:15
What are the synonym and antonym words?
 
Avestan (Germanic Origin Word) -> English (French/Latin Origin word)

Hot (Cold) [k->h & d>t Grimm's law] -> Hot (French Cale)
Bad (Bad) -> Bat [better] (French Bon/Bien)
Nays (Nice) -> Nasty (from Old French nastre=bad) or Middle English Nice from Old French nice "silly, foolish"
Div (Devil) -> Divine (from Latin divinus)



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 30-Jun-2008 at 20:02
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 18:29
Originally posted by King John

Cyrus, do some research. A simple input of "nice etymology" into google returns this entry in the online etymology dictionary:
nice
c.1290, "foolish, stupid, senseless," from O.Fr. nice "silly, foolish," from L. nescius "ignorant," lit. "not-knowing," from ne- "not" (see un-) + stem of scire "to know." "The sense development has been extraordinary, even for an adj." [Weekley] -- from "timid" (pre-1300); to "fussy, fastidious" (c.1380); to "dainty, delicate" (c.1405); to "precise, careful" (1500s, preserved in such terms as a nice distinction and nice and early); to "agreeable, delightful" (1769); to "kind, thoughtful" (1830). In 16c.-17c. it is often difficult to determine exactly what is meant when a writer uses this word. By 1926, it was pronounced "too great a favorite with the ladies, who have charmed out of it all its individuality and converted it into a mere diffuser of vague and mild agreeableness." [Fowler]
What is your source for it not entering English via Old French (via Latin)? Clearly if you go to the Oxford English Dictionary you will find that the original meaning (the Old French meaning) is now obsolete and that the modern word nice (pleasant) is derived from that original Old French meaning. You also didn't answer my question, Cyrus. So I will ask the question again: How does nice (a word from French) support your thesis that Germanic languages are really a subgroup of Iranian Language?
Please read my above post, Old French Nice has completely an opposite meaning, we are talking a word which means "(of a person) good-natured; kind." not "foolish, stupid".
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 18:34
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by King John

Cyrus, do some research. A simple input of "nice etymology" into google returns this entry in the online etymology dictionary:
nice
c.1290, "foolish, stupid, senseless," from O.Fr. nice "silly, foolish," from L. nescius "ignorant," lit. "not-knowing," from ne- "not" (see un-) + stem of scire "to know." "The sense development has been extraordinary, even for an adj." [Weekley] -- from "timid" (pre-1300); to "fussy, fastidious" (c.1380); to "dainty, delicate" (c.1405); to "precise, careful" (1500s, preserved in such terms as a nice distinction and nice and early); to "agreeable, delightful" (1769); to "kind, thoughtful" (1830). In 16c.-17c. it is often difficult to determine exactly what is meant when a writer uses this word. By 1926, it was pronounced "too great a favorite with the ladies, who have charmed out of it all its individuality and converted it into a mere diffuser of vague and mild agreeableness." [Fowler]
What is your source for it not entering English via Old French (via Latin)? Clearly if you go to the Oxford English Dictionary you will find that the original meaning (the Old French meaning) is now obsolete and that the modern word nice (pleasant) is derived from that original Old French meaning. You also didn't answer my question, Cyrus. So I will ask the question again: How does nice (a word from French) support your thesis that Germanic languages are really a subgroup of Iranian Language?
Please read my above post, Old French Nice has completely an opposite meaning, we are talking a word which means "(of a person) good-natured; kind." not "foolish, stupid".


No we're not. We're talking about nice...and it's meaning was 'foolish, stupid' in 1290!! IN ENGLISH!! NOT FRENCH!! The current meaning is attested first from 1830.

OK it seems to me that a kindergarten explanation is needed here:
OF 'nice' entered English some time before 1290...in 1290 some English writer used it in the sense of 'foolish, stupid...'. Its meaning later changed several times. By 1380 it meant 'fussy, fastidious'...and so on and so on, it kept changing...first by 1830 its meaning was 'kind, thoughtful', similar to the current meaning...shall I give you a nursery explanation?? I hope it's not needed.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 30-Jun-2008 at 18:47
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 18:36
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Would you please tell me what "Nice" means in English? silly or foolish?!!!



Foolish, stupid in 1290 when it entered the language. Its meaning changed and your link describes the change in detail...deal with it.
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 18:42
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

What are the synonym and antonym words?
 
Avestan (Germanic Origin Word) -> English (French/Latin Origin word)

Hot (Cold) [k->h & d>t Grimm's law] -> Hot (French Cale)
Bad (Bad) -> Bhad [better] (French Bon/Bien)
Nays (Nice) -> Nasty (from Old French nastre=bad) or Old French nice "silly, foolish"
Div (Devil) -> Divine (from Latin diabolus)



What do you mean by..by...by this whole thing?? Could you correct the table please, because it obviously mixes everything up. 

The part before the arrow is clear to me, it should be: Avestan (English)...the latter part, however, is a mystery..what did you want to say??

A few problems: bhad is not English, nasty doesn't come from OF nice, divine doesn't come from diabolus (devil does).

Moreover, we've been through 'hot'...it would mean that Iranian is a subgroup of Germanic. Why do you keep posting the same if you've been proved wrong??


Edited by Slayertplsko - 30-Jun-2008 at 19:19
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 19:44
I meant Latin "divinus" not "diabolus".
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 19:57
Aha. I still don't understand much of it. Could you give me reference for Avestan 'hot', 'nays', 'div', 'bad'??
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 20:14
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by King John

Cyrus, do some research. A simple input of "nice etymology" into google returns this entry in the online etymology dictionary:
nice
c.1290, "foolish, stupid, senseless," from O.Fr. nice "silly, foolish," from L. nescius "ignorant," lit. "not-knowing," from ne- "not" (see un-) + stem of scire "to know." "The sense development has been extraordinary, even for an adj." [Weekley] -- from "timid" (pre-1300); to "fussy, fastidious" (c.1380); to "dainty, delicate" (c.1405); to "precise, careful" (1500s, preserved in such terms as a nice distinction and nice and early); to "agreeable, delightful" (1769); to "kind, thoughtful" (1830). In 16c.-17c. it is often difficult to determine exactly what is meant when a writer uses this word. By 1926, it was pronounced "too great a favorite with the ladies, who have charmed out of it all its individuality and converted it into a mere diffuser of vague and mild agreeableness." [Fowler]
What is your source for it not entering English via Old French (via Latin)? Clearly if you go to the Oxford English Dictionary you will find that the original meaning (the Old French meaning) is now obsolete and that the modern word nice (pleasant) is derived from that original Old French meaning. You also didn't answer my question, Cyrus. So I will ask the question again: How does nice (a word from French) support your thesis that Germanic languages are really a subgroup of Iranian Language?
Please read my above post, Old French Nice has completely an opposite meaning, we are talking a word which means "(of a person) good-natured; kind." not "foolish, stupid".


No we're not. We're talking about nice...and it's meaning was 'foolish, stupid' in 1290!! IN ENGLISH!! NOT FRENCH!! The current meaning is attested first from 1830.

OK it seems to me that a kindergarten explanation is needed here:
OF 'nice' entered English some time before 1290...in 1290 some English writer used it in the sense of 'foolish, stupid...'. Its meaning later changed several times. By 1380 it meant 'fussy, fastidious'...and so on and so on, it kept changing...first by 1830 its meaning was 'kind, thoughtful', similar to the current meaning...shall I give you a nursery explanation?? I hope it's not needed.
As you said these childish stories should be told just in kindergarten, however I know they don't believe it too because "Children Are Nice to Understand" not "Foolish"!
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 20:19
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

As you said these childish stories should be told just in kindergarten, however I know they don't believe it too because "Children Are Nice to Understand" not "Foolish"!


WHAT??
OK for good - nice means 'pleasant' for less than 200 years, it's original meaning in ENglish was 'foolish, stupid'...you really have to deal with it. What's the problem?? Your own source says that, you don't want to accept it for some reason (nationalist agenda? who knows...).

You told me once that you 'rely on sources'...so I think it's about time to do so. Oh and I would also like to 'rely on sources', so don't forget about those four ''Avestan'' words' reference, so that I have something to rely on.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 30-Jun-2008 at 20:21
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 20:50
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Would you please tell me what "Nice" means in English? silly or foolish?!!!



Foolish, stupid in 1290 when it entered the language. Its meaning changed and your link describes the change in detail...deal with it.
There could be just a mixture between Iranian/Germanic origin word "Nice" which meant "good-natured, kind" and French/Latin origin word "Nice" which on the contrary meant "foolish, silly".
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 21:07
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Would you please tell me what "Nice" means in English? silly or foolish?!!!



Foolish, stupid in 1290 when it entered the language. Its meaning changed and your link describes the change in detail...deal with it.
There could be just a mixture between Iranian/Germanic origin word "Nice" which meant "good-natured, kind" and French/Latin origin word "Nice" which on the contrary meant "foolish, silly".


LOL this is the best one so farLOL
There couldn't...could you give me a reference of 'nice'-base Germanic word before 1290?? In German, Dutch, Swedish, Old Norse, Danish, Icelandic...whatever language?? And also reference for those four words I asked you for (including nays)!

As goode olde Frank Zappa said: It's always advisable to be a loser if you cannot become a winner.
Rather admit you're wrong about the 'nice', than keep on producing this....omg.
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 22:11
Cyrus, are you serious? I don't think you are. Linguists have traced the origins and usages of the English word nice to a word entering English via OF. Clearly if you read what the entry in the Online Etymology Dictionary says you will see that the modern English word nice comes from the OF word nice. Do you have a source that says that the English word nice comes from any other source than OF? You clearly don't understand the concept that word meanings change over time. We can see this in the modern sense of the word "gay" (homosexual) compared to the original sense (happy). Just because a word has a modern meaning that is different from its original meaning does not mean that said word has a different etymology. Just admit that you are wrong about nice and cease this incredibly silly position that you hold. Nice is in fact a word that is first attested in 1290 from OF and has changed its meaning over the last 700+ years. You seem to understand that languages change over time why then can't words change their meaning over time?
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 13:20
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Aha. I still don't understand much of it. Could you give me reference for Avestan 'hot', 'nays', 'div', 'bad'??
We had discussed about Avestan Hota, -> Avestan Dictionary: http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm You can find "Div" (Daeva) there too, "Nays" (Naz) and "Bad" are two modern Persian words which have Avestan Origins.
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 13:42
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Aha. I still don't understand much of it. Could you give me reference for Avestan 'hot', 'nays', 'div', 'bad'??
We had discussed about Avestan Hota, -> Avestan Dictionary: http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm You can find "Div" (Daeva) there too, "Nays" (Naz) and "Bad" are two modern Persian words which have Avestan Origins.


The Avestan word is 'aota', according to the dic pronounced /auta/. When you came up with the intervocalic H, you didn't give me any reference.

Why did you label those words as 'Avestan' if they're Persian?? 'dieva' can be found in Baltic as well. What about 'nays' an 'bad'?? What is their origin?






Edited by Slayertplsko - 01-Jul-2008 at 13:52
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 16:28

Nays (Naz) in Persian ORIGINALLY means "Coquetry" (Oxford Dictionary -> coquette: a woman who flirts & flirt: behave playfully in a sexually enticing manner)

Ou naz ast = She is nice.
Ou naz darad (She has coquetry!) = She is shy.
Ou naz mikonad (She does coquetry!) = She makes a fuss, she minces.
Chehre naz = Nice face
Nazi/Nazanin = Nice, cute, lovely (German Nett)
Nazidan = to exulde; to boast

I think about one half of Persian Girl Names have the prefix or suffix of "Naz": http://farshid.farhat.googlepages.com/girl_names.html (Nanaz=Delicate; Sarvenaz=A tall cypress-tree; a woman with a beautiful figure; Nazila=Cute; coy; ...)
 

German Necken

1. to lark

Lark according to Oxford Dictionary:
n. an activity regarded as foolish or a waste of time: he’s serious about this music lark.
v. behave in a playful and mischievous way.

c.1290, "foolish, stupid"

http://www.dict.cc/german-english/neckisch.html

German Neckisch (from Necken)

1. coy

Coy according to Oxford Dictionary: pretending shyness & shy: nervous or timid in the company of other people.

"timid" (pre-1300);

German Neckisch also means "coquettish", "merry", "amusing", "playful", ...



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 01-Jul-2008 at 18:33
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