Early history of Bosnia untill 1463 by V

My friend (if I may call you a friend), you are bathing in ignorance, so much, that you do not want to admit that you are wrong and that you made a number of crucial mistakes. If you would go ahead and acknowledge that you cannot always be right, and that love for history only has to be surpassed by the love for truth, you would certainly become a better expert in history.

I will now first try to answer your comments, and I hope that this will settle it once and for all. If you do try to answer my answers, do please try not to be so superficial as you were before. For example, when you say something, and when you stick with a historical proposition, do your best to argument it and cite the source. This is a theme which will occur regularly through my comments made on your answers. Ok?

Lets begin:

Quote: Most historian dont mention DEI as valid historical point in researching.Bosnia was first mentioned in 8 century, way before Dei

Comment: WHICH historians do not mention DAI as a valid historical source? Could you please name them? It might not be any good for researching details, but the FACT is that the book was written in the middle of the 10th century, and that it metions Bosnia. No previous WRITTEN mention of the name of Bosnia exists. Can you understand this? Could I make it any simpler? Maybe some sources before the Byzantine emperor refer to Sclavonia, or some other term, which could be a name given to land which represents the territory of Bosnia, but THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE BOSNIAN NAME BEFORE THE 10TH CENTURY!!!

I hope that this puts the case to rests. If you don't agree with me, please, for the sake of argument, tell me where you read that Bosnia was mentioned in the 8th century.

Quote: Me, wrong about Prijezda.I think i know something.He is founding father of Kotromanic dynasty.That was his nick Prijezda.In middle ages Prijezdite meant went across the river, thats why Prijezda.He wasnt first official ruler, that was Boric.

Comment: We have no WRITTEN, or any other, SOURCES, that could testify that he was the founder of the ruling dynasty. The fact that his name is often interpreted as ''the one who crossed the river'' or ''the one who ran away'', only served as a point for Serb historians to comment that he was an exiled Serb who ran away form Serbia and crossed the Drina river, after which he ruled over the land of Bosnia, which was, according to the same historians, also one of the Serb lands. This makes no sense, and is not something that is documented anywhere but in the minds of greater serbia ideologists, which aimed to ''serbianize'' the whole of Bosnian history. And also, Prijezda was not his nickname, that was his name. We have two (or even three) different rulers in the second half of the 13th century named Prijezda. They could not all have been running away from something.

Quote: I know more about Bilino sabor, then you, so dont get your hope high, instead asking, you do acccusation part

Comment: You do not know more about the Council at Bilino polje, than I do. That is a fact. We cannot sit down and talk, so you cannot know what I know, and I cannot know what you know, but one thing is for sure - you don't know who you are talking to. So please, such comments should be left aside.

My initial comment on the whole story was, that there was no INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF BOSNIA AT THE TIME OF THE COUNCIL IN THE YEAR 1203!!! I said nothing else. Again, prove to me, by citing sources, that it did exist, I will recommend you to the academic community because you made a significant breakthrough in the historical science. (See the article; Basler, Đuro: ''Bosanska crkva za vladavine bana Kulina'', Prilozi instituta za Istoriju u Sarajevu, god. IX/I, br. 9/1, Sarajevo, 1973, 13-22. and other articles published in the same publication, no. 32, Sarajevo, 2003; also an article by Ante �kegro in Bosna Franciscana about the name BOLINO POILO).

Quote: Derivation of same name, i didnt mention German king Otto , mentioned same person, and same historical things which happened.If on other hand i said king was called Angelo, then you would have valid point

Comment: Ladislav cannot be a derivation of Lois, Lajo�, Ludovic, or Ludwig; IT IS A DIFFERENT NAME!!! Mujo cannot be a name derived from Haso. These are different names. The fact that two kings of Hungary bear those names - Louis and Ladislav is a strong enough point in my favour. Otherwise, they would both be known as Ladislav, or as Louis. But they are not. Lois (or Ludovic) was Lois the Great, and Ladislav was Ladislav of Naples.

Quote: Orbinni is adventurer and his historical perspective is not really influenced by any historian.I Never said anything about Mileseva, there is no valid evidence, to swing it both ways.

Comment: You may think of Orbini whatever you want, but he is still a writer that used relevant sources which existed in his time (1601), but were lost during the period of some 400 years after he wrote. I said that Orbini didn't make a mistake. The mistake was made by Serbian interpreters of the text, becouse they desperately wanted to place king Tvrtkos coronation on serb soil. I do not share your views that there is substantial evidence to swing it both ways. The evidence for the situating of the coronation in Mile is much more relevant than any other serbian text, written for the purpose of falsificating history. (for more see the recently published book by Dubravko Lovrenovic, Na klizi�tu povijesti: Sveta kruna ugarska i sveta kruna Bosanska, Zagreb-Sarajevo, 2006.)

Quote: Sure you do, sure you ''do''

Comment: The whole purpose of my writing to you is to humble you and make you admit that you are not the only one that knows a few things about bosnian history. Even if I don't know something, I have reference books I can look in, I don't need to ask you, especially as you are so shallow in your historical analysis. Doesn't the way I'm putting the evidence and facts before you mean anything to you? Can you not see that I'm a better historian than you will ever be.

Quote: King Ostoja was burried in Donja Zgosca near Kakanj,now just Zgosca.Go, visit village, you still have kings tomb there.Such historian

Comment: And I fancy you went to Zgosca to see the kings grave for yourself? If you did, you could have made a short trip to Kraljeva Sutjeska and Bobovac, not far from Kakanj and Vares, where you could have seen the royal courts and the mausoleum church where the bones of the kings, including Ostoja, were discovered and their stone slabs. (see more at Pavao Andjelic, Bobovac i Kraljeva Sutjeska, stolna mjesta bosanskih vladara, Sarajevo, 1973. and a reprint published in Sarajevo 2004.). Once again, please, please, tell me where you get such nonsense information. Tell me of the books you like to read. Do you pick them up at your local kindergarten library?

Quote: If i dont know about Pribislav Vukotnic and  Restoje Milohna.There were some 300 lords, if not more, all ruled specific area of Bosnia in middle ages?Me, knowing every single lord, is hard task for anybody

Comment: Ok. You don't know them all, but you could know these two. They are not really that unfamiliar. They even have seperate articles published on them. (Ćirković, Počteni vitez Pribislav Vukotić, Zbornik Filozofskog fakulteta u Beogradu, X/1, 1968; and Pavao �ivković: an article from his book Iz povijesti Bosne i Huma, Osijek, 2002.) They were knights on the medieval courts of Bosnia. You will certainly find

more about them at your local information supplier, or in the books you posess. I forgive you for not knowing these two. I will not put any more challenges before you because you didn't pass this one. Ok?

Quote: Altomanovici (Tuzla)

Comment: You corrected yourself later and wrote: Altomanovici(Soli). But you made a wrong correction. Which Altomanovic family had their court in Soli, or Tuzla? Altomanovic was the surname of Nikola Altomanovic, a Serb feudal lord, which antagonized the bosnian ban Tvrtko, and his ally, count Lazar of Serbia. They united, crushed (''rasap'') Nikola, and they divided his lands. Simple. Name me one Altomanovic from Tuzla, and the source where I can check it up.

Quote: Vukcic(Jajce)

Comment: Vukcic was a patronim of Herceg Hrvoje, it was not a real surname, and no family under that name existed. A patronim is a name passed from father to son, and not to his descendants. In a few isolated cases, this did happen. Example: the Hrvatinic family (of which Hrvoje was a member) had their name from the family founder - Hrvatin. That is why Herceg Hrvoje was Hrvatinic. He is also Vukcic because his fathers name was Vukac, hence Vukcic. But how many people bore that name, and fathered sons in medieval Bosnia - thousands. Maybe every tenth person in Bosnia was Vukcic. Herceg Stjepan Kosaca was Vukcic, because his father was also called Vukac. Does that mean that they were members of the sam family?

Ok - we can now move on. If you have understood what I have written above, and if you got over your pride and confidence, maybe you can admit that you were wrong. Otherwise, cite me sources, books, articles, anything. Don't just write out of your head, or from memory.

Just one more thing, the topic is Early history of Bosnia untill 1463. All, or most of, these questions that you set before me are not from that time. Im an expert in medieval history, not the later periods, but I will just as well answer your questions. Just to shut you up, or make you write more sensibly.

Your questions, if I understood them well, are the next points:

1) What I know of Ivan Izacic?

Answer: He was a captain in the 16th century (died 1565.). His family were captains in Ripač, not far from Bihać, and castelains in Izačić, also not far from Bihać. They were first mentioned in the 15th century, and Ivan was a cavalier in the service of George Sauer in 1551. In 1562, he is named as burg-graf (captain) in Izačić. His burial stone was placed in the Bihać church, today Fethija mosque.

Ok?

2) What I know of Jurica and Kristof Hranilovic

Answer: Hranilovic family moved from Travnik in central Bosnia in the 15th century to Croatia, a village named So�ice. Jurica and Kristof were brothers and prominent members of the family. Jurica was vice-captain of Slunj, and Kristof was vice-captain of Ogulin. They died on the 31. may 1693 in a battle with Turks near Ostro�ac.

Ok?

3) What I know of Marko Mesic

Answer: Marko (1640 - 1713) was a priest in a place called Brinje. He organized an uprising of people in 1689. for the liberation from under the Turks. With the aid of the troops from Krajina and Stojan Jankovic, he captured Novi on the 15. june that year, and a month later he took Udbina, which meant the complete liberation of Lika and Krbava. In 1692, he fought off an attack of two military attachments that tried to enter Lika from Bosnia, and in 1697 he joined an attack on Bihac, which was organized by Austrian and Border troops.

Ok?

4) What I know of Vuk Mandusic

Answer: Vuk Mandu�ić (died in 1648) was a 17th century warrior from a village Rup, not far away from Visovac on the river Krka. His fame ensured that he became one of the best known and loved characters of poetry writers. He is even mentioned in the ''Mountain wreath'', a poem by the Montenegrin ruler P. II. P. Njego�. In 1648 he participated in an attack from �ibenik on Drni�. The attack moved forward very fast, so that Mandu�ić came near to the Bosnian town of Kljuc. In the next period he participated in the taking of Knin, Vrlika, Greben and Klis. He was killed in 1648 in the battle of Zvečevo.

Ok?

5) What I know of Stojan Jankovic

Answer: Stojan was a famous Uskok hero, who fought battles against the Turks in the time of the Kandijan (Crete) war (from 1645), and the Morean (Peloponessus) war (1683-1699). He fell to turkish captivity in 1666, and was taken to Istanbul, but ran away and returned after only 14 months. He was decoretad with Venetian knighthood and the golden collar for his bravery. In 1686, he took Sinj from the Turks, and was a liberator of Lika and Krbava. He died during ana attack on the Bosnian town of Duvno (today Tomislavgrad) in 1687.

Ok?

6) What I know of the big plague in Herzegovina?

Answer: There were many big plagues in Herzegovina during the Ottoman times. I don't know which one you are thinking of. Maybe the one from 1690 or the one from 1732?

Ok?

7) The name of village Krizevac, that changed its name during the ottoman times?

Answer: I know nothing of this, and I don't think that you do either. If you do, then it is made up. Probably by you. Where is this village of yours?

Ok?

8) What were decisions of Bilino Sabor, main ones? What were the three big steps taken there?

Answer: BILINOPOLJSKA IZJAVA 8. TRAVNJA 1203.

U ime vječnoga Boga, stvoritelja svega i otkupitelja ljudskoga roda. Od njegova utjelovljenja godine 1203, a (pontifikata) gospodina pape Inocenta III. godine �este. Mi, priori onih ljudi, koji smo se dosad navlastito nazivali povlasticom kr�ćanskog imena na području Bosne, kao predstavnici svih u ime sviju koji pripadaju bratstvu na�e zajednice, u nazočnosti gospodina Ivana de Casamarisa, papinskog kapelana i Rimske crkve u Bosnu zbog toga poslanog, u nazočnosti gospodina bana Kulina, gospodara Bosne, obećavamo pred Bogom i njegovim svetima da ćemo se dr�ati naredbe i zapovijedi svete Rimske crkve kako u �ivotu tako i u svome pona�anju te da ćemo slu�ati i �ivjeti prema njezinim naredbama. Jamčimo u ime sviju koji pripadaju na�oj zajednici i iz na�ih su samostana (loca), sa svom imovinom i stvarima, da nikad ubuduće nećemo slijediti opačinu krivovjerstva. Najprije se odričemo shizme, zbog koje smo ozlogla�eni, i priznajemo Rimsku crkvu, na�u majku, glavom svega crkvenoga jedinstva. U svim na�im samostanima, gdje braća zajedno �ive, imat ćemo bogomolje u kojima ćemo se kao braća zajednički sastajati da javno pjevamo noćne, jutarnje i dnevne časove. U svim ćemo pak crkvama imati oltare i kri�eve, čitat ćemo knjige, kako Novoga, tako i Staroga zavjeta, kako to čini Rimska crkva. Po pojedinim na�im samostanima imat ćemo svećenike, koji moraju barem nedjeljama i blagdanima, prema crkvenim odredbama, slaviti mise, slu�ati ispovijedi i podjeljivati pokore. Pokraj bogomolja imat ćemo groblja, u kojima će se pokapati braća i do�ljaci, ako bi ondje slučajno umrli. Najmanje sedam puta godi�nje iz ruku svećenika primat ćemo tijelo Gospodnje, to jest: na Bo�ić, Uskrs, Duhove, Blagdan apostola Petra i Pavla, Uznesenje Djevice Marije, Rođenje Marijino i na spomendan Svih svetih, koji se slavi prvoga studenog. Odr�avat ćemo postove koje je odredila Crkva, a čuvat ćemo i ono �to su na�i stari mudro odredili. �ene, koje budu pripadale na�oj dru�bi, bit će odijeljene od mu�karaca i u spavaonicama i u blagova-onicama, a nitko od braće neće sam sa samom razgovarati, ako bi odatle mogla proizići zla sumnja. Nećemo uostalom ubuduće primati nekog o�enjenoga ili neku udanu, osim ako bi se oboje obratili obećav�i uzdr�ljivost uz uzajamni. Slavit ćemo blag-dane svetaca koje su ustanovili sveti oci. I nikoga, za kojega bismo sa sigurno�ću znali da je manihejac ili kakav drugi krivovjerac, nećemo  primati  da  s  nama  stanuje. I kako smo od ostalih svjetovnjaka odijeljeni �ivotom i pona�anjem, tako ćemo se također razlikovati odjećom, koja će biti zatvorena, jednobojna, izmjerena do gle�nja. Od sada se nećemo nazivati kr�ćanima, kao do sada, nego braćom, da ne bismo, sebi pripisujući to ime, drugim kr�ćanima nanosili nepravdu. Kad umre me�tar, od sada za vazda, priori s vijećem braće, bojeći se Boga, izabrat će poglavara kojega treba potvrditi papa. I ako Rimska crkva bude htjela ne�to dodati ili umanjiti, vjerno ćemo prihvatiti i odr�avati. Da ovo ima snagu zavazda, potvrđujemo svojim potpisom. Dano kraj rijeke Bosne, u mjestu koje se zove Bilino Polje, 8. travnja (1203). Potpisujemo: Dragič, Ljubin, Dra�eta, Pribi�, Ljuben, Rado�, Vlado�, ban Kulin, Marin, arhiđakon dubrovački. Zatim mi Ljubin i Dra�eta po volji sve na�e braće u Bosni i samoga bana Kulina, s istim gospodinom Ivanom kapelanom do�av�i k uzvi�enom Emeriku, najkr�ćanskijem kralju Ugarske, u nazočnosti samoga kralja i časnoga Ivana, nadbiskupa kaločkoga, i pečujskog biskupa, i mnogih drugih zakleli smo se u ime svih da ćemo ono �to smo ugovorili čuvati, i ako Rimska crkva bude htjela od nas ne�to drugo, uvest ćemo po katoličkoj vjeri.

Ok?

9) Putesestvije was written by which Serbian noble and ruler?

Answer: Putesestvije is a word which means, putopis, ''written travels'', аnybody can write a book by that name.

10) The name of two Muslim families prominent in Krajina, and their origin.

Answer: Many families were prominent in Krajina. This is a question of opinion. If you ask me, I will always tell you that the most famous families were Ibrahimpasici and Filipovici, whose founder was a priest from Zagreb. But I think you want me to tell you about the Hrnjica family that moved to Kladusa from Knin.

Ok?

11) The principle of the treaty of Gabela between Venetians (which you call in our language Mletani, even though such a people do not exist in the English tounge) and Bosnia, and when did the Bosnians take Gabela?

Answer: Gabela was under Venetian rule during the period between 1694 and 1716. In that time they managed to build a strong fortification, but before they eventually lost the place to the Bosnians in 1716, they tore it down and destroyed it. Osman-pasha Resulbegović was the man that was put in charge to rebuild Gabela. I have not heard of the treaty of Gabela.

Ok?

12) Svistov peace 1791 gave what town to Croatia, and why was it important?

Answer: The peace of Svistov, Bulgaria, was signed on the 4. august 1791, by Selim III of Turkey, and Leopold II of Austria. The Austrians returned the three towns they took in the previous war (known as the war of Dubica) - Gradi�ka, Novi and Dubica, but decided to keep Cetingrad. The Bosnians did not want to be at rest with the sultans decision, so they carried on fighting. Hasan-aga from Peć even waged a private war with the Austrians.

Ok?

And just to say that you are a real funny fellow. I don't regret spending my time teaching you some sense, even though I had other things to do. I forgive you, but I will never forgive your ignorance.

Pozdrav!!!