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Jay.
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Topic: A Great Education Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 16:28 |
U.S. is one of the richest and most powerful nations on earth. And, they still manage to not endure enough money on education.
Edited by Jay.
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Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb
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Genghis
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Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 16:30 |
Money doesn't solve anything, it's the wise spending and application of it.
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Imperator Invictus
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Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 16:31 |
While the Public Primary/Secondary School system in the US is not that
great, the same cannot be generalized for all of education, especially private school education. At
the University level, US schools is strong in terms of the amount of
research funding. While many graduate students are foreign, it is in
the US that many of the most important research are being developed.
Oxford University has about $4 Billion USD in endowment, which is one
of the highest in Europe. However, this doesn't even rank in the top 10
among US universities. Harvard has reached $25 Billion USD in endowment
this year.
The difference in approach between US and World education is that while
the US values educated less as a whole, the top layer is
well educated, and in many cases that is what it matters. What do you
do with a lot of people who know everything?
Edited by Imperator Invictus
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flyingzone
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Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 17:17 |
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus
The difference in approach between US and World education is that while the US values educated less as a whole, the top layer is well educated, and in many cases that is what it matters.
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I also have some kind words for the American graduate schools and American (not foreign) graduate students. American graduate schools are unquestionably the best of the best in the world, thanks largely to $$$ but also to very strong traditions in both basic and applied research. Amazingly, American graduate students are as brilliant as, if not more, than the foreign students who study in American graduate schools. I say that's "amazing" because considering how absolutely crappy the American pre-university institutions are and how little American teenagers have learned by the time they finish high school, for some miraculous reason, some, even though it's a minority of them, manage to catch up and even surpass their international counterparts.
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus
What do you do with a lot of people who know everything?
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That's sad, but very true. If the Americans knew more, they would have never elected their current president who probably has the IQ of a 16-year-old cheerleader ... Oops ... I forgot Dubya WAS a cheerleader ....
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Imperator Invictus
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Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 20:48 |
At least for me, the "absolutely crappy American pre-university institution" served me pretty well.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 22:28 |
I must agree with Imperator that the educational experience I had was good. I don't think you can paint all schools with the same brush.
As far as flyingzone's experience with grad students, I know they didn't just grow a brain for graduate school. Along the way they surely were impacted by school systems, public or parochial (or private), that challenged them.
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flyingzone
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Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 22:40 |
And to be fair, the Canadian pre-university institutions aren't that enviable either, as has been mentioned by both Decebal and I, and what's more we don't have the good graduate schools like our neighbor does.
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Imperator Invictus
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Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 23:59 |
I think the deal with secondary education in the US is that schools are
not equal. The disparity between a low-income area public school and a
preparatory school, or even a high-income public school is extremely
noticeable. In the latter case, the quality of education is pretty
good. Unfortunately, this is a consequence of the economic
inequality in America.
But then again, the school systems in India and China are even more elitist-oriented, so why blame the US?
Flyingzone, are you British or Canadian? I thought you went to Oxford.
Edited by Imperator Invictus
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flyingzone
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 00:33 |
I have a very complicated education background. I was educated at Oxford, Cambridge, the University of Chicago, and McGill University (Canada)
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flyingzone
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 00:35 |
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus
But then again, the school systems in India and China are even more elitist-oriented, so why blame the US?
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I think it would be sad if we have to compare the education system of the United States to that of India and China ...
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AlokaParyetra
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 18:31 |
Originally posted by flyingzone
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus
But then again, the school systems in India and China are even more elitist-oriented, so why blame the US?
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I think it would be sad if we have to compare the education system of the United States to that of India and China ...
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actually, i think that would be a fair comparison.
Places like India and China have been called the biggest grey matter reserves (actually, i heard that phrase specifically somewhere on this forum). However, as the point was brought up earlier, what are you going to do with a bunch of people who know everything?
I don't live in India, but have numerous relatives that do. Visiting them gives me a chance to see what kind of people work there. And i'll tell you, there are probably more overqualified people there than there are anywhere else.
Priorities are placed primarily on education; people are taught that if you stay in school and work hard, u'll make more money. So, people do everything they can to get more education, and due to overpopulation and the high supply of labor in the market, end up working a job that has nothing to do with the last 10+ years they spent in school but instead gives them money.
And before everyone goes on about how bad the education system in is in the US, you need to understand this. There is probably a greater ability to learn more here than most other places. It's just that the emphasis on learning is less, as in teachers don't push their students as hard. So, if you wish, you can get the best education in the world (even in public schools - to a certain extent. the public school i went to was rated top ten of all schools nationally, so i guess i can't speak for intercity schools and such), but you have to want to get it, something that (unfortunately) many American kids don't care for.
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Jay.
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 18:44 |
Originally posted by flyingzone
I have a very complicated education background. I was educated at Oxford, Cambridge, the University of Chicago, and McGill University (Canada) | McGills in Montreal?
University of Ottawa !!!! (I dont go there, but I will) I'm only 14.
Edited by Jay.
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flyingzone
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 18:48 |
Yup, McGill is in Montreal. It's nicknamed "Canada's Havard." But in fact I think Havard should be called "America's McGill"
University of Ottawa is good. There are many French-English bilingual programmes there. But Ottawa as a city is MUCH less interesting than Montreal. I am sure, however, Decebal will disagree with me
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Jay.
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 18:50 |
Well, I agree with you..But, where I live is much more interesting TORONTO..!
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Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
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flyingzone
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 18:53 |
Originally posted by AlokaParyetra
actually, i think that would be a fair comparison.
Places like India and China have been called the biggest grey matter reserves (actually, i heard that phrase specifically somewhere on this forum).
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Actually, I know, and I agree. I was just trying to be tactful with our American forumer friends here ... For instance, I heard that high school kids in China learn math, physics, and chemistry that are taught in the last year in university in the United States ... I am pretty sure this can be testified by our Chinese forumer friends.
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flyingzone
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 18:55 |
Originally posted by Jay.
Well, I agree with you..But, where I live is much more interesting TORONTO..! |
Toronto is nice. But it does not have the personality that Montreal has. Montreal is quite unlike other North American cities you know.
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Jay.
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 19:00 |
I totally agree with you, Montreal is the backbone of Canada, not to mention the most historic.
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Imperator Invictus
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 20:12 |
Actually, I know, and I agree. I was just trying to be tactful with our
American forumer friends here ... For instance, I heard that high
school kids in China learn math, physics, and chemistry that are taught
in the last year in university in the United States ... I am pretty
sure this can be testified by our Chinese forumer friends. |
That really depends on the schools you're comparing. In fact, there is
an increasing trend in US schools to take advanced courses. As Aloka
said, if you want to learn, the system is open to you. On average, kids
in the US do learn less than their foreign counterparts, but that is
not a direct consequence of the school system. The "problem" is due to the values of the society.
Edited by Imperator Invictus
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Decebal
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Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 09:24 |
Originally posted by flyingzone
Yup, McGill is in Montreal. It's nicknamed "Canada's Havard." But in fact I think Havard should be called "America's McGill"
University of Ottawa is good. There are many French-English bilingual programmes there. But Ottawa as a city is MUCH less interesting than Montreal. I am sure, however, Decebal will disagree with me
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No, I won't disagree with you. Montreal is much more interesting than Ottawa or any other Canadian city for that matter. I live in Ottawa for economic reasons and because my family's here, but if I had a free choice, I'd pick Montreal to live in (in fact I used to, a long time ago).
Anyway, returning to the topic on hand. I think that the general perception of knowledge in the US and Canada is that you should only learn what will be of use to you to make money (what you will use in your career). Any other knowledge is trivial and even sometimes deemed "useless".
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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flyingzone
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Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 16:00 |
It must be quite a blow to those American Christian lunatics who advocate the incorporation of "intelligent design" to the scientific curriculum of schools when they hear this:
"Intelligent design" not science: Vatican paper
By Tom Heneghan, Religion EditorThu Jan 19, 10:52 AM ET
The Roman Catholic Church has restated its support for evolution with an article praising a U.S. court decision that rejects the "intelligent design" theory as non-scientific.
The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano said that teaching intelligent design -- which argues that life is so complex that it needed a supernatural creator -- alongside Darwin's theory of evolution would only cause confusion.
A court in the state of Pennsylvania last month barred a school from teaching intelligent design (ID), a blow to Christian conservatives who want it to be taught in biology classes along with the Darwinism they oppose.
The ID movement sometimes presents Catholicism, the world's largest Christian denomination, as an ally in its campaign. While the Church is socially conservative, it has a long theological tradition that rejects fundamentalist creationism.
"Intelligent design does not belong to science and there is no justification for the demand it be taught as a scientific theory alongside the Darwinian explanation," said the article in the Tuesday edition of the newspaper.
Evolution represents "the interpretative key of the history of life on Earth" and the debate in the United States was "polluted by political positions," wrote Fiorenzo Facchini, a professor of evolutionary biology at Italy's Bologna University.
"So the decision by the Pennsylvania judge seems correct."
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TENET OF FAITH
Pennsylvania Judge John Jones ruled that intelligent design was a version of creationism, the belief that God made the world in six days as told in the Bible, and thus could not be taught without violating a ban on teaching religion in public schools.
It was not science, despite claims by its backers, he said.
This literal reading of Genesis, the first book of the Bible, is a tenet of faith for evangelical Protestants, a group that has become politically influential in the United States.
Many U.S. Catholics may agree with evangelicals politically, but the Church does not share their theology on this point. Intelligent design has few supporters outside the United States.
While not an official document, the article in L'Osservatore Romano had to be vetted in advance to reflect Vatican thinking.
The Seattle-based Discovery Institute -- the main think tank of the ID movement -- said on its website that reading the Osservatore article that way amounted to an attempt "to put words in the Vatican's mouth."
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