Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Sikander
Pretorian
Joined: 12-Aug-2004
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 198
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Turkish pirates in North Atlantic Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:45 |
Omar, that piece of article from Wiki must obviously be wrong.
For instance, the Ottomans never occupied Madeira (and the Spanish king - he rulled Portugal as well - wouldn't ever allow it). They did raid the Portuguese shores, including the island, looking for small ships, but that was it.
|
|
drgonzaga
Colonel
banned
Joined: 15-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 612
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 08:46 |
It is a bit illusory to speak of "Ottomans" when, frankly, the Turkish presence in the Maghrib was more nominal than real and actually a function of the internal politics in the region. Further, everyone is ignoring the Moroccan sharifate. Actually, in the long view, the events in the Western Mediterranean can be explained as a continuation of the much older conflict of Al-Andalus and frankly, after Lepanto, one can not speak of a formal Turkish naval presence, period. Besides just as "raids" could depart from Muslim sites such as Sale and Algiers, so too the Christians from Tangier, Ceuta, Melilla, and Oran, not to mention the Canaries.
|
|
Scott38
Immortal Guard
Joined: 08-Jan-2009
Location: PA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 20:26 |
I am a direct descendant of Anthony Jansen Van Salle he is generally thought to be the son of Jan Jansen Van Haarlem (aka "Morat Rais"). Anthony was a less than admirable individual and was constantly in trouble with the New Amsterdam Dutch authorities as was his wife Grietje Reyniers. They were the subject of a novel "The Drowning Room" by Michael Pye. Anthony is called "The Turk" in colonial Dutch records which would tend to lend some credence to his relationship with Jan. There is a difference of opinion on the parentage of Anthony. Some state he was born in Morrocco while others think he was born in the Netherlands. His brother Abraham Van Salee also lived in New Amsterdam. While Many prominent individuals including the Vanderbilts and Jackie Kennedy were Van Salee descendants.
Anthony owned about 250 acres opposite of Coney Island. I beleive that he did eventually receive part if not Coney Island. It was known as "Turk's Island." There is so much written on the family and so little that is documented. A lot is theory and conjecture at this point. If anyone has more documented sources I would be glad to know of them. I am especially interested in the marriage record o Anthony. It is said Anthony had a Koran that was in his family until modern times at least. I have found no one that has ever seen it or claims to own it. It was said to be sold at auction within the past fifty years or so.
|
|
Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 20:36 |
Don't forget the Turks and Caicos islands
|
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
|
|
erkut
General
Persona non Grata
Joined: 18-Feb-2006
Location: T.R.N.C.
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 965
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 18:54 |
Yeap Scott is there any relation between your grand-grand-grandpa and Turks and Caicos İslands ? :)
|
|
Scott38
Immortal Guard
Joined: 08-Jan-2009
Location: PA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 20:34 |
Hello. I am not aware of a connection to Caicos islands but I am by no means an expert. Anthony Jansen Van Salee was called a "Turk" but this was not a literal term. He is also called "mulatto" in New Amsterdam records. It appears his connection to Jan is based on coincidence of his having obviously been in Morocco thus the "Van Salee" designation. Anthony died in late 1675 or very early 1676.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 15:05 |
I don't know about the Caicos islands, but it's also believed that Jan Jansen Van Haarlem / Sale was appointed Governor of Sale by Moulay Zidan - the emperor of Morocco of that time - and later of Oualidia, near Safi. It's believed he lived out the rest of his days there.
Scott: There are also those that believe that Jansen had three wives: his first, dutch wife, his second, a moorish woman and finally, one of the sultan's daughters - the product of His Royal Loins and Concubine X. There are those that believe that Anthony was born in Cartagena, Spain, from JJVS's moorish wife, but who's to say what's really what? While court records/transcripts give us a good idea as to just how much land he owned and when, I think they also help give us a better understanding of the kind of person he was. In my opinion, the fact that he was in court often does not automatically make him a disreputable person, nor do any of the accusations brought against him. He was a wealthy, visible minority living in a time and place where rumors abounded. One constant that seems to follow him throughout his life in the New World is the contempt and jealousy of his neighbours, whom were always trying to steal from him, whether they were after his cattle, letting their animals graze in his fields or outright encroaching upon on his land.
There are those that will try to sound intelligent, swearing by their favorite author's authenticity while they ridicule any idea which is new to them, and that with the fervor of a religious zealot, without ever having an iota of actual proof. Please, people, try to keep an open mind about things and don't take their drivel as canon. A lot can happen in four or five hundred years. Many revelatory documents can be lost or misinterpreted, and it would be a big mistake to swear by something just because someone who sounded "smart" said it.
My Dutch connection survived the centuries from ear to mouth and so on through several generations of illiteracy. After researching the fact, it's funny to say, but I find that a lot of these family stories hold more truth than any internet "knowitall" working out of their mom's basement ever could.
Respectfully yours,
MDLP
Another descendant of JJVS.
Edited by Cailte - 18-Feb-2009 at 16:28
|
|
MythTR
Knight
Joined: 17-Feb-2009
Location: Türkiye
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 16:00 |
It can be. For example Piri Reis (Turkish Captain) you know had an map about world . We can see on this map the Piri Reis went to America continent before Americo vespuci, Cristof Coulomb and etc..
Because in Piri Reis' map the America and Africa totally droven.
Thank you!
|
We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 00:52 |
I own a map of South America too, but I've never been there.
Because Piri Reis had a map does not mean he went there. He could have stolen it from someone who went there, he could have sent a spy there with another ship, he could have sent a scout there.
|
|
MythTR
Knight
Joined: 17-Feb-2009
Location: Türkiye
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 16:48 |
Hey guy! You can't say he stole that map. Please choose the words carefully!!
A lot of source says, there aren't a map without Piri Reis' map. A lot source says Piri Reis was discovered there.
|
We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
|
|
Scott38
Immortal Guard
Joined: 08-Jan-2009
Location: PA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 18:12 |
I probably should have not stated that Anthony Jansen was "less than admirable." It is true that my ancestor, his son-in-law, Thomas Southard had problems with him.
I have seen the varied speculation about the mother of Anthony. I have even seen somewhere mention of a birth record in Holland for him. That might have been on an ancestry.com chart. There is a wealth of speculation on there. Perhaps someday DNA testing will be advanced enough to solve the parentage of Anthony. The apparent ownership of the Koran by Anthony might be true but he apparently could not read or write. So much that is known about him is based on theory. The New Amsterdam records are the best, albeit not perfect, source that I have found. If anyone has examined records in the Netherlands I would certainly be grateful to know about it.
|
|
edgewaters
Sultan
Snake in the Grass-Banned
Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 18:48 |
Originally posted by MythTR
It can be. For example Piri Reis (Turkish Captain) you know had an map about world . We can see on this map the Piri Reis went to America continent before Americo vespuci, Cristof Coulomb and etc.. |
The Piri Reis map was created in 1513, over 20 years after Columbus' voyage. Vespucci died the year before it was created. The coastlines it depicts are mostly identical to those in the Cantino map, depicting Cabral's exploration of the New World coastlines, which was stolen from Portugal in 1502 by an Italian man named Alberto Cantino. It also resembles the Waldseemuller map, which was published in 1507 (six years before Piri Reis). The only thing particularly remarkable about Piri Reis' map is that it shows a southern landmass that some believe resembles Antarctica - although the practice of including an unknown southern continent, "Terra Incognita", was very old among medieval cartographers.
Edited by edgewaters - 23-Feb-2009 at 18:57
|
|
Reginmund
Arch Duke
Joined: 08-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1943
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Feb-2009 at 09:36 |
Originally posted by MythTR
Hey guy! You can't say he stole that map. Please choose the words carefully!! |
Of course he can say so. It doesn't violate the CoC. You should rephrase that sentence since it sounds like a threat. Who is to say if it's true or not? Piri Reis was a pirate after all (among other things), of course he stole, that's what pirates do.
|
|
MythTR
Knight
Joined: 17-Feb-2009
Location: Türkiye
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Feb-2009 at 20:31 |
Originally posted by edgewaters
Originally posted by MythTR
It can be. For example Piri Reis (Turkish Captain) you know had an map about world . We can see on this map the Piri Reis went to America continent before Americo vespuci, Cristof Coulomb and etc.. |
The Piri Reis map was created in 1513, over 20 years after Columbus' voyage. Vespucci died the year before it was created.
The coastlines it depicts are mostly identical to those in the Cantino map, depicting Cabral's exploration of the New World coastlines, which was stolen from Portugal in 1502 by an Italian man named Alberto Cantino.
It also resembles the Waldseemuller map, which was published in 1507 (six years before Piri Reis).
The only thing particularly remarkable about Piri Reis' map is that it shows a southern landmass that some believe resembles Antarctica - although the practice of including an unknown southern continent, "Terra Incognita", was very old among medieval cartographers. |
That was droven well know as Piri Reis' ?
Well known is it another continent?
|
We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
|
|
MythTR
Knight
Joined: 17-Feb-2009
Location: Türkiye
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Feb-2009 at 20:34 |
Originally posted by Reginmund
Originally posted by MythTR
Hey guy! You can't say he stole that map. Please choose the words carefully!! |
Of course he can say so. It doesn't violate the CoC. You should rephrase that sentence since it sounds like a threat.
Who is to say if it's true or not? Piri Reis was a pirate after all (among other things), of course he stole, that's what pirates do.
|
I don't know wheather your know ( or not) in Turkish, we use a sentence (it is a pattern like idiom )
The cat "which it doesn't reach to lung; kidney" says it is bad.
Edited by MythTR - 24-Feb-2009 at 20:35
|
We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
|
|