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Topic: Islam and Christianity Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 11:44 |
I am aware that my quastion might sound provocative but was there a time in history of real peaceful coexistation between Islam and Christianity? Or these two major monoteistic religions are fated to be in conflict because they have so much in common...
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Maju
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 15:39 |
They both one lack one thing: tolerance and synchretic ability. They are Jewish sects, what do you expect?
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Komnenos
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 16:43 |
Originally posted by Maju
They both one lack one thing: tolerance and synchretic ability. They are Jewish sects, what do you expect?
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I'm quite astonished to see that such a reasonable question can be turned immediately into, what shall we call it...?, anti-semite or anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli diatribe.
But to answer the original question, there have possibly more instances of a peaceful and tolerant co-existence of both religions, than there have been instances of hatred between each other. As usual, the simple believers of each faith, when they lived in close proximity, had far more in common with each other than not.
But religion has always been used as an excuse for far more profane intentions, lust for power and wealth, and the political leaders on both sides have always understood to whip up hatred between the two religions. That was so during the times of the Crusades, and that is so now. And both sides are as guilty as each other.
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Maziar
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 17:22 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Originally posted by Maju
They both one lack one thing: tolerance and synchretic ability. They are Jewish sects, what do you expect?
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I'm quite astonished to see that such a reasonable question can be turned immediately into, what shall we call it...?, anti-semite or anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli diatribe.
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Nein Komnenos, i would see this as equitable critic. I know no one likes critics, but it's neccesary for us to build and form our own opinions. Some would lighten up flame wars as a reaction against critic and some would accept. Democracy and liberalism won't work without critic. I am very sure Maju respects muslims and jews and christians as humans, and he seek the freedom to criticize religions. I think it is his sovereign right.
Edited by Maziar
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Komnenos
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 17:34 |
Originally posted by Maziar
Nein Komnenos, i would see this asequitable critic. I know no one likes critics, but it's neccesary for us to build and form our own opinions. Some would lighten up flame wars as a reaction against critic and some would accept. Democracy and liberalism won't work without critic. |
I do agree with you in general and I would agree with you here, if there had been any criticism, but there wasn't.
There was no attempt whatsoever to answer the question , which deserves a decent debate, just a generalising one-line slur at the Jewish people, without a necessity to do so.
In addition, it is a historic fallacy to presume that the relation between Christianity and Islam is a never-ending story of mutual intolerance, and if there have periods where that might have been the case, it certainly wasn't the Jewish people fault, or based on the grounds that both were nothing more than a Jewish sect, a very shaky claim anyway.
It's far more complicated than that.
Edited by Komnenos
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Maziar
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 18:01 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Originally posted by Maziar
Nein Komnenos, i would see this as equitable critic. I know no one likes critics, but it's neccesary for us to build and form our own opinions. Some would lighten up flame wars as a reaction against critic and some would accept. Democracy and liberalism won't work without critic.
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I do agree with you in general and I would agree with you here, if there had been any criticism, but there wasn't. There was no attempt whatsoever to answer the question , which deserves a decent debate, just a generalising one-line slur at the Jewish people, without a necessity to do so. In addition, it is a historic fallacy to presume that the relation between Christianity and Islam is a never-ending story of mutual intolerance, and if there have periods where that might have been the case, it certainly wasn't the Jewish people fault, or based on the grounds that both were nothing more than a Jewish sect, a very shaky claim anyway. It's far more complicated than that.
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I agree with you in all points Kamnenos. I didn't say i admire or accept Maju's points of view. I mean he must have the allowness to criticize, regardless if they are shaky claims or not. Was zhlt, ist das Prinzip. (sorry for my bad english, i really didn't know how to translate it)
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Ikki
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 18:10 |
Originally posted by Talleyrand
I am aware that my quastion might sound provocative
but was there a time in history of real peaceful coexistation between
Islam and Christianity? Or these two major monoteistic religions are
fated to be in conflict because they have so much in common... |
There are few times of total war or total peace, i think VII century
when the muslims born and attack to the christians, and the XIII
century when the effects of the crusades was evident can be examples of
total war; i can remember times of total peace...first half of the XX
century?.
Mainly is a question of regional interests: when the spanish kingdoms
fought with one muslim kingdom (called "taifa") was allied with
another; when the Ottoman Empire fought against the Habsburg, was
allied with France and Spain with Persia...
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Guests
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 22:02 |
I give you the reason why christian n muslim fight.There is one problematic verse in bible which is the root.I will find the exact verse n then tell you.
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Guests
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 22:19 |
I don't have bible.I give you one link.If I get bible I give you verse which cause problem.
Ishmael or Isaac? The Koran or the Bible?
http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/ishmaelIsaac.htm
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 23:49 |
The fact that Christian minorities exist in Iran, Syria, Egypt, etc. means that Christianity and Islam peacefuly coexisted to a certain degree.
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Maju
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Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 23:55 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Originally posted by Maju
They both one lack one thing: tolerance
and synchretic ability. They are Jewish sects, what do you expect?
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I'm quite astonished to see that such a reasonable question can be
turned immediately into, what shall we call it...?, anti-semite or
anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli diatribe.
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Anti-Abrahmanic.
Christianity and Islam are Jewish sects. Christian and Muslims are Jews, at least in the religious sense.
And I despise Abraham and all what is written in the OT. Now I respect and value many ethnic Jews like Einstein, Marx , etc.
So my statement is not racist: it's anti-Abrahmanic.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maziar
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 00:06 |
This site only discribes a difference between both religions, but i doubt this is the reason why they fight against each other.
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Maziar
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 00:10 |
Originally posted by Artaxiad
The fact that Christian minorities exist in Iran, Syria, Egypt, etc. means that Christianity and Islam peacefuly coexisted to a certain degree. |
in islamic lands christians are just tolerated by muslims, but they are not as equal as muslims. And if you try to change your faith from islam to anyother religion, you will be sentenced to death.
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Censored
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 00:17 |
Originally posted by Maziar
This site only discribes a difference between both religions, but i doubt this is the reason why they fight against each other.
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The reason is that Bible says that Ishmael and his progeny would always be war-mongers.If your scripture instills a negative image of an entire society of people from the childhood it's difficult to make a positive image when you grow up.Would love to hear the view of christians in this regard.
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Maju
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 01:47 |
I think that the assumption that Muslims are shmailites is a late
elaboration. Anyhow, as I say the problem lies in the OT: no Abraham,
no problem.
We would still be Pagans - or more likely we would follow some other sect like Mithraism, Isism, Dyonisism...
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 03:37 |
Originally posted by Talleyrand
I am aware that my quastion might sound provocative
but was there a time in history of real peaceful coexistation between
Islam and Christianity? Or these two major monoteistic religions are
fated to be in conflict because they have so much in common... |
Well to answer the Question.
Muslim Spain (Al Andaluce),
Muslim Sicily and Norman Sicily,
Any thing ruled by Fredrick II
All Christians in Middle East after the initail conquest and before the crusaders.
Arab, Ethiopian, Armenian Christians during the crusades and ever since in the middle east.
Excluding the rise and fall, the Ottoman Empire.
Now in most countries.
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Leonidas
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 06:03 |
Becuase being they all adhere to abrahamic logic, both sides beleive in absolutes. One is absolutly right the others absolutly wrong. Atleast on the islamic side they reconise that they are related, 'people of the book' and all, its more like they are absolutly right and christians are close but have yet to be enlightened by the last prophet. Either way its a hard to get the two sides no matter how similar to actually see eye to eye.
The irony is, its these similarities that keep them apart, not just their differences.
Edited by Leonidas
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gcle2003
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 07:04 |
Both Islam and Christianity are proselytising religions, actively seeking converts, unlike other religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, or even Judaism.
Since both religions see it as their mission to convert the world, their clash is inevitable.
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Guests
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 08:37 |
I was also wondering is it possible to begin real dialog between Islam and Christianity on some institutional level? Like the one within Christianity which is called ecumenism. It intends searching for common values by regular meetings of the clergy and allows finding common platform of understanding.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 11:24 |
Originally posted by Talleyrand
I was also wondering is it possible to begin real dialog between Islam and Christianity on some institutional level? Like the one within Christianity which is called ecumenism. It intends searching for common values by regular meetings of the clergy and allows finding common platform of understanding. |
Since there are reasonable people on both sides, it's not unachievable.
In which context it is worth pointing out that the Muslim Council of Great Britain, the largest Muslim representative body in the country, yesterday asked that the protesters against the Danish cartoons in London be treated like common criminals where they had crossed the line by, e.g. demanding the deaths of those responsible.
"It is time the police acted but not in such a way as to make them martyrs of the Prophet's cause, which is what they want, but as criminals. Ordinary Muslims are fed up with them"
"The cartoons have offended every Muslim and the anger of Muslims has to be lawfully expressed. However, this outrage was used by some to induce Muslims into taking part in terrorist violence, ahich is abominable. We condemn their actions."
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