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Winterhaze13
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Topic: Germanic Tribes Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 13:53 |
Which is the most important Germanic tribe to European history?
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Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.
-- Voltaire
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Cywr
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Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 13:59 |
Hmm, the Franks were insturmental in creating west European fuedalism
which shaped that part of the continent for some half a millenia.
Its convienient to link ANglo-Saxons to Modern UK, but thats way to
simplistic, there were other influences that made it what it is
whichout which it could not be.
The Vandals and Visgoths help finish off whats left of the Western Roman Empire, but then that was going to happen anyways.
My vote goes for the Franks.
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mord
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Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 14:08 |
[QUOTE=Cywr]Hmm, the Franks were insturmental in creating west European fuedalism which shaped that part of the continent for some half a millenia.
Its convienient to link ANglo-Saxons to Modern UK, but thats way to simplistic, there were other influences that made it what it is whichout which it could not be.
The Vandals and Visgoths help finish off whats left of the Western Roman Empire, but then that was going to happen anyways.
My vote goes for the Franks.
Agreed.
Mord.
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errr...left turn at vinland?
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Winterhaze13
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Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 15:19 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoric_the_Great
Theodoric is one of the most underappreciated but most fascinating Germanic king of the Medieval period. Does anyone know anything but him that they would like to share.
My vote goes to the Ostrogoths out of interest.
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Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.
-- Voltaire
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)
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Exarchus
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Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 15:23 |
The Franks were more important but I always liked the Visigoths, especially because of the Battle of Chalons.
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Vae victis!
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Winterhaze13
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Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 15:28 |
When Theodoric was bearing down on Constantinople, Emperor Zeno made a deal with him. Zeno invited him to invade Italy which was then ruled by another Germanic king named Odoacer. He conceeded and tricked Odoacer into meeting with him. In the midst of a night of drinking, Theodoric killed Odoacer ad his sons becoming King of the new Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy.
During his reign Theodoric retained a good relationship with Constantinople and even preserved Roman culture in that region. He is also known to have organized alliances with most of the Germanic kings of western Europe, including the famous Frankish King Clovis. He died in 526 A.D.
Edited by Winterhaze13
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Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.
-- Voltaire
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)
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Winterhaze13
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Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 15:32 |
The most important Germanic Kings are:
1. Charlemagne
2. Charles Martel
3. Theodoric
4. Clovis
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Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.
-- Voltaire
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)
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Decebal
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Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 16:02 |
Originally posted by Winterhaze13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoric_the_Great
Theodoric is one of the most underappreciated but most fascinating Germanic king of the Medieval period. Does anyone know anything but him that they would like to share.
My vote goes to the Ostrogoths out of interest.
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Most of my knowledge of Theodoric comes from a novel: Raptor by Gary Jennings. Kind of formulaic and a bit too much emphasis on sex, but otherwise it's an enjoyable, well researched portrait of late 5th century and early 6th century Europe, with an emphasis on Theodoric.
I agree though in principle: Theodoric is a figure that is under-appreciated. He deserves a lot of credit for preserving Roman institutions.
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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Komnenos
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Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 16:35 |
Originally posted by Winterhaze13
Theodoric is one of the most underappreciated but most fascinating Germanic king of the Medieval period. Does anyone know anything but him that they would like to share.
My vote goes to the Ostrogoths out of interest. |
First of all, I have to agree with Winterhaze about Theoderic the Great, for reasons of which some are mentioned here.
Considering all his undoubtable achievements, his reign in Italy had one deciding flaw. In his pursue to leave the superior structures of the established Roman society intact, he implemented a policy of race segregration, not discrimination, in Italy that forbid the two ethnicities, the Ostrogoths and the Romans to inter-marriage. Although the Romans experienced his rule as a somewhat benevolent foreign one, no process of identification occured and after Theoderic's death and as things in the Ostrogoth Kingdom started to go wrong, the Romans tried to free themselves from foreign rule.
The Langobards, a few decades later, didn't repeat that mistalke, the mixed with the indigenous population and preserved their rule for far longer, but eventually disappeared as a distinctive ethnic group.
Anyway, Theoderic the Great, survived as a figure in German national epos (what's the plural of...). He appears briefly in later versions of the Nibelungen Saga as an ally on Attila's (or Etzel) court, but also has his own circle of legends as "Dietrich of Bern", Bern being a Germanised corruption of Ravenna, which is a highly fictional account of his struggles against the Huns and Odocer.
The end of the Ostrogoth Kingdom in Italy is dealt with in a novel "Der Kampf um Rom" by Felix Dahn, a product of German 19th century nationalism, and full of patriotic pathos and evil Byzantines. It was made in the 60s into a highly successful, but also highly awful, two part movie.
To come back to the original question, for being most important for the shaping of Europe after the age of migrations, my vote goes to the Franks as well. Had the question been my favourite Germanic tribe, it would have been the Vandals, the most travelled and adventurous, and most maligned of the lot. The only Germans ever to get a foothold in North-Africa until the highly overrated Rommel got there.
Edited by Komnenos
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 20:22 |
My favourite would also be the Vandals. Although much of their credit must go to their legendary King Gaiseric, the fact is they went further than any Germanic tribe, was the only one to challenge Roman naval supremacy, sacked Rome (always a plus in this period) without wanton destruction or killing and may have grown into a very successful Kingdom had it not been for the brilliance of Belisarius and the ambition of Justinian.
Most important are definitely the Franks, whose civilization was the dominant trend setter and source of much military strength for Western Europe during the middle ages.
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Belisarius
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Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 14:25 |
I like the history of the Saxons, but I believe that the Franks are the
most important. They were the only people to have been able to recreate
as closely as possible the political stablity of the classical Roman
Empire. Their empire gave birth to France, Germany, and some can even
say Italy.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 17:58 |
Originally posted by Belisarius
I like the history of the Saxons, but I believe that the Franks are the most important. They were the only people to have been able to recreate as closely as possible the political stablity of the classical Roman Empire. Their empire gave birth to France, Germany, and some can even say Italy. |
The Franks are a fascinating Germanic tribe. Their ruthless and warlike aggressiveness assured their domination of other tribes, and their adoption of the Gallic-Roman practice of having land-owning retainers (bucellarii) of the chieftain (king), laid the groundwork of feudal social organization, the most important medieval institution.
They certainly were the basis for both France and Germany, but, I think not Italy. The Carolingian "empire" embraced Italy only briefly under Charlemagne, and Italy was never a truly feudal land. The Lombards were much more influential there.
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Degredado
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Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 18:25 |
The Franks are probably the most important group of Germanic peoples, but I still voted for the Suevi. Since their capital was Braga, which is today a Portuguese city, I'm a bit partial to them.
Anyhoo, isn't Theodoric really Dietrich?
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Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas
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Komnenos
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Posted: 22-Sep-2005 at 17:26 |
Originally posted by Degredado
Anyhoo, isn't Theodoric really Dietrich? |
The historical Theodoric is indeed called "Dietrich" in German folklore and epic tales.
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Cywr
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Posted: 22-Sep-2005 at 17:40 |
They certainly were the basis for both France and Germany, but, I think
not Italy. The Carolingian "empire" embraced Italy only briefly under
Charlemagne, and Italy was never a truly feudal land. |
The Normans, who took up the Frankish way of doing things somewhat,
conquered parts of Italy, and introduced it to there, of course in
altered form, and likewise in England, again in altered form.
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Arrrgh!!"
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 22-Sep-2005 at 18:04 |
Originally posted by Cywr
They certainly were the basis for both France and Germany, but, I think not Italy. The Carolingian "empire" embraced Italy only briefly under Charlemagne, and Italy was never a truly feudal land. |
The Normans, who took up the Frankish way of doing things somewhat, conquered parts of Italy, and introduced it to there, of course in altered form, and likewise in England, again in altered form.
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Yes, that is true. The "Franco" Normans introduced feudal institutions into England after 1066, and they also had an effect in Sicily, but not to the same degree. And northern Italy was not as much influenced by feudal institutions. Much of Italy was more influenced by the Church and the clergy and their land wealth; France and Germany more by the landed nobility (knights/dukes). Later, it was commerce in Italy.
By the early Renaissance (late 13th/early 14th c.) Italian towns and merchants, through trade and commerce and staying aloof from the Crusades, were more influential than any landed nobles in Italy. By the 14th c. the city-states were the powers in Italy since they had the money to hire mercenary armies. Nobles hired out as soldiers since soldiering was what they knew how to do. Not too feudal.
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Jazz
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Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 14:33 |
Could one not consider the Lombard invasion of Italy resulting the
fragmenting of Italy an important (and perhaps underrated) event?
It lead to the Pope assume a lot of secular power (as East Roman
authority waned since they were busy fighting the Persians then Arabs
in the East).
How different would have the history of the Catholic chuch been if
Italy had remained politically united and at peace under Constantinople?
Edited by Jazz
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 19:59 |
An interesting point, but if it were not the Lombards then I would
guess another tribe would have invaded to wrest Italy from the control
of the Byzantines. The intensification of the war in the East led
Byzantium to concentrate on their critical territories, especially in
Anatolia. Italy was nice to have, but losing it was not a fatal blow.
Most likely the Germans or Franks would have invaded and taken control,
just as they did centuries later. The monastic movement would become
disgusted with the Empire's control and the reform of the Papacy would
have happened anyway.
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 08:04 |
I would have to choose the Franks for having Germany and France during Charlemagne and
the Normans for their conquering of parts of Italy and the British Isle
making it actually a part of Europe. No other Germanic tribe conquered
this much area at one time. So, my vote goes to the Franks.
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Komnenos
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Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 12:29 |
Originally posted by Jazz
Could one not consider the Lombard invasion of Italy resulting the
fragmenting of Italy an important (and perhaps underrated) event?
It lead to the Pope assume a lot of secular power (as East Roman
authority waned since they were busy fighting the Persians then Arabs
in the East).
How different would have the history of the Catholic chuch been if
Italy had remained politically united and at peace under Constantinople?
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At the point of the Great Schism of 1054, Italy was still politically united under the German Salian Emperors who at least in North and Middle Italy, including in Rome and over the papacy, could assert their authority. If anything, the schism was amongst many other reasons, the result of the claims of ecclesial and political supremacy over Christianity and Europe of two strong and united rivals, the HRE and the East-Roman Empire, with their respective Church authorities.
As my fellow Emperor stated above, the wish that Italy had remained under Byzantine control was somewhat illusionary.The logistics of defending the penininsula against the various Northern invaders proved in the end too difficult.
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