the Serb role in the manufacture of the 'Macedonia

Originally posted by akritas I am just post what serious academaic sources claim (Cambridge, Oxford et.c.)  as about your history. If you think that your sources are more reliable from mine let others to judge. The  Amalgamation theory is common among  Balkan people.

Originally posted by Brasidas "To debunk national Myths, especially ethnic ones, you have to come up with evidence that the a) The Macedonians are not desceded from Ancient Macedonians, b) provide evidence that the Macedonians aren't a seperate tribe c) Provide evidence that Macedonians descend directly from somewhere else, ie, Bulgarians. Is it suprising that the Bulgarian links to Macedonians are so close - obviously not. Does it prove anything, no. "       First there is NOTHING that connect the "Ethnic Macedonia" with the Ancient Macedonians EXCEPT the name that they have given themselves.   Next the Macedonians were a seperate tribe, a Greek Tribe! Just like the Spartan, Thebans, Epirotans, Corinthians, Acarnanians, Acardanians. Messenians, Eubeans, so on and so on.   And yes there closeness to the Bulgarians does prove something. The vast majority of them are descendants of the Bulgarians. With the rest being Serbian in the North.    All their founders and heroes even claimed to be Bulgarians.   Misirkov stated that the Macedonians have become a distinct ethnic group due to the correct historic circumstances. That means through time they have come to differentiate themselves from Bulgaria proper due to the REGION they live in.   If you would like more elaboration on these issues I will be glad to give you the links and further info. All from FYROM sites!

Ermm? I am well aware that Modern Macedonians have no links to Ancient Hellenian Macedonians, nor was I claiming anything of that kind.

My Claim is that there is no evidence, as Macedonians quite often claim and Bulgarians disagree with, that Macedonians were a seperate Slavic tribe or some sort of different ethnic group.

Their hero's and founders call themselves Bulgarians, but that might not even be true. Most Montenegran hero's consider themselves Serb, but it doesn't change the national myth of the origin of hte Montenegran nationhood. They merely argue that it formed part of the lesser of two evils in someway.

I don't want more information, I have plenty of places to go for this information. I'm just stating that there is no evidence for most of this nonsense, constructing ethnicities is just part of statecraft in South East Europe. So personally, I question it all and do not believe that anyone can make such strong statements on the matter. Nor do I believe that a Bulgarian, with obvious motives, can moan at the ethnic creativity of Macedonians.

If you want I can provide information that shows Bulgarians are not Slavs too. Does it mean that Bulgarians are not Slavs, nope.

In my world, real ethnicity and provable ethnicity is based on language. Macedonian is a different language to Bulgarian. Now, however constructed that is, it makes no difference. If Americans are Americans, then Macedonians are Macedonians.

I don't see how today's Macedonians can claim to be the direct descendents of the Hellenic people which populated Macedonia over 2,000 years ago.

I don't believe anyone is. There is, to some extent, some national pride based on the name Macedonia and the 'land', but I don't believe there is any great belief of ethnic continuation. Although I'm sure you'd be able to find some Macedonian texts that argue it. The normal argument, is that the Slav tribes either bred with the Macedonian populace or the Macedonians hid in the Moutains etc. There are all sorts of ways of arguing such ideas within national Histories. Its one of the reasons why Balkan National Histories are so much fun.

Originally posted by Anton Originally posted by akritas I am just post what serious academaic sources claim (Cambridge, Oxford et.c.)  as about your history. If you think that your sources are more reliable from mine let others to judge. The  Amalgamation theory is common among  Balkan people.   Yeah, and here we have another feature of your tactics. Somehow you consider that Oxford Cambridge and MIT produce better science than University of let us say Dundee. Which is wrong. In every case you should criticize the arguments but not the place where publication came from. In any case, once I even tried to follow your tactics posting article from Oxford and you just ignored it. So, basically you don't care about academic sources even if they came from Oxford

Edited by akritas - 09-Mar-2007 at 09:15

Originally posted by Anton Originally posted by akritas Show me one publication from  the Oxford that claim Thracian connection of the modern Bulgarians ? I was showing article pointing to existance of non-hellenized non-romanized Thracians until 6-7 century AD.

Originally posted by Anton Originally posted by akritas My question was specific and clear .    What can one discuss with a person, who consider education institution as a "source"?  Sources, my dear Akritas, are works of Procopius and Malala. Whereas people from Oxford make conclusions based an those sources.   If you read works of your co-patriot Peter Charanis you will find that ethnic situation in Balkan Peninsula in early medieval times were complex and there were no clear Greeks, Slavs or others. This is by the way, related to Republic of Macedonia as well. Hence, your question, being specific and clear was not very smart. Sorry about this.

The ethnic situation became more complicated by the appearance(beginning in the eleventh century) of Albanians and Vlachs, descendants of the Latin Illyrians and Daco-Thracians, whom the Slavs had pushed into the mountains when they occupied the Balkan peninsula in the seventh century.

(page 45)

 

 

 

Charanis clearly claim that there is not any connection between Thracian and Bulgarians.And as about the Greeks and his final conclusion ...

 

 

 

Fallmerayer's statement that there is no real Hellenic blood in the veins of the modern Greeks cannot, therefore, be accepted.

Originally posted by Anton Akritas, I refuse to discuss anything with you.  Where you wrote citation "Hundreds of thousands of natives, Illyrians, Thracians, and Greeks were deported; thousands of others were killed." you "forget" its continuation: "Those deported were settled in the regions beyond the Danube, where, as we learned from the text concerning the Kouver, they intermarried with barbarians". And later that they lost their ethnical identity. Sorry, but you are not interested in finding the truth. Instead, you want to prove that Macedonian, pardon Greek dick is longer than ones of your neighbours.

Edited by akritas - 09-Mar-2007 at 11:40

Where Charanis mention Bulgars of Kouver ?

he said FOLLOWERS

Originally posted by Anton Originally posted by akritas Where Charanis mention Bulgars of Kouver ? he said FOLLOWERS   Akritas, your comments become worse and worse. Now Kouver is not Bulgarian. Who is he then? Greek?  Read a bit bit more and come back prepared.

Originally posted by akritas [QUOTE=Anton][QUOTE=akritas] Where Charanis mention Bulgars of Kouver ? he said FOLLOWERS

Oh for Christ's sake stop with this nonsence,Khan Kuber was one of the sons of Khan Kubrat-after his death they spread and each one took a part of the huge nation together with few nobles and everything!

Khan Asparuh created Danube Bulgaria(today's Bulgaria)
Khan Bayan stayed and defended his former lands to the death from the Khazars
Khan Kotrag created Volga Bulgaria
Khan Altsek settled in Italy
And Khan Kuber who was unable to breach through the avars came south and settled in today's Macedonia.

And i don't offend you in any way or claim something-when i said the upper thing about the Khans i gave you a historical fact.

Sorry for the rough language but you macedonians always **ss me off when you try to manipulate history just like you did right now!





Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 09-Mar-2007 at 13:38

Nemski Charanis in the beginning of the paragraph was clear as also and the end.

Edited by akritas - 09-Mar-2007 at 13:57